Sgt. Saywut Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 I know we're not allowed to list load recipes, so I'll keep this as generic as possible. I've been looking at cowboy load recipes using 357 Magnum brass simply because I have hundreds of new and once-fired cases, and the lowest velocity I've found published by a powder manufacturer, using a heavier LRNFP bullet, has been 754 fps with a barrel length of 10". In a recent magazine article, there's a picture of a box of ammo produced by a newish company, and it shows a label for 357 Magnum using a mid-weight TCFP bullet. The velocity is listed as 675 fps... not only this, but the company's web site lists an ammo option for 357 Magnum cowboy loads using a heavier RNFP bullet with a velocity of 615 fps Granted, the company doesn't list the barrel length for their velocity measurements, but still, that's a big difference between 615 and 754, isn't it? How is this low of a velocity possible without getting into squib territory? Use a pistol with a 3 1/2" barrel - would it make that much of a difference? Or is 615 fps still plenty fast? *DISCLAIMER* I'm new to reloading, so I'm learning as I go while staying firmly on the side of caution. Any comments would be welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Don't load at the baseline minimum(stay 2-3 tenths above)and use a firm rollcrimp. Many smokeless, cowboy powders in use today don't deal well with min loads in cold weather. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Quote How is this low of a velocity possible without getting into squib territory? By selecting a powder known to behave well at low chamber pressure. Red Dot is my favorite for this, but as long as temps are warm, Clays or Clay Dot will go down to light pressures (sub 6000 PSI) and still burn pretty consistently. The .357 mag case makes it harder to get good consistency. I'd load with .38 special brass. It takes some experience loading and watching pressure signs and squibby muzzle reports and maybe a cronograph to get down much below published minimums. Make sure you are looking in Cowboy load data, not in standard handgun data. That standard data usually never shows a Cowboy-light load. But, most powders don't get dangerous at light loads, just inconsistent and dirty. It's the inconsistent pressure that usually gives a shooter a squib. Four were good and one was way low pressure. But, it's usually not all that important to get your velocities down that low (650 FPS range). Some of the best shooters never get down there, after they learn what just one squib can do to their match. And a short barrel won't make that much difference. A squib sticks in the forcing cone quite often, not very often 6 inches down the barrel. Won't matter HOW short the barrel is. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 35 minutes ago, Sgt. Saywut said: I know we're not allowed to list load recipes, so I'll keep this as generic as possible. I've been looking at cowboy load recipes using 357 Magnum brass simply because I have hundreds of new and once-fired cases, and the lowest velocity I've found published by a powder manufacturer, using a heavier LRNFP bullet, has been 754 fps with a barrel length of 10". *DISCLAIMER* I'm new to reloading, so I'm learning as I go while staying firmly on the side of caution. Any comments would be welcome. Expect the velocity to be at least 80 Fps. lower in a gun with a 5 1/2 barrel , I have seen loads that lose over 150 Fps. with this reduction in barrel length ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 I DO NOT support loading below published data EVER !!! There are minimum loads and maximum loads for a GOOD reason !!! Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Saywut Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said: I DO NOT support loading below published data EVER !!! There are minimum loads and maximum loads for a GOOD reason !!! Jabez Cowboy No worries, I will NOT do this. Just wondered how people could go below the minimums published by powder manufacturers, is all. I have absolutely no desire to mess up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Thank-You .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Garrison Joe listed some good reliable powders. In addition to those, you might consider Titegroup; it was designed for small powder charges in relatively larger cases. I have used Titegroup in .38 Special, .357 Mag, and .45 Colt for a long time and when I am not loading black powder, I'm loading Titegroup. And I follow the recipes published by Hodgdon for those calibers. The Hodgdon chart I use lists velocities in the .38 Special from 856 fps for the minimum Titegroup charge to 985 fps for the maximum powder charge for the bullet weight I use. Similarly, Titegroup in the .357 ranges from 1055 to 1274 fps. So many of us are not trying to get down to SASS minimum velocities. I had the privilege of watching Missouri Lefty (former World Champion) at the Missouri State Championships a couple of weeks ago, and he does not use mouse fart loads. We are not permitted to give complete recipes on the wire but the recipes for Titegroup and the other Hodgdon powders can be seen at: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostVaquero Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Trailboss load data fills the case better and is getting down to those velocities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 TrailBoss is rarely the lightest load that you can put together, because it is really bad about giving inconsistent pressure even in the bottom half of the standard loading data ranges. Trying to go "off books" PLUS "novice reloader" is a recipe for a disaster, though. Get some experience following recipes before you start thinking you are smart enough (and know how to read the warning signs well enough) to build your own recipes. Whatever you do, stay away from Bullseye with below-min loads. We are starting to think that combination is blowing up Cowboy guns more than just one or two a year! Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Saywut Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 Thanks for the advice, folks. And not to worry, I will NOT stray from the published recipes. I was just curious how folks could get so low with the velocities. Visions of squibs were dancing in my head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Wait till you see a cowboy shooting a revolver with .45 Colt with a 250 grain slug going down range and you can see the rifling grooves rolling around the slug as it ambles down toward the target. THAT's HOW they do it. Perhaps you mean WHY do they do it? The HOW is simple, just drop less powder in the case than makes sense. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 My question is why do you want to load at that low velocity? I know of top shooters that load 38 specials with 125 grain bullets to 800 or even 850 fps. I load 44-40 with 200 grain bullets to 750 fps and the recoil is very mild. I load my 38 specials with 130 grainers to 800 fps and they are very mild recoil loads. Why go sub 700fps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 I know it is really tempting to go to real light loads, but there really isn't much to be gained. You shoot better if you have a little recoil anyway. Stay at or above the published minimums. Make sure you are shooting the lightest bullets with published data. That is a much better way to reduce recoil. I know some are not happy with Trailboss, but it has a lot going for it for the new reloader. It's fluffy and hard to double charge. I have read that Hodgdon designed it specifically for cowboy shooting. Hint--look at the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center for a recipe for a 90 gain bullet and Trailboss. I have a friend who shoots 357 exclusively because his rifle doesn't like 38 special (pistols don't care) and he finds the 357 brass cycles much better than 38. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 I'm with Bart. My 73 likes 357 length loads, 125 rnfp bullets and does fine in the 650-700 fps range . I have used a mild load of Solo1000 for many years with no problems, but it is no longer available. I have recently started to experiment with 700X. I am finding good reliability and great accuracy(at cowboy distances) and no feed problems in a variety of long guns. At this point use only published data until you become a experienced reloader. Good luck and I hope you enjoy the game. Imis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 5 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said: Similarly, Titegroup in the .357 ranges from 1055 to 1274 fps. Be aware that pistol velocity is limited to 1000 fps max., rifle to 1400 fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Yusta B. said: Be aware that pistol velocity is limited to 1000 fps max., rifle to 1400 fps. True. The figures quoted are from a 10 inch barrel, so unless the cowboy is shooting a Buntline Special the actual velocities should be well below the limit. I also have never seen any load challenged and chronographed at any match ever, anywhere, and I have been shooting CAS since 1998. I think if a shooter chooses the minimum Titegroup loads in any caliber from Hodgdon's CAS data they will not raise questions at any match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Agreed - just info for the new reloader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Saywut Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 Thanks for the additional info, folks. I’m going with Hodgdon’s recipes with listed minimum velocities around 750-850 fps, and I’ll try charges about 10-20% above minimum. With 4 3/4” barrels on my pistols, the velocities should come out a bit lower than the recipes list, if I’m not mistaken. This will be a learning experience! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 32 minutes ago, Sgt. Saywut said: Thanks for the additional info, folks. I’m going with Hodgdon’s recipes with listed minimum velocities around 750-850 fps, and I’ll try charges about 10-20% above minimum. With 4 3/4” barrels on my pistols, the velocities should come out a bit lower than the recipes list, if I’m not mistaken. This will be a learning experience! In my experience, along with a lot of test data to back it up, a 125gr bullet at 800-850fps is optimal. Recoil is necessary for a shooter to shoot fast. The energy introduced into the system causes a number of things in your body to get you back to target or on to the next target in the least amount of time. Searching for the least recoil possible yields longer splits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Sounds like you are right on track. Good luck ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 16 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: TrailBoss is rarely the lightest load that you can put together, because it is really bad about giving inconsistent pressure even in the bottom half of the standard loading data ranges. Trying to go "off books" PLUS "novice reloader" is a recipe for a disaster, though. Get some experience following recipes before you start thinking you are smart enough (and know how to read the warning signs well enough) to build your own recipes. Whatever you do, stay away from Bullseye with below-min loads. We are starting to think that combination is blowing up Cowboy guns more than just one or two a year! Good luck, GJ I tried TB at lowest published loads + a couple of tenths of a grain. Way too erratic. Way too expensive. My evil twin turned me on to Titegroup which shoots with great goodness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grass Range #51406 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 How about B/E minimum with a filler? Safe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 24 minutes ago, Grass Range #51406 said: How about B/E minimum with a filler? Safe? Definitely not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 8 minutes ago, Grass Range #51406 said: How about B/E minimum with a filler? Safe? While I have used toilet paper fillers in large BP cartridges with smokeless powder (primarily .45-70, .50-70 and .40-65 WCF, I would NEVER use any kind of filler in pistol cartridges! In the first place, fillers will raise pressures for a given loading, and there is a possibility of problems caused by the barrel/cylinder gap! As to VERY reduced loads with smokeless powders in cartridges with relatively large case capacities compared to their shorter "brothers" (.357 vs .38 Spl, .44 Magnum vs .44 Special, .45 LC in general) this is generally NOT a good idea! Smokeless powder requires reaching 5,000-7,000 psi (NOT CPU) for stable burning. If this is not reached before the bullet starts to move out of the case ("shot start") it is possible for the pressure to drop below the stable-burning level, and the powder may sit there smoldering until the bullet hits the forcing cone and possibly stops. If this happens, the pressures will rise dramatically. It takes more force on the bullet to start it moving from a standing start in the rifling than if it jumps the short distance from the case. If these pressures exceed the rupture strength of the cartridge case, you can have a catastrophic disassembly of the gun! If a shoot just MUST reduce velocities with smokeless powder, the only way is to use a faster-burning powder and a heavier bullet, plus a firm roll-crimp. The problem with using a faster-burning powder is that they generally fill a small portion of the case, which can result in erratic ignition, depending on the position of the powder after recoil of the preceding shots causes the powder to spread out in the case. As was noted above, the best thing is to go to the shorter case. This may not feed well in a rifle, but the only reason I can see for markedly reducing the velocity is to reduce felt recoil. Although it creates a minor logistical inconvenience it might just be better to load .38 Specials for use in the pistols, and .357 for use in the rifle. Although I am regarded as slow enough to be timed with an hour glass, I load my .44 Extra Long Russian (aka .44 Mangle-em) cartridges to match the velocities of the conversion cylinder .44-40's, to about 950 ft/sec from a 7-1/2" barrel. These are NOT the same loads, just the same bullet weights. I shoot Duelist, and find the recoil allows the guns to roll up in my hand, positioning the hammer spur under my thumb. DO NOT LOAD BELOW THOSE SHOWN BY THE PUBLISHED HANDLOADING BOOKS! Best practice is to load about 10 percent ABOVE the minimums shown UNLESS that would exceed the published loads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Saywut Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Noz said: I tried TB at lowest published loads + a couple of tenths of a grain. Way too erratic. Way too expensive. My evil twin turned me on to Titegroup which shoots with great goodness. Which cases were you loading - 38 or 357? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Grass Range #51406 said: How about B/E minimum with a filler? Safe? We are starting to think that combination is blowing up Cowboy guns more than just one or two a year! And fillers are no longer a good idea with powder manufacturers recommending no one use them anymore in smokeless loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 Powder Manufactures NEVER did recommend fillers for handgun Cartridges !!!! Just Saying, stay safe I have pressure tested loads with fillers that after sitting a few months loaded tested over 3 times higher than the SAMMI max pressure !!! Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 sent you an email on my Red Dot loads nice, mild ones for this old guy of 71 cheyenne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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