Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: PWB: Not trying to be difficult here, just learning the in's and out's of safety procedures. My confusion comes from determining if there is indeed a "difference" between a loaded rifle and a loaded shotgun (in the case of a pump action with the action closed) leaving the LT. If shooter leaves the LT with his rifle in his left hand (hammer down, lever closed), and his Win 97 in his left hand (hammer cocked, action closed), in this scenario, the TO has no idea whether (A) the rifle has had the action cycled, leaving a round in the chamber, thus a LOADED rifle, or (B) the shotgun with the action closed, doesn't have a round loaded in it, thus a LOADED shotgun. Both cases appear to be the same. To resolve the shotgun issue, shooter would have to open the action to reveal no shell, and likewise, shooter would have to open the action of the rifle, and if a cartridge gets ejected, it was loaded as well. Kit Cool, it your scenario, there are 2 separate situations of concern. (first of all, you have BOTH longguns in the same hand). Anyhow, the rifle is loaded....or atleast should be. The hammer being in the cocked mode violates the rule for the SDQ. If the SG were also loaded with a round, then a big penalty would also be assessed. BUT, because the SG is presumed empty and the TO verifies such, then that is were the 'No Call' becomes effective. Sometimes carrying a 97 can prompt it to close, especially if the shooter is carrying it by the forearm. I better start reading more and typing less or else I'll start confusing meowndangself..... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Jack Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 27 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: . .. SHB pp.43-44 The SDQ penalty for moving from the LT to the stage with a cocked RIFLE is for “moving with a cocked, LOADED firearm". It is assumed that the shooter LOADED a rifle at the LOADING table…the shotgun usually starts EMPTY (except under extremely rare occasions or as in WB). Ok I understand now thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Widder: Thank you again for the clarifications on my posts. (I tend to type faster than I can think) Still trying to get this all sorted out, so I can complete my flowchart: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 34 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: . .. SHB pp.43-44 The SDQ penalty for moving from the LT to the stage with a cocked RIFLE is for “moving with a cocked, LOADED firearm". It is assumed that the shooter LOADED a rifle at the LOADING table…the shotgun usually starts EMPTY (except under extremely rare occasions or as in WB). 14 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said: Kit Cool, it your scenario, there are 2 separate situations of concern. (first of all, you have BOTH longguns in the same hand). Anyhow, the rifle is loaded....or atleast should be. The hammer being in the cocked mode violates the rule for the SDQ. If the SG were also loaded with a round, then a big penalty would also be assessed. BUT, because the SG is presumed empty and the TO verifies such, then that is were the 'No Call' becomes effective. Sometimes carrying a 97 can prompt it to close, especially if the shooter is carrying it by the forearm. I better start reading more and typing less or else I'll start confusing meowndangself..... ..........Widder 8 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Jack said: Ok I understand now thank you! Thanks to everyone who worked on this (Yusta, Widder, PWB) and like Jack, I now understand the process much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 12 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: Widder: Thank you again for the clarifications on my posts. (I tend to type faster than I can think) Still trying to get this all sorted out, so I can complete my flowchart: Kit Cool, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but your Leaving Loading Table Guidelines FlowChart is lacking the 'Brown boot/Black Boot criteria..... P.S. - that is funny. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Hi Folks, I'll give you a tip for reading WTC threads. I found this the hard way. Once PWB has answered with the correct call, read subsequent posts and note which posts he has liked. That is not to say I still understand every call and PWB reply. It just helps. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said: As usual, Yusta has the 'common sense' safe approach. Widder - you are indeed a kind man ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Jack Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said: Hi Folks, I'll give you a tip for reading WTC threads. I found this the hard way. Once PWB has answered with the correct call, read subsequent posts and note which posts he has liked. That is not to say I still understand every call and PWB reply. It just helps. Regards, Allie Allie, I understand what you are saying, this is the first time I have ever responded to a WTC. I think this one was a big curveball for a bunch of people due to the wording in the rules. I hope to make a RO class soon and want to truly understand why calls are made, on his last post he added "assumed" and bingo I got it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoDrawers Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 And now I know the answer. Thanks for the WTC post, SilverRings. Thanks for the clarification post, PaleWolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 while I'll definitely follow PWB ruling, I think its not consistent with other rules about moving with guns. With action closed, and hammer back, nobody has any way of knowing if there is a round in the chamber or not. Granted, not supposed to be, but no way to know for sure. It just seems rule ought to be same for rifle as shotgun. Rifle is a SDQ as soon as shooter leaves loading table with hammer not fully down. Pistol allows no movement with cocked pistol, loaded or mt. (I had to call a SDQ on a shooter last month when she moved