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Silver Rings SASS # 27466

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The stage is a shooter's choice, guns in any order, from any position and gun can be in hand. Shooter leaves loading table with his Win 97 shotgun with the action closed and hammer cocked.  TO stops him before he stages the shotgun and points out the closed action and hammer being back.

 

What is the call?

 

SR

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1 hour ago, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said:

Thanks PB, the only thing I had found was SDQ for moving with the action closed and hammer cocked.

 

SR

 

The "Safe Conditions for Movement" rules and penalties apply "...while moving through a stage..."

REF: SHB p.15

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5 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

The "Safe Conditions for Movement" rules and penalties apply "...while moving through a stage..."

REF: SHB p.15

PaleWolf I have a question about this. I am not an RO as of yet but would like to become one soon and trying to become  knowable all of the rules. I am confused with this call due to the fact of the call given for a rifle. How is this different then a 73 being cocked on an empty chamber when moving from the loading table? If I remember correctly the 73 would be a SDQ correct, so with a 97 shouldn't it be the same? 

 

This is what I found in SHB, I hope you can see why I am confused. 

  1. A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only:

    • -  Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.

    • -  Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action

      closed.

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Don't want to speak for PaleWolf, but I think the difference being the '73 is loaded even though there is not one in the chamber and the '97 should be unloaded unless this was Wild Bunch. 

 

IMHO

Randy

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Pards,

There are 'conditions' associated with these rules.   One key word is 'loaded' and another key phrase used in these rules is..."moving thru a stage".

 

With the rifle being cocked, it is loaded when we move from the loading table.

With the SG, opening the action and showing its empty negates any penalty.

"Moving thru a stage" conditions are different than moving from the loading table.

 

Anyhow, thats how I understand these rules/guidelines.

 

..........Widder

 

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24 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Pards,

There are 'conditions' associated with these rules.   One key word is 'loaded' and another key phrase used in these rules is..."moving thru a stage".

 

With the rifle being cocked, it is loaded when we move from the loading table.

With the SG, opening the action and showing its empty negates any penalty.

"Moving thru a stage" conditions are different than moving from the loading table.

 

Anyhow, thats how I understand these rules/guidelines.

 

..........Widder

 

I kinda understand, but the rule is saying hammer down on empty chamber if it is cocked then what? Not trying to cause a fuss just looking for clarification the way I read that it should be a SDQ. 

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This is my confusion also...

In my post a while back "Just Thinkin"

It seems 2 different calls.. 

when a shooter deliberately throws a live round 

into the chamber of a staged '97 with hammer cocked? No hands on? No call..

But a rifle accidentally staged with hammer cocked? SDQ

Both long guns are now staged, loaded with hammers cocked?

 

Rance ;)

Sorry.. Not meaning to hijack the thread..

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10 hours ago, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said:

The stage is a shooter's choice, guns in any order, from any position and gun can be in hand. Shooter leaves loading table with his Win 97 shotgun with the action closed and hammer cocked.  TO stops him before he stages the shotgun and points out the closed action and hammer being back.

 

What is the call?

 

SR

 

9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

LOADED = SDQ

UNLOADED = NO CALL...open action & stage 

 

If I might back up to the beginning to clarify PWB's first response to the OP:

I'm reading his response as stating that since the TO informed shooter before he staged his firearms, that (1) If the shooter now opens the action and lowers the hammer showing the TO that the shotgun is unloaded, then its a NO CALL and he can then proceed to stage the shotgun; however, (2) If the shooter opens the action and the shotgun is loaded, then it is a SDQ.

Do I at least have that process correct?

 

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6 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

I'm a little lost as well........he was leaving the loading table right? Not yet started the stage? 

 

Cowboy:

    That's how I read it.

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In the SHB, there are descriptions that cover 'Safety & Handling Conventions'    and, separate from that are the  'Safe Conditions during a Course of Fire'.   

 

In the ROI manual, there are rules that govern 'Changing Location',  which I think is in reference to being 'during the course of fire'.   (I hope I understand that correctly).

 

And then, there is the SHB that addresses some Loading Table guidelines.

 

I admit that I can misread and get confused with rules just as many others do, but its my understanding that there is a difference in moving from the loading table with a loaded rifle/hammer cocked than it is with the SG (empty)/hammer cocked.

 

AND...as noted by Kit Cool,  the SG apparently never left the shooters hand before correcting the cocked hammer situation.

