Total Time is now the official scoring method

[Yusta B.]

3 hours ago, Diamond S Doug said:

 

The slower shooter gets scored with the maximum score of the stage which is targets x 5 + 30

So if a shooter SDQs on a 10, 10, 4 they get scored 150.

If a slow shooter scored 180 on a stage they get scored a 150, the maximum stage score. In this example both shooters get the maximum score on the stage.

Do you have a reference for this ?

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Since many state championships and other major shoots have used total time for years now, the problems with totsl tine seems to be being resolved well at these many shoots very well.  

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

48 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Do you have a reference for this ?

There isn't any.  That is why how to score an SDQ (or to have a maximum stage time) needs to be spelled out in the rules.  I feel confident that when the rule book is revised to address total time this will also be taken care of.

[Yusta B.]

1 minute ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

There isn't any.  That is why how to score an SDQ (or to have a maximum stage time) needs to be spelled out in the rules.  I feel confident that when the rule book is revised to address total time this will also be taken care of.

I know of a club in CO. that scores an SDQ as the longest time on that stage + 10 sec. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

The SASS Scoring program offers two ways to do this in the configuration settings for the match.    You can set the Stage DQ time to be the Number of Shots plus a fixed time that you set, or by the slowest time run for the stage plus a fixed time that you set.  30 Seconds "seems" to be the standard, I guess I will have to wait for "Rev Next" of the Handbook to find out for sure.

 

As with all things, there will be a few bumps along the way and we won't know all of the bugs, well until we find them.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

4 hours ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

The SASS Scoring program offers two ways to do this in the configuration settings for the match.    You can set the Stage DQ time to be the Number of Shots plus a fixed time that you set, or by the slowest time run for the stage plus a fixed time that you set.  30 Seconds "seems" to be the standard, I guess I will have to wait for "Rev Next" of the Handbook to find out for sure.

 

As with all things, there will be a few bumps along the way and we won't know all of the bugs, well until we find them.

 

I believe you are exactly right.  The SASS scoring program takes care of this issue giving the match director the decision to make, just like the hundreds of other decisions he has to make that also directly effect everyone's score. My son has been doing scoring of a state championship and just told me about this option in the SASS scoring program a few minutes ago. 

[CD Tom]

When it comes to ties in total time what are the rules as to how a tie is broken?  I just went through the scores for EOT 2017 and of the 600 + shooters there wasn't any ties. When we had a tie with rank points we then used total time as the tie breaker.  If any body has answer to tie breaking in total time please let me know.  

In the SASS scoring program you have the two options, Number of shots on a stage + so many seconds. (you have to put the number of shoots per stages in the system, this is part of the match setup).  Option two is to take the slowest time on the stage + so many seconds, this sometimes can cause problems when a shooter has a gun malfunction and there score is in the 160 second range, then the SDQ would end up somewhere above the 160 depending on the number of seconds you added.

But like mentioned earlier with the number of shots + so many seconds a SDQ would end up with less time then the shooter with the gun malfunction. What ever the answer is the SASS scoring program will be changed to handle it. 

 

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Lots of ways to break a tie, ie who won most stages, etc

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

1 hour ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

Lots of ways to break a tie, ie who won most stages, etc

 

So let me get this straight, if I understand correctly, we use the equivalent of "Rank Points" to break a tie in a "Total Time" match?   

 

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

27 minutes ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

 

So let me get this straight, if I understand correctly, we use the equivalent of "Rank Points" to break a tie in a "Total Time" match?   

 

So how would you propose ties be broken?  With a rank point match tie, it was decided by total time.  Seeing who won the most stages is not rank points by the way.

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

15 minutes ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

So how would you propose ties be broken?  With a rank point match tie, it was decided by total time.  Seeing who won the most stages is not rank points by the way.