with a cocked pistol, even though I was certain it was empty (unless of course, she had inadvertently loaded 6 rounds) we live and learn, and read these threads to become better informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 3 hours ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: Widder: Thank you again for the clarifications on my posts. (I tend to type faster than I can think) Still trying to get this all sorted out, so I can complete my flowchart: Howdy Kit! Can I get a poster size copy of this, I can't make out the print. btw; I saw Widder corrected you about carrying both long guns in the left hand. Well, about once a month I'll carry both my long guns with my left hand from the ULT to the cart. Only because I forgot my trash bag and my right hand is full of debris that somebody claimed I left behind on the firing line. That's ok though since there is usually some brass mixed in with the grass, twigs, gravel, etc... Some of it is even in a caliber that I load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, CodyMaverick said: Howdy Kit! Can I get a poster size copy of this, I can't make out the print. ...subsequent text removed only to . CodyMaverick: One poster size copy will be PM'd as soon as I get it updated with the "Brown boot/Black boot criteria" that Widder advised I left out. (that criteria appears on my dress code flow chart) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 36 minutes ago, Hoss said: while I'll definitely follow PWB ruling, I think it’s not consistent with other rules about moving with guns. With action closed, and hammer back, nobody has any way of knowing if there is a round in the chamber or not. Granted, not supposed to be, but no way to know for sure. Yes, there is...just OPEN THE ACTION and check. If the SG in the OP was LOADED, the penalty is the same as for a rifle (moving with a cocked/loaded firearm). The shotgun is generally NOT "pre-loaded" at the LT, so the assumption is that there are no rounds in the firearm (unloaded), which can be verified very simply. To reiterate...the "Safe Conditions for Movement" apply during the stage engagement...i.e. after the "beep". It just seems rule ought to be same for rifle as shotgun. It IS if the shotgun is LOADED. Rifle is a SDQ as soon as shooter leaves loading table with hammer not fully down. Pistol allows no movement with cocked pistol, loaded or mt. (I had to call a SDQ on a shooter last month when she moved with a cocked pistol, even though I was certain it was empty (unless of course, she had inadvertently loaded 6 rounds) we live and learn, and read these threads to become better informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 CASE CLOSED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 21 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Understood, it just seems inconsistent to me. If I dropped that unloaded shotgun between the Lt and the line, before the beep, it would be a SDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 30 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: It IS if the shotgun is LOADED. I got my only SDQ to date because of this. We were using stoked shotguns and I left the hammer of my 87 up with closed action. I wasn't used to shooting the 87 in that manner, as it's usually left open and empty. Lesson learned and I haven't done it since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 23 minutes ago, Hoss said: Understood, it just seems inconsistent to me. If I dropped that unloaded shotgun between the Lt and the line, before the beep, it would be a SDQ. The “dropped firearm” rules apply on the FIRING LINE. Quote Firing line – from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table. SHB p.43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarillo Rattler Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 The OP is no different than leaving the LT with a open SxS, which then closes due to inertia or gravity on empty chambers, and is then staged after re-opening. Common sense, it seems. AR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Hoss said: Understood, it just seems inconsistent to me. If I dropped that unloaded shotgun between the Lt and the line, before the beep, it would be a SDQ. You are correct. But that penalty is assessed based on the shooter loosing control of the firearm. If that firearm is loaded, you've bought the farm for the day. Although the rules/guidelines that govern the situation as stated in the OP might seem inconsistent, look at it from another perspective...... The rule is consistent in the manner that Loaded or Unloaded firearms are handled and penalties assessed or, not assessed as the case may be. This has been a great discussion. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 3 hours ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: CASE CLOSED You may be right but I am sensing that some of the worms may have escaped from their tin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 So far in this topic I've read that the SG in question is presumed to be empty and assumed to be unloaded. I believe that we are all aware that if there are going to be any presumptions or assumptions made about the uncertain condition of any firearm, it will be that it is in fact loaded until proven otherwise. Just sayin' As Hoss pointed out, the SxSs close up a lot when being carried or staged and I've never heard anyone ever say anything about it. As long as it is open and empty at either of the tables and when staged before the beep. I don't think I have ever been present when someone carried a 97 to or from the line with the action closed. We have a big match this weekend, maybe I'll talk one of the new guys in to doing it and see how it gets handled. Just Kidding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 23 hours ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: Widder: Thank you for the clarification. Shows how much I know about shotguns other than a SxS. Still lots to learn, but I get learned here on the wire. Well, you weren't 100% correct on the SXS either. Side