Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 9 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Roll of the Match Director. Wanna ask a serious question? Can you explain to me how it is the role of the match director to personally judge each shooter, whether on or away from the firing line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: Can you explain to me how it is the role of the match director to personally judge each shooter, whether on or away from the firing line? You appear to be lost as to how matches are run. Perhaps you should reference the available handbooks that are available to all. Oy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalope Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 18 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: Or it could show that SASS needs to make a priority to streamline the RO training program, make renewal/refresher requirements mandatory to maintain RO status, AND make it easier for folks to be trained/certified. + 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 11 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said: Tell me again why I bother going to the unloading table if I have made the pistols safe elsewhere on the stage? Can we just agree to not use this language that doesn't appear in the sass rulebooks? They are transitioned from and the holstering is in fact the default condition of staging and abandonment. When you finish with the rifle and shotgun they both have their own default stipulated conditions of abandonment. They aren't "made safe" on the stage, but rather they are later demonstrated to be unloaded at the unloading table. Which should be manned by a person who is knowledgeable about different types of firearms not some goof that can count to six. I totally agree with you that the term "make safe" is useless in stage instructions. That being said, you and I aren't the only people in the world who write stages. As has been pointed out, some folks out of habit or just because they think they're adding an extra measure of safety do include that statement in their stage instructions. This thread is simply clarifying how to properly comply with those instructions and remain within the SASS rules. As to your question about not needing to go to the unloading table, you're confusing two separate instructions. Within the SASS rules you have a condition called "safe for movement". This applies to both pistols, the rifle and the shotgun. It is enforced during the stage and does NOT relieve you from going to the unloading table and showing all guns clear. "Safe for movement" and "clear" are two separate and distinct conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalope Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 41 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: You appear to be lost as to how matches are run. Perhaps you should reference the available handbooks that are available to all. Oy... Since he's one of our local RO instructors and was instrumental in the successes of the Wartrace Regulators TN State championship matches and the range officer of 2018 Ambush at Cavern Cove, I'm pretty sure Branchwater Jack knows a little bit about how matches are run. Just sayin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 18 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: You appear to be lost as to how matches are run. Perhaps you should reference the available handbooks that are available to all. Oy... I asked: 12 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: What about all the other ROs working the match? You taking personal responsibility to make sure they get all the calls right for everyone else so it doesn't negatively impact you? and you replied: 11 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Roll of the Match Director. Wanna ask a serious question? Match directors adjudicate any protests brought to them and work to ensure that the issues that are brought to them are handled appropriately. It is not their job, however, to ensure that all the calls that should be made during a march are actually made. Personal observation has seen calls missed, called inappropriately, or that were not called by ROs and/or PMs because they were misinformed or did not take the personal responsibility to ensure that they were current with the rules as you expect for them to be qualified. I have seen three spotters and the TO call a shooter for a P when they deserved 10 misses. Seen PMs non-call a shooter sitting at his cart getting ready for the next stage when they still hadn't been to the unloading table for the stage they are on because, "the penalty didn't kick in until the loading table at the next stage." These type things never make it out of the posse level to be protested to the Match Director. They are just not called or called incorrectly. And those non-calls do negatively impact you. I have even known some fine, outstanding members of SASS who are full of personal responsibility miss a call and reluctantly awarded a shooter with a P when they should have been awarded a SDQ: It happens. Whether the infraction was just missed, we just forgot that rule, or we just didn't know to apply the rule in this situation....it happens... The more important role of the match director is to ensure that qualified officials are in place in all competition areas to help make sure that the right calls are made in the first place. I just filled out a registration form for an upcoming regional match and all it asks is if you are RO qualified. I am sure that the Match Director is wanting to make sure that he has enough qualified ROs on each posse. However, in our current RO Training program, an RO who took a class 15 years ago and has not cracked a book or kept