No, it's not rank points per say, but that is the basis of rank points, rating who finished highest on each stage to determine  who won the match.  You would be doing that, except just comparing the two who tied.  And while highly unlikely,  there is always the possibility of having more than just two with the same total time.  How would you propose to handle that scenario?  And what if that still resulted in a tie? 

 

Personally, I don't care which system is made mandatory, I just don't want to have an issue show up during a match. While I am confident there will ultimately be a solution, whether it is Rank Points, fewest errors (misses, proceedurals, etc), or something totally different, I just wish it was ready to go now.  I've got a big match to run in 2 1/2 months, with a mandatory scoring system, that has known issues.  It's the problem of mandating a change without having thoroughly worked through the problem looking for pitfalls before its turned loose.  It is a recipe for disaster.  

 

As much as folks liked to bitch about the TG process, the TGs sorted out a lot of these kinds of things before they went online.  There was a huge collective knowledge base present in those meetings that was not utilized for this transition and that is unfortunate.

 

Not trying to pick an argument,  just trying to make sure folks look at the problem critically and don't celebrate their victory too soon.

 

 

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

9 hours ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

 

 

As much as folks liked to bitch about the TG process, the TGs sorted out a lot of these kinds of things before they went online.  There was a huge collective knowledge base present in those meetings that was not utilized for this transition and that is unfortunate.

 

Not trying to pick an argument,  just trying to make sure folks look at the problem critically and don't celebrate their victory too soon.

 

 

Really? You're acting like Total Time is brand new to SASS. Why haven't the TG's sorted this out before now? 

 

Where was your concern about all the state matches that have been running total time for years?

 

I understand folks being upset but please don't act like making this decision without having a TG summit has somehow made this a bad move filled with problems that the TG's would have fixed.

 

That's baloney. 

 

IF you have a tie I would be fine with

 

1. You have two winners

2. Whomever won the most stages between the two shooters is the winner. 

 

Please dont say "now we're gonna use rank to break the tie" as if it's an illustration as to how rank is better.....total time was used to break the tie in rank. Same difference. 

 

Stan

 

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

10 hours ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

No, it's not rank points per say, but that is the basis of rank points, rating who finished highest on each stage to determine  who won the match.  You would be doing that, except just comparing the two who tied.  And while highly unlikely,  there is always the possibility of having more than just two with the same total time.  How would you propose to handle that scenario?  And what if that still resulted in a tie? 

 

Personally, I don't care which system is made mandatory, I just don't want to have an issue show up during a match. While I am confident there will ultimately be a solution, whether it is Rank Points, fewest errors (misses, proceedurals, etc), or something totally different, I just wish it was ready to go now.  I've got a big match to run in 2 1/2 months, with a mandatory scoring system, that has known issues.  It's the problem of mandating a change without having thoroughly worked through the problem looking for pitfalls before its turned loose.  It is a recipe for disaster.  

 

As much as folks liked to bitch about the TG process, the TGs sorted out a lot of these kinds of things before they went online.  There was a huge collective knowledge base present in those meetings that was not utilized for this transition and that is unfortunate.

 

Not trying to pick an argument,  just trying to make sure folks look at the problem critically and don't celebrate their victory too soon.

 

 

 

What are the known issues of a Total Time Match ?

 

the reason most folks wanted Total Time is the issues Rank Points causes 

 

I have not seen any issues on the wire or heard of any state match having issues with Total Time, I'm sure folks that were fans of RP would of brought them up in the many debates on the wire

 

AO

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

Stan,

 

Unfortunately, there are multiple threads on this subject and some of the humor is being lost.  It was a tongue in cheek comment about using the winner of the most stages, i.e. rank, as the tie breaker for TT.

 

As far as the TG comment, I will stand by that in that, as at least for the last 3-4 years at the convention, this was not a topic because everyone knew the Wild Bunch would nix a decision to move away from Rank Points.