 

This a good topic because it makes me read and try to understand our rules/guidelines better......(and then holler 'HELP PWB)..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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17 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

..previous text removed to 59f09c0be2d74_SavethePlanet-RESIZED.jpg.fbe2d84ddcdc3861910800c033098403.jpg only.

 

AND...as noted by Kit Cool,  the SG apparently never left the shooters hand before correcting the cocked hammer situation.

 

This a good topic because it makes me read and try to understand our rules/guidelines better......(and then holler 'HELP PWB)..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

Widder:

    To expound on this issue, should the shooter go back to the LT to reveal the shotgun status (loaded or unloaded) or would one of the staging tables be allowed?

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15 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

Widder:

    To expound on this issue, should the shooter go back to the LT to reveal the shotgun status (loaded or unloaded) or would one of the staging tables be allowed?

First available space to safely stage firearm. The less moving around with a cocked gun, the less chance chance for a mishap.

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1 hour ago, Cowboy Junky said:

I'm a little lost as well........he was leaving the loading table right? Not yet started the stage? 

I believe so Cowboy Junky, so it he moved from the loading table the way I read it, 

  1. A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only:

    • -  Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.

    • -  Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action

      closed.

  2. He is moving with the hammer cocked, yes it is on an empty chamber but as with the rifle how is the TO to know that it is an empty long gun. It is just like the rifle in this condition, isn't it??

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40 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Jack said:

....previous text removed only to 59f0a319ca71d_SavethePlanet-RESIZED.jpg.b23ef82aba80312191e3e6f09f3991b2.jpg.

  1. He is moving with the hammer cocked, yes it is on an empty chamber but as with the rifle how is the TO to know that it is an empty long gun. It is just like the rifle in this condition, isn't it??

 

I'm with Jack on this one.

The way I see it, is the rifle leaves the LT with the action closed and the hammer down. In this configuration, the only way to discharge a round would be to open/close the action on the rifle - regardless of whether a round is in the chamber. (which would be ejected when the shooter first opens and closes the action thus requiring said shooter to have to reload another round)

The shotgun, in the case of a SxS , leaves the LT with the action open and no rounds in either chambers. In this configuration, the only way to discharge a round would be to physically load 1 or 2 rounds, close the action, and pull the trigger. For a pump action shotgun, such as the Winchester 97 (as mentioned in the OP), it should leave the LT with the hammer down cocked and the action open. as well, same as the rifle. Otherwise, there is no way to tell if (1) the shotgun is loaded (which it should not have any rounds in it), or (2) unloaded. Any shotgun should be staged with hammers down, and action open.

Let me know if this is approach is wrong. (Keep in mind I am talking about long guns leaving the LT and before staging them.)

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36 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

Widder:

    To expound on this issue, should the shooter go back to the LT to reveal the shotgun status (loaded or unloaded) or would one of the staging tables be allowed?

 

19 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

First available space to safely stage firearm. The less moving around with a cocked gun, the less chance chance for a mishap.

 

Based on the OP,  the TO caught the situation and therefore, the TO is in charge of how it should safely be handled.

 

As usual, Yusta has the 'common sense' safe approach.  

 

These are just my opinions based on how I'm reading the rules/guidelines at this time.   PWB (with his vast volume of blue ink) is watching our replies and can probably make better (correct) assessment of these rules/guidelines.

 

..........Widder

 

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6 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

The way I see it, is the rifle leaves the LT with the action closed and the hammer down. In this configuration, the only way to discharge a round would be to open/close the action on the rifle - regardless of whether a round is in the chamber.

Not so - the hammer could be cocked & rifle fired without opening action.

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1 minute ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Kit Cool,

 

The 97 can't have the action open with hammer down.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Widder:

    Thank you for the clarification. Shows how much I know about shotguns other than a SxS. :blush:

    Still lots to learn, but I get learned here on the wire.

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I'm a bit confused on this one too.  The quoted rule says the hammer must be down, or the action open.  I think Randy's point is valid and is the 'common sense' answer, but just as in the thread on staging shotgun ammo the common sense outcome appears to conflict with what the rules say.

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4 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm a bit confused on this one too.  The quoted rule says the hammer must be down, or the action open.  I think Randy's point is valid and is the 'common sense' answer, but just as in the thread on staging shotgun ammo the common sense outcome appears to conflict with what the rules say.

That is what I am saying Cpt.

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3 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Not so - the hammer could be cocked & rifle fired without opening action.