by sides can be staged cocked. In fact, if you don't have external hammers, they have to be staged cocked. But even with external hammers you can precock them if you wish. Reading this thread made me realize I don't even know how I stage my 87. Do I open it or close it? Maybe I'll pay attention this weekend and figure it out. 18 hours ago, Hoss said: while I'll definitely follow PWB ruling, I think its not consistent with other rules about moving with guns. With action closed, and hammer back, nobody has any way of knowing if there is a round in the chamber or not. Granted, not supposed to be, but no way to know for sure. It just seems rule ought to be same for rifle as shotgun. Rifle is a SDQ as soon as shooter leaves loading table with hammer not fully down. Pistol allows no movement with cocked pistol, loaded or mt. (I had to call a SDQ on a shooter last month when she moved with a cocked pistol, even though I was certain it was empty (unless of course, she had inadvertently loaded 6 rounds) we live and learn, and read these threads to become better informed. Let's compare apples to apples, if you didn't load the rifle and left the LT with the gun cocked, you could show the TO that the gun is unloaded and save yourself a SDQ. The rules seem consistent to me (at least for long guns). There's just a very important distinction between loaded and unloaded guns. The special rule for revolvers makes sense to me too based on the fact that they can be loaded with 6 rounds even if we're not supposed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 6 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said: Well, you weren't 100% correct on the SXS either. Side by sides can be staged cocked. In fact, if you don't have external hammers, they have to be staged cocked. But even with external hammers you can precock them if you wish. .....subsequent text removed only to . Gambler: Would you mind clarifying your statement for me. Speaking specifically about a SxS, when it sets in your gun cart with the action open it indicates an empty firearm. When the SxS then has the action closed, even without being loaded, it becomes a cocked firearm. If I understand your statement, a SxS can be staged in this condition. Shooters don't stage this way, as it requires opening the action to load two shells, which takes time, and that is why it's staged open to expedite loading. Is all the above correct so far? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 11 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: Gambler: Would you mind clarifying your statement for me. Speaking specifically about a SxS, when it sets in your gun cart with the action open it indicates an empty firearm. When the SxS then has the action closed, even without being loaded, it becomes a cocked firearm. If I understand your statement, a SxS can be staged in this condition. Shooters don't stage this way, as it requires opening the action to load two shells, which takes time, and that is why it's staged open to expedite loading. Is all the above correct so far? Thanks. No. A side by side with internal hammers cocks when you break open the action. If you are dubious of this, I have an exercise you can do to prove it to yourself. Open your shotgun and make sure it's empty, then point it safely downrange and pull the triggers. When you open it again, pay attention to how much effort it takes to open it completely. Then close it and open it again without pulling the triggers you should notice it takes less effort. If your gun has been slicked up it might not be as obvious, but the difference should be noticeable. My wife's shotgun will fall open with just gravity if the it's already cocked. That extra effort is due to the hammers getting cocked. Hope that doesn't come off as talking down to you, but it sounded like you thought the hammers got cocked when the gun closes. Of course, I'm assuming you have a 'normal' shotgun. There might be an oddball variety that cocks on closing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 17 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: Speaking specifically about a SxS, when it sets in your gun cart with the action open it indicates an empty firearm. When the SxS then has the action closed, even without being loaded, it becomes a cocked firearm. Cocked firearm is one in which the hammers are in position to fire IF the firearm were closed. It indicates the position of hammers, internal or external. Not the condition of the action - open or closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 24 minutes ago, Yusta B. said: Cocked firearm is one in which the hammers are in position to fire IF the firearm were closed. It indicates the position of hammers, internal or external. Not the condition of the action - open or closed. Just to head off any further discussion about a firearm hammer being in the "safety notch"... Quote Cocked – hammer not fully down (full, half-cock or safety notch). SHB p.42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said: No. A side by side with internal hammers cocks when you break open the action. If you are dubious of this, I have an exercise you can do to prove it to yourself. Open your shotgun and make sure it's empty, then point it safely downrange and pull the triggers. When you open it again, pay attention to how much effort it takes to open it completely. Then close it and open it again without pulling the triggers you should notice it takes less effort. If your gun has been slicked up it might not be as obvious, but the difference should be noticeable. My wife's shotgun will fall open with just gravity if the it's already cocked. That extra effort is due to the hammers getting cocked. Hope that doesn't come off as talking down to you, but it sounded like you thought the hammers got cocked when the gun closes. Of course, I'm assuming you have a 'normal' shotgun. There might be an oddball variety that cocks on closing. Gambler: Well, looks like I've got some homework to do. (haven't had any of that since College .) My SxS is a Stoeger Coach Gun Supreme and has had absolutely no work done to it. (still has it's safety and the throats have not yet been honed.