up with changes from his TG or the wire since he first took the class is just as qualified as someone who took an RO refresher course or took the class for the first time last month. You expect folks to take personal responsibility to continue their education to remain qualified when it is obvious to you that, "there are clubs that don't give a dang about SASS rules." Why not put in place a mechanism to remove the certification for individuals who do not take the personal responsibility to remain current and provide a better and easier way to train people to be current? Outside of the professional world, we do require this level of our RO Instructors in order for them to maintain their qualifications. We are also supposed to be doing this with our TGs, although it is not enforced. Why not do this with ROI and ROII certifications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Jackalope said: Since he's one of our local RO instructors and was instrumental in the successes of the Wartrace Regulators TN State championship matches and the range officer of 2018 Ambush at Cavern Cove, I'm pretty sure Branchwater Jack knows a little bit about how matches are run. Just sayin'... So the purpose of his questions are.. what? Just sayin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: I asked: and you replied: Match directors adjudicate any protests brought to them and work to ensure that the issues that are brought to them are handled appropriately. It is not their job, however, to ensure that all the calls that should be made during a march are actually made. Personal observation has seen calls missed, called inappropriately, or that were not called by ROs and/or PMs because they were misinformed or did not take the personal responsibility to ensure that they were current with the rules as you expect for them to be qualified. I have seen three spotters and the TO call a shooter for a P when they deserved 10 misses. Seen PMs non-call a shooter sitting at his cart getting ready for the next stage when they still hadn't been to the unloading table for the stage they are on because, "the penalty didn't kick in until the loading table at the next stage." These type things never make it out of the posse level to be protested to the Match Director. They are just not called or called incorrectly. And those non-calls do negatively impact you. I have even known some fine, outstanding members of SASS who are full of personal responsibility miss a call and reluctantly awarded a shooter with a P when they should have been awarded a SDQ: It happens. Whether the infraction was just missed, we just forgot that rule, or we just didn't know to apply the rule in this situation....it happens... The more important role of the match director is to ensure that qualified officials are in place in all competition areas to help make sure that the right calls are made in the first place. I just filled out a registration form for an upcoming regional match and all it asks is if you are RO qualified. I am sure that the Match Director is wanting to make sure that he has enough qualified ROs on each posse. However, in our current RO Training program, an RO who took a class 15 years ago and has not cracked a book or kept up with changes from his TG or the wire since he first took the class is just as qualified as someone who took an RO refresher course or took the class for the first time last month. You expect folks to take personal responsibility to continue their education to remain qualified when it is obvious to you that, "there are clubs that don't give a dang about SASS rules." Why not put in place a mechanism to remove the certification for individuals who do not take the personal responsibility to remain current and provide a better and easier way to train people to be current? Outside of the professional world, we do require this level of our RO Instructors in order for them to maintain their qualifications. We are also supposed to be doing this with our TGs, although it is not enforced. Why not do this with ROI and ROII certifications? Lets just say that I've sat in on a ROII class and heard the RO instructor tell folks that sometimes one must overlook rules violations in order to not come off as a "hardass". There's your well trained and up to date instructor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 It is funny how many started to use the phrase "make safe" to actually allow freedom as t where the gun would be restaged. But as Creeker and others have stated, it is better to use a few extra words to say what you really want to happen on the stage. Such as,"restage long guns on either table" etc. As Phantom and others have well stated, the phrase "make safe" is not actually helpful. And SASS standards generally cover things. How do I make my gun safe? If I put it on a table, it could be knocked off. Someone could walk in front of it. If I put it on the ground, someone will trip over it. And it is still a gun, so how to make it "safe". Should I dismantle it? If so, it could still be used as a club.. Such a quandary. Etc, etc. So just spell out the options you want to give the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said: It is funny how many started to use the phrase "make safe" to actually allow freedom as t where the gun would be restaged. But as Creeker and others have stated, it is better to use a few extra words to say what you really want to happen on the stage. Such as,"restage long guns on either table" etc. As Phantom and others have well stated, the phrase "make safe" is not actually helpful. And SASS standards generally cover things. How do I make my gun safe? If I put it on a table, it could be knocked off. Someone could walk in front of it. If I put it on the ground, someone