 

If all the issues with Total Time we're known and resolved, then the SASS scoring program would have already included all of the tie breaker algorithms, but it does not.  Hence, while TT is usable and in many ways preferable, it's not 100% ready for prime time.

 

Had SASS decreed that TT would be the mandated method STARTING IN 2018, I wouldn't have any complaints, but as it is, there are issues that are not fully reconciled.  I am sure they will be, but they do exist today.

 

Again, I know that many are extremely happy that this has happened.  That are also many who are equally unhappy.  Most, I suspect, really don't care one way or the other.   Personally, other than the short notice, my only real complaint is that I still believe the right thing to do would have been to get the votes from the members and run it through the TG process.  The result would very likely been the same, but at least there would have been time for comments and others to consider the issues as well and how to fix them.

 

Best always,

 

Dogmeat Dad

 

PS forgive any typos and poor gramer as I am doing this on my phone on the way to Church and my voice recognition SW has known issues.

 

 

 

 

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

21 minutes ago, Arcadia Outlaw SASS#71385 said:

 

What are the known issues of a Total Time Match ?

 

the reason most folks wanted Total Time is the issues Rank Points causes 

 

I have not seen any issues on the wire or heard of any state match having issues with Total Time, I'm sure folks that were fans of RP would of brought them up in the many debates on the wire

 

AO

 

The issues in question are resolution of tiebreaks and what mechanism will be made official in the rule books.  While statistically a low probability event, if it can happen, it will happen, at the worst possible time.  At least that has been my experience.

 

Again, if this was to take effect next year, I wouldn't have commented at all, but there are many things that need to be updated, software, rulebooks, etc.  A delay of 6 months would have provided time to do, and review, all of that.

 

Dogmeat Dad

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

And to everyone, Rank Points did have issues, and bigger issues that TT, particularly in how they unfairly treated penalties across the shooters.  I never said it was better, but it was a known quantity.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

11 hours ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

No, it's not rank points per say, but that is the basis of rank points, rating who finished highest on each stage to determine  who won the match.  You would be doing that, except just comparing the two who tied.  And while highly unlikely,  there is always the possibility of having more than just two with the same total time.  How would you propose to handle that scenario?  And what if that still resulted in a tie? 

 

Personally, I don't care which system is made mandatory, I just don't want to have an issue show up during a match. While I am confident there will ultimately be a solution, whether it is Rank Points, fewest errors (misses, proceedurals, etc), or something totally different, I just wish it was ready to go now.  I've got a big match to run in 2 1/2 months, with a mandatory scoring system, that has known issues.  It's the problem of mandating a change without having thoroughly worked through the problem looking for pitfalls before its turned loose.  It is a recipe for disaster.  

 

As much as folks liked to bitch about the TG process, the TGs sorted out a lot of these kinds of things before they went online.  There was a huge collective knowledge base present in those meetings that was not utilized for this transition and that is unfortunate.

 

Not trying to pick an argument,  just trying to make sure folks look at the problem critically and don't celebrate their victory too soon.

 

 

Remember big matches including many if not most state championships have been using total time for a lot of years.  It is nothing new.  Folks have it figured out. 

[Church Key, SASS # 33713]

I'm guessing that the easiest way to break ties is to use the proven cowboy way; a coin flip. However to be realistic a period $20 gold coin is mandatory, with a period silver dollar as a backup.

 

Church Key

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

1 hour ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

Remember big matches including many if not most state championships have been using total time for a lot of years.  It is nothing new.  Folks have it figured out. 

 

While that may be true, I think that there is a very large regional component to what is run.  I know that TT is huge (if not 100%) in the south east.  I also know that the mid-atlantic area is almost exclusively RP.  While TT may not be new, that doesn't mean that everything has been examined to see what might go wrong.  I would be very interested to know if the folks running TT in the southeast resolve their anomalies in exactly the same way as those in other parts of the country.  That consistency across all clubs, and all regions, is what we are all striving to achieve, are we not?