*) So the SxS sitting in my cart with the action open.... ...is an unloaded, "cocked" firearm, not unlike the Winchester 97 from the OP with the hammers cocked. The only difference is whether the action on either long gun is open or closed. Therefore, when the TO requested the shooter to open the action on the 97, he was verifying that it was still an unloaded firearm. This would be no different then if shooter was carrying a SxS with the action closed, to stage it that way, in which case the TO would do the same and request the action be opened to ensure it had not been loaded. It would be the shooters decision as to whether to close the action again and stage the SxS in that condition if that was their original intention. I believe talking this through has made this issue a lot clearer than it was when the OP was read. As for your statement, it was never taken as anything but educational/informative. * (It has always been my goal as a new shooter to experiment with shooting all of my firearms as "out of the box" training on transitions, gun handling, accuracy, etc. Once I hit a plateau, these times become my base data. I then plan to make sequential upgrades to my firearms, noting the difference each upgrade makes to my time. Kind of a different, analytical approach to better understand how various processes, and/or upgrades can make for a shooter. (Granted they will only apply to my abilities). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 8 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: * (It has always been my goal as a new shooter to experiment with shooting all of my firearms as "out of the box" training on transitions, gun handling, accuracy, etc. Once I hit a plateau, these times become my base data. I then plan to make sequential upgrades to my firearms, noting the difference each upgrade makes to my time. Kind of a different, analytical approach to better understand how various processes, and/or upgrades can make for a shooter. (Granted they will only apply to my abilities). That's a pretty neat idea ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Saywut Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Geez, all these things we have to watch out for at the loading table. Can I just move to the stage with all my firearms unloaded, cylinders removed from the pistols, and bolts out of both rifle and shotgun, and start reassembling and loading everything when the buzzer goes off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 1 minute ago, Sgt. Saywut said: Geez, all these things we have to watch out for at the loading table. Can I just move to the stage with all my firearms unloaded, cylinders removed from the pistols, and bolts out of both rifle and shotgun, and start reassembling and loading everything when the buzzer goes off? Sgt. Saywut: Tried to give you multiple 's on this one; however, the system would not allow it, so here they are: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 1 minute ago, Sgt. Saywut said: Geez, all these things we have to watch out for at the loading table. Can I just move to the stage with all my firearms unloaded, cylinders removed from the pistols, and bolts out of both rifle and shotgun, and start reassembling and loading everything when the buzzer goes off? That sounds like the start of a new unofficial category. What should we call it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Howdy Kit Cool. If you get a chance, check out the SHB, pg 14-15 and see the info on both: Safety & Handling Conventions and..... Safe Conditions during a course of Fire. You will find info on these for each of our firearms..... Pistols, Rifles, and Shotgun. Also helpful info is in the ROI manual: 'Changing Locations'. Sorry, I don't remember the page #. (and as Jefro mentioned above, I hope I'm reading the latest issue) ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 38 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said: That sounds like the start of a new unofficial category. What should we call it? A scene from Silverado comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said: Gambler: Well, looks like I've got some homework to do. (haven't had any of that since College .) My SxS is a Stoeger Coach Gun Supreme and has had absolutely no work done to it. (still has it's safety and the throats have not yet been honed.*) So the SxS sitting in my cart with the action open.... ...is an unloaded, "cocked" firearm, not unlike the Winchester 97 from the OP with the hammers cocked. The only difference is whether the action on either long gun is open or closed. Therefore, when the TO requested the shooter to open the action on the 97, he was verifying that it was still an unloaded firearm. This would be no different then if shooter was carrying a SxS with the action closed, to stage it that way, in which case the TO would do the same and request the action be opened to ensure it had not been loaded. It would be the shooters decision as to whether to close the action again and stage the SxS in that condition if that was their original intention. I believe talking this through has made this issue a lot clearer than it was when the OP was read. As for your statement, it was never taken as anything but educational/informative. * (It has always been my goal as a new shooter to experiment with shooting all of my firearms as "out of the box" training on transitions, gun handling, accuracy, etc. Once I hit a plateau, these times become my base data. I then plan to make sequential upgrades to my firearms, noting the difference each upgrade makes to my time. Kind of a different, analytical approach to better understand how various processes, and/or upgrades can make for a shooter. (Granted they will only apply to my abilities). PLEASE-ASAP, sign up for RO1 and RO2 classes as this will then all come into 'focus' for you. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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