will trip over it. And it is still a gun, so how to make it "safe". Should I dismantle it? If so, it could still be used as a club.. Such a quandary. Etc, etc. So just spell out the options you want to give the shooter. Actually, I don't tell the shooter anything regarding restaging unless there is an absolute reason to do so (usually a safety issue that isn't readily apparent). I like shooters to have a choice on how to restage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 14 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Lets just say that I've sat in on a ROII class and heard the RO instructor tell folks that sometimes one must overlook rules violations in order to not come off as a "hardass". There's your well trained and up to date instructor... I am sorry to hear that you had such a bad ROII class experience. You may wish to relate your experience to the Chief RO instructor for your region and/or a member of the RO Committee. That being said, experiences like yours are why I commented that we need to streamline and standardize the training to ensure that all our ROs are getting the same, quality education in addition to making it easier to get it in the first place. The ROI and ROII PowerPoint presentations are a step in the right direction in standardizing the content presentation. The Wild Bunch RO training program takes that one step forward by recording the audio track to go along with the slide portion to even standardize if further. This recorded audio track prevents RO instructors from interjecting things that may not be part of the rules as you experienced in your ROII class. Why not take this one step further and make that audio and slide deck available online, perhaps with some example videos, so that anyone can take the personal responsibility to watch it, at their convenience, as one of the steps in order to become certified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: I am sorry to hear that you had such a bad ROII class experience. You may wish to relate your experience to the Chief RO instructor for your region and/or a member of the RO Committee. That being said, experiences like yours are why I commented that we need to streamline and standardize the training to ensure that all our ROs are getting the same, quality education in addition to making it easier to get it in the first place. The ROI and ROII PowerPoint presentations are a step in the right direction in standardizing the content presentation. The Wild Bunch RO training program takes that one step forward by recording the audio track to go along with the slide portion to even standardize if further. This recorded audio track prevents RO instructors from interjecting things that may not be part of the rules as you experienced in your ROII class. Why not take this one step further and make that audio and slide deck available online, perhaps with some example videos, so that anyone can take the personal responsibility to watch it, at their convenience, as one of the steps in order to become certified? I didn't have a bad experience as I was just surveying the class. I'm not going elaborate on this specific example... But will simply reiterate my belief that taking personal responsibility is all we have. The material is out there... We aren't being paid as this is a volunteer based activity... So complexity will not work. Thank God that the rewards for this game are not monetary. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I didn't have a bad experience as I was just surveying the class. I'm not going elaborate on this specific example... But will simply reiterate my belief that taking personal responsibility is all we have. The material is out there... We aren't being paid as this is a volunteer based activity... So complexity will not work. Thank God that the rewards for this game are not monetary. Phantom Well, then, I am sorry about the bad experience that those who were taking the class for the first time had and just wish there was someone who would take a little personal responsibility to, perhaps, see that the type of experience and instruction that they had was better for those taking it in the future. I totally agree with you, though, that the current system we have in place is, at times, too complex and, at times, does not work. I guess I just refuse to throw up my hands in defeat and not try to think that there are better, less complex ways to solve the problems for the future as I continue to actively work to help solve these issues in the present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: Well, then, I am sorry about the bad experience that those who were taking the class for the first time had and just wish there was someone who would take a little personal responsibility to, perhaps, see that the type of experience and instruction that they had was better for those taking it in the future. I totally agree with you, though, that the current system we have in place is, at times, too complex and, at times, does not work. I guess I just refuse to throw up my hands in defeat and not try to think that there are better, less complex ways to solve the problems for the future as I continue to actively work to help solve these issues in the present. I don't see my position as advocating throwing up one's hands. Clubs can and should do whatever they can to promote understanding of the rules of SASS. Promote revisiting the manuals... Make sure they have someone that is well versed in the rules to resolve match issues, etc,etc. Phantom PS: I know you want the best for this game... We just might have a small disagreement on how to achieve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Carolina Gunslinger- I only shoot cowboy at this point. I am not trying to