 

Let me provide two examples of things that I have not, as yet, seen an answered in the official rules.

 

Big match, 12 stages, and the two top shooters run the match in exactly the same total time.  The "recommendation", it's not a "rule" yet, is to compare the number of stages that they each won, effectively their rank against each other, and the one with the most "wins" wins.  Makes perfect sense, lets just get it documented, and fixed in the software.

 

So lets extend the inquiry.  Same match, except this time not only do they have the exactly the same time, but both shooters won 6 stages.  So what criteria do we use now to determine the winner?

 

So lets extend the inquiry further.  Same match, except this time there are three shooters with the same total time.  How do we resolve this situation?  Granted that this is a low probability event and, as we extend the number of "tied" shooters, the probability will asymptotically approach 0, but it's not 0, the possibility still exists, so we need an "Official" mechanism to address this.situation.

 

All I'm saying is that, at the moment, there is nothing in the rule books and nothing in the software, so there is nothing "Official" to establish the proper mechanism to resolve these situations.  From my perspective, I would have liked to have seen all of those questions answered, the rule books updated, and the software modified, BEFORE we make the official switch to Total Time.  The last thing any of us wants is the discover that one of these situations has occurred during the time between the last shot being fired and the awards ceremony, which in some cases is only a matter of hours.  Having delayed the switch over until 2018, would have provided time to do the updates and testing.

 

Hopefully, all of this will be easily resolved, everything will be quickly updated, and we will be back to beating the "Too Many Categories" dead horse.  I just know, from my experience, that whenever you field something that has not been both thoroughly examined and tested, under real world conditions, that there is an inherent risk of failure and I just would prefer that it not happen on my watch.

 

Five years from now, if not sooner, everyone will look back and wonder why it took so dang switch to Total Time and we will still be arguing about Categories.

 

Dogmeat Dad

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

What is the tie breaker for rank points if two shooters tied on rank and had the exact same total time?

 

The sky is not falling and this isn't an experiment being done "on your watch". You are making this out to be a bigger problem than it really is. 

 

Not that it can't happen but it is very unlikely to happen and if it does at your major match then I'm sure you'll figure something out if there is no official ruling about how to break the tie. 

 

Just curious....other than "it's in the scoring program"....currently where would a regular shooter find out how a tie is broken in rank point scoring?

 

Stan

 

 

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

1 minute ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

What was the tie breaker for rank points if two shooters tied on rank and had the exact same total time?

 

 

 

Good question, and to be honest, I don't know, but since you asked I will assume it's also not spelled out in the rules.

 

We all know that no system is perfect, and no matter how  much we do, there can always be an Oh, Crap moment when  something unexpected pops up.  It still dosen't alliviate the responsibility we all share to fix  the problems we do know about.  Same reason so many pushed for so long to institute the switch to total time.  Rank Points had inherent problems with no easy fix, so it was replaced.  So let's get this fixed and move forward.

[Big Rock, SASS #44055]

As someone stated earlier, they have seen one (1) tie in 30 years.  I've been in SASS more than half that, and all the total time matches I have been in have never seen a tie.  Seen some close, by .01 sec, but never seen one.  

 

The odds of it it happening are astronomical.

 

i have an idea if it ever does, flip a coin, or like in Winchester '73... who ever shooters the center out of the tossed coin.

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

It will never happen, until it does, regardless of how improbable it is.

 

SASS has decreed that the matches will be TT, and so they will be TT.  At this point, all we can do is wait to see what the updated rule books say when they are released. Prior to that, it's all speculation anyway.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

The person with the least misses Wins ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, If still tied ,,, the one that Won the most Stages .

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Geronimo Jim SASS # 21775]

By going to total time, the fun factor for me has gone down big time.

And just when I am finding it hard to keep interested in cowboy

shooting.   One reason I quit going to the Florida championship was

they switched to total time.   