 

Yusta:

    In hindsight, I stand corrected on that issue. :blush:

    My assumption, which may or may not have been correct, is that shooters do not operate the action on their rifle, thus placing a round in the chamber, before leaving the loading table. :o

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5 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

These are just my opinions based on how I'm reading the rules/guidelines at this time.   PWB (with his vast volume of blue ink) is watching our replies and can probably make better (correct) assessment of these rules/guidelines.

 

..........Widder

 

Howdy Widder, I hope so:wacko:...are you using the new Shooters Handbook 22.2 or the the old HB & ROI??:unsure:  Good Luck:)

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Just now, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

Yusta:

    In hindsight, I stand corrected on that issue. :blush:

    My assumption, which may or may not have been correct, is that shooters do not operate the action on their rifle, thus placing a round in the chamber, before leaving the loading table. :o

They're not supposed to - but ya never know ..... :D I've seen it happen, shooter levered rifle to start a string & out popped a round.

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39 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Jack said:

I believe so Cowboy Junky, so it he moved from the loading table the way I read it, 

  1. A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only:

    • -  Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.

    • -  Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action

      closed.

  2. He is moving with the hammer cocked, yes it is on an empty chamber but as with the rifle how is the TO to know that it is an empty long gun. It is just like the rifle in this condition, isn't it??

 

 

Quote

 

Loaded Firearm – Any firearm with unfired round(s) in the action/chamber/magazine.

Location – a physical point on a stage (e.g., “behind the door….”)

 

. ..

Quote

Stage – synonymous with “Course of Fire” from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to the last shot fired.

SHB pp.43-44

The SDQ penalty for moving from the LT to the stage with a cocked  RIFLE is for “moving with a cocked, LOADED firearm".

It is assumed that the shooter LOADED a rifle at the LOADING table…the shotgun usually starts EMPTY (except under extremely rare occasions or as in WB).

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

They're not supposed to - but ya never know ..... :D I've seen it happen, shooter levered rifle to start a string & out popped a round.

 

Yusta:

    Following the bounding ball :huh: - and in that case, there would be no SDQ, just requires the shooter to have to load another round?

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2 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

Yusta:

    Following the bounding ball :huh: - and in that case, there would be no SDQ, just requires the shooter to have to load another round?

Tough call. It's possible, but not very, that the round made it's way from magazine to ejection port. If it happened to me then yes, I would reload a round & await the call, if any, at the end of the stage.

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23 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

. ..

SHB pp.43-44

The SDQ penalty for moving from the LT to the stage with a cocked  RIFLE is for “moving with a cocked, LOADED firearm".

It is assumed that the shooter LOADED a rifle at the LOADING table…the shotgun usually starts EMPTY (except under extremely rare occasions or as in WB).

 

PWB:

    Not trying to be difficult here, just learning the in's and out's of safety procedures.

    My confusion comes from determining if there is indeed a "difference" between a loaded rifle and a loaded shotgun (in the case of a pump action with the action closed) leaving the LT.

    If shooter leaves the LT with his rifle in his left hand (hammer down, lever closed), and his Win 97 in his left right hand (hammer cocked, action closed), in this scenario, the TO has no idea whether (A) the rifle has had the action cycled, leaving a round in the chamber, thus a LOADED rifle, or (B) the shotgun with the action closed, doesn't have a round loaded in it, thus a LOADED shotgun.

    Both cases appear to be the same. To resolve the shotgun issue, shooter would have to open the action to reveal no shell, and likewise, shooter would have to open the action of the rifle, and if a cartridge gets ejected, it was loaded as well.

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A Marlin 1894 can have an empty chamber.   Its possible that the shooter can lever the action open and the round coming onto the carrier can 'bounce' at the same time the front of the bolt is making contact with the rim.   This can turn the cartridge sideways and cause it to hang out the action.

 

To those unfamiliar with this situation, it would seem that the rifle is trying to eject a round from the chamber.   But because there isn't another round on the carrier, this would prove that its a misfeed and not an ejected live round from the chamber.

Its doesn't happen often, but it can happen..... particularly on a fast first round when the shooter picks up the rifle, twist it into the shooting position at the same time while opening up the action.   Momentum can turn the round outward in the port.

 

..........Widder

 

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2 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

 It's possible, but not very, that the round made it's way from magazine to ejection port. If it happened to me then yes, I would reload a round & await the call, if any, at the end of the stage.

Yep, I've seen a couple of 92s that would do that. It happened so often with one shooter we made sure to watch him load and come to the line with action closed empty chamber.

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