argue with anybody. I read the rule book and I often go back to it to make sure I know the rules. I just tried to say what is out there. Do all SASS affiliated clubs follow all of the SASS rules. NO. If I want to shoot there I follow the stages as written and explained and then go home with a smile on my face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 With regard to RO certified folks being on the posse, that's all well and good if they are serving as an official when they make a call. Too often it seems as though the peanut gallery is asked for an opinion when something happens. That just makes me cringe as it diminishes the call from being made by the best point of view to the mob opinion when half of the ones speaking up weren't paying attention at the time. The extended deliberation for calls on something that happened on the stage makes the match staff look incompetent. Yes something just happened that incurs a penalty. Yes you're going to have to decide the call. No I'm not going to help you in any way. You want to hold the timer? You have to know the rules. The current rulebook situation is confusing for crossover shooters. Want to shoot the match? Read the shooter's handbook...WRONG. There are things you want to know in the RO handbooks as well. Why not just have one book and call it...(etherial harmonizing)the rule book? Do away with the complexity and write the rules so that the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Increase match efficiency by mandating a final call charging any penalties for the stage from the match official side must be made within two minutes of the offense or it's a no call. The appeal is on the competitor from there. These subjective calls made hours later are childlike and impossible to respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 6 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I don't see my position as advocating throwing up one's hands. Clubs can and should do whatever they can to promote understanding of the rules of SASS. Promote revisiting the manuals... Make sure they have someone that is well versed in the rules to resolve match issues, etc,etc. Phantom PS: I know you want the best for this game... We just might have a small disagreement on how to achieve it. I'm with you in that the club has a lot to do with promoting and mentoring good, well trained ROs - including helping them continue and further their education, training, and experiences. With many clubs, it begins with the attitude of the club officers and their attitude towards the rules that trickles down to the membership. One club that I belong to, for example, has been including their own WTC question and answer bit in the bi-weekly e-mails that they send out. Some are current hot button topics from the wire, some are issues that they have seen at the range, and they can always default to questions from the ROI and ROII exams. It is SASS, though, that certifies ROs and not the clubs, and an area where many believe that we are falling short. The purpose of the SASS RO Program is to "Develop SASS Range Operations Safety Officers who possess the knowledge, skills, and attitude essential to ensure safety and consistency at all SASS Cowboy Action Shooting Matches." If you personally see "that there are clubs that don't give a dang about SASS rules," then are clubs doing enough to ensure that the shooter's experience is consistent shooting from club to club? Can we trust them to do that? Is it really their responsibility? We all know of clubs whose TGs don't keep up with rule changes, discussions on the wire, or even what's going on in the TG forum - let alone communicating those issues to their club or voicing their club's opinion back to SASS. There are TGs who are currently advocating some streamlining and updating to the TG Summit process as well - especially with the annual convention being yet another relic from a bygone era. Furthermore, if it is only up to the clubs to do what they can to promote understanding of the rules of SASS, then why have the SASS RO program in the first place? If we are to hold to the goal of the SASS RO Program, how does SASS ensure that their certified ROs have current knowledge and not knowledge of the rules from whenever it was that they last took an RO class in order to achieve the goal of ensuring that there is consistency at all SASS Cowboy Action Shooting Matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Look, one of the most error prone people at a match, when it comes to making calls, are folks that just took an RO course... So classes are not much more than an introduction to the rules. If folks don't go through the manual, the classes are meaningless. SASS has given us the tools already. Ask we have to do is use those tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 So, how do we verify that folks have used those tools? I see where you want to rely on personal responsibility, but don't you think that there needs to be a degree of accountability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: And, how do we verify that folks have used those tools? I don't know... Tattoo a steer head on their fricken forehead??? I've come to the conclusion that I don't want you to devise a plan of action... Cheers! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I don't know... Tattoo a steer head on their fricken forehead??? I've come to the conclusion that I don't want you to devise a plan of action... Cheers! Phantom So, what is your plan? You obviously don't like mine, although you haven't hear it yet, but I digress... I see where you want to rely on personal responsibility, but you don't think that there needs to be a degree of accountability. I understand that. That is what we have been doing since we moved to the current program. You think that all is going well, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt Laredo Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 I've seen "make safe" many times in stage writing be used for the long guns, never had anyone be confused by it. It's just a short term that can describe the many ways of disposing of the long guns when you are done with them, such as place on table, place vertical, bring with you to the next position, etc. I think it is a useful phrase in stage writing. It gives the shooter as many "safe" options as they can come up with for that stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 14 hours ago, Colt Laredo said: I've seen "make safe" many times in stage writing be used for the long guns, never had anyone be confused by it. It's just a short term that can describe the many ways of disposing of the long guns when you are done with them, such as place on table, place vertical, bring with you to the next position, etc. I think it is a useful phrase in stage writing. It gives the shooter as many "safe" options as they can come up with for that stage. Why not say nothing at all about how to restage the long guns??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Why not say nothing at all about how to restage the long guns??? Because someone figures out a better way and that makes other folks feel lesser. Case in point: Ricky Birdsall slide This happened at a non sass match and it was completely legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I like,,, stage and restage long guns any where, and you don't have to tell people to holster,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I've found that there are many shooters that get confused when there's little verbiage. However, I'm with Phantom, less is actually more and gives me more freedom to shoot a scenario as I see it in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 I like shooting late,, and watch the looks on peoples' faces when I do something they didn't think of doing,,,, I used to work piece work,, love figuring out shortcuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 I don't think there's many shortcuts left in sass. Stand here shoot ten times. Move here shoot ten times. Move here and shoot however many shotgun shells it takes. Rifle can never be last. So many rules limit stage diversity. I have some ideas that might work though. The challenge is how to make people move with the pistols. How does one spread ten shots over a stage with enough movement? Does anyone ever do one and two gun stages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt Laredo Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 My home club has a different style in our Annual Match every year. We have stages that are just pistol, just rifle, or just shotgun. The pistol and rifle stages require multiple reloads each and movement. The shotgun stage has lots of targets and flyers and movement downrange. There are also standard stages and one stand and deliver with guns on the table. It creates a nice change of pace from a regular match and awards are given for individual stages. Lots of fun to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Colt Laredo, how do you handle cap and ball pistols? Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 30 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said: Colt Laredo, how do you handle cap and ball pistols? Ike If a particular stage requires a one shot reload, the sixth chamber of percussion revolvers may be charged at the bench and then capped “on the clock” either before the first round is fired or after the last round is fired. A complete reload for percussion revolver shooters is handled by staging a loaded, uncapped revolver down range or switching uncapped cylinders and capping on the clock. SHB pg 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 I get the one shot reload. So if you shoot 58 Remmies and have extra cylinders or won many pistols you could compete? Rugers, can't buy extra cylinders Navy and Army Colts taking out the wedge is a challenge. I guess just bring a lot of pistols, 2 sets? Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major BS Walker Regulator Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Seems this WTC has gone all over the place. For a while there I thought it might be locked out before I got the info to follow up. I had to wait for the Match Director to get back to town today to get a copy of the stage scores to verify. So here is the scoop. I was at this match and was the first time I had ever been to this Cowboy Club. I was spotting at that time during stage four and I was the first one to call a P for not holstering the pistol before the shotgun was fired. One other spotter also called this. When the TO turned and said we don't call a penalty on staging pistols here, he had momentarily forgot that pistols were not last until I pointed that out. A brief discussion occurred, over was it a P or a minor safety. The results as was written on the actual score sheet was a P. There was also one miss on that stage so the results for stage four was one miss and one procedural for not re-holstering the pistol. Mr. Lawman was accessed the proper penalty's. All officers did their jobs correctly and I will be more than happy to shoot at that club again. Now, lets all shake hands and have a cup of coffee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 52 minutes ago, Major B. S. Walker said: Now, lets all shake hands and have a cup of coffee. It's 2200 at the time of this post...unless there's a serious tincture of whiskey in said coffee...no thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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