[Hoss]

One way to break a tie would be for MD to put, prop to the match, in a sealed envelope, the # of the stage used for tie-breaker. Announce at banquet the tie.  Have both shooters stand to revive the applause! Then explain that the tie-breaker is whoever had the fastest time in the "secret" stage.  Open the envelope, check the scores, and determine the winner. 

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

40 minutes ago, Geronimo Jim SASS # 21775 said:

By going to total time, the fun factor for me has gone down big time.

And just when I am finding it hard to keep interested in cowboy

shooting.   One reason I quit going to the Florida championship was

they switched to total time.   

 

Don't worry Jim, you will always be rank to me!  

 

Ultimately, it's the same game, same people, maybe one less dead horse to beat, but the fun will be what we make it.  Don't give up on it yet.

[Hoss]

38 minutes ago, Geronimo Jim SASS # 21775 said:

By going to total time, the fun factor for me has gone down big time.

And just when I am finding it hard to keep interested in cowboy

shooting.   One reason I quit going to the Florida championship was

they switched to total time.   

I'm just curious, how does TT decrease the fun factor? How do you shoot a TT match differently that a RP match? 

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

For many, the game changes in how they approach the match.  TT tends to favor the fast, RP tends to favor the consistent.  No hard and fast rule there, but that seems to be the case.

 

TT also tends to take the mystery out of who won, as anyone with a calculator can figure out who won from the posted stage times for shooter verification.  Some consider that a good thing, some do not.  Probably all dependent as to where you regularly shoot.  There are ways to deal with that, but they all require additional steps, or coded scores, or something as yet to be determined.

 

Like I have said before, for the vast majority of SASS shooters it won't matter at all.  

 

 

[Diamond S Doug]

On 7/14/2017 at 4:57 PM, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

There isn't any.  That is why how to score an SDQ (or to have a maximum stage time) needs to be spelled out in the rules.  I feel confident that when the rule book is revised to address total time this will also be taken care of.

 

 

Larsen is correct. There is no current guidance on this.  What I was referring to was a quote from the last posted RO1 handbook that was replaced by the RO1 sutdent course.  Since the RO1 manual is no longer online I assume the information in it is no longer considered current.

 

It stated on page 24:

 

Other scoring systems may be used at state and local levels, such as overall time. If overall time is used, a maximum allowed time for each stage should be calculated prior to the match to be used as the disqualification score and maximum stage score. It is recommended the maximum time allowed for a stage be a total of all the available targets/miss penalties plus 30 seconds.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

1 hour ago, Diamond S Doug said:

 

 

Larsen is correct. There is no current guidance on this.  What I was referring to was a quote from the last posted RO1 handbook that was replaced by the RO1 sutdent course.  Since the RO1 manual is no longer online I assume the information in it is no longer considered current.

 

It stated on page 24:

 

Other scoring systems may be used at state and local levels, such as overall time. If overall time is used, a maximum allowed time for each stage should be calculated prior to the match to be used as the disqualification score and maximum stage score. It is recommended the maximum time allowed for a stage be a total of all the available targets/miss penalties plus 30 seconds.

The RO I handbook is on line for 2017, can you not find it?

[Sedalia Dave]

8 minutes ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

The RO I handbook is on line for 2017, can you not find it?

 

The paragraph in question is not part of the RO I slides as currently posted.

 

The current RO I does not discuss SDQ penalties for total time scoring.

[J-BAR #18287]

In the event of a tie, make another plaque.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

The match director makes many decisions that effect scoring, he can decide the SDQ penalty and tie situation just like many other decisions.

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

2 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

In the event of a tie, make another plaque.

 

Don't forget that the State Champions (Top Male & Female) get a free entry to the Regional, the Regional champions get a free entry to the Divisional, the Divisional champions get a free entry to Winter Range and the Winter range Champions get a free entry to EOT.  There are costs outside of "Just a Plaque" (and buckle, don't forget the buckle!)