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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

a truly Hypothetical WTC?

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I believe that if the round had been a dud, the shooter has the same options as they would with a rifle. They could either take the miss or shoot the targets as required and then reload for the last round.

 

But the latter option requires that they still hit the targets in the prescribed order (1-2-3-4-5-5-4-3-2-1)

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ROI pg 30 seems to disagree with you.

 

Definition from page 30, RO I handbook:

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target

 

Are you really trying to say that dropping a hammer on an empty chamber has to, for SASS purposes, be considered engaging the target? Then folks are engaging targets from the loading table.....OMG!

 

At the time the shooter clicked the hammer the sixth time, there was no round in the gun that could have been fired at the target!

 

Again, this is a problem directly coming from trying to use "engaged" as some sort of a status of firing the gun.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Add to the P the two misses, one on target 5 (1st target of second sweep) that was only "engaged" with the 6th shot/click from the first revolver, the 2nd miss for the live round left in the revolver.

 

Enough for a headache,

Barry Sloe

Forgot 1p

no penalty for the miss on the 1st target of the second sweep. A p can't cause a miss.

1 5 sec penalty for round not fired

 

(shooter did hit 9 out of 10)

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I believe that if the round had been a dud, the shooter has the same options as they would with a rifle. They could either take the miss or shoot the targets as required and then reload for the last round.

 

But the latter option requires that they still hit the targets in the prescribed order (1-2-3-4-5-5-4-3-2-1)

if we had to HIT the targets in the prescribed manner but missed wede all get Ps!!!

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Whether GJ or many others like it or not SASS has a VERY UNUSUAL definition of "ENGAGED" it is different than other shooting sports.

 

RO1 page 30 GLOSSARY OF TERMS: ENGAGED: attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

 

IT does NOT say anything about a round being actually FIRED at the target for it to have been ENGAGED.

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...

 

The relevant difference between this situation and jacked out round in a rifle string (or a bad primer in the pistol) at that same point in the string is that the shooter still has enough LIVE rounds to complete the string as written in the type of gun required (in this case the pistol) without having to reload. Not so with a jacked out rifle round.

 

If pointing a pistol and pulling a trigger on an empty chamber or spent round is ENGAGING, then shouldn't a GF who cocked one to many times and points it down range to drop the hammer be awarded a penalty for ENGAGING 11 times with the pistols rather than the ten required by stage instructions? :D

 

Or how about someone doing a ruger go round? :D

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Whether GJ or many others like it or not SASS has a VERY UNUSUAL definition of "ENGAGED" it is different than other shooting sports.

 

RO1 page 30 GLOSSARY OF TERMS: ENGAGED: attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

An empty case is not a round,,,, in my book. Thus, no engagement. A cartridge round with bullet/powder/primer is a cartridge(along with the case). The powder/primer could be defective, but missing all three or the four components of a cartridge is not a round. My opinion.

 

 

IT does NOT say anything about a round being actually FIRED at the target for it to have been ENGAGED.

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Whether GJ or many others like it or not SASS has a VERY UNUSUAL definition of "ENGAGED" it is different than other shooting sports.

 

RO1 page 30 GLOSSARY OF TERMS: ENGAGED: attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

An empty case is not a round,,,, in my book. Thus, no engagement. A cartridge round with bullet/powder/primer is a cartridge(along with the case). The powder/primer could be defective, but missing all three or the four components of a cartridge is not a round. My opinion.

 

 

IT does NOT say anything about a round being actually FIRED at the target for it to have been ENGAGED.

 

 

Actually shoot five and cock again an empty chamber is under the hammer, it don't even have a CASE!

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Actually shoot five and cock again an empty chamber is under the hammer, it don't even have a CASE!

True,

 

So he gets a P + 1m

 

Edit, With or w/o an empty case with the last pull of the trigger.

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If pointing a pistol and pulling a trigger on an empty chamber or spent round is ENGAGING, then shouldn't a GF who cocked one to many times and points it down range to drop the hammer be awarded a penalty for ENGAGING 11 times with the pistols rather than the ten required by stage instructions? :D

 

Or how about someone doing a ruger go round? :D

but a miss can't cause a P....

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but a miss can't cause a P....

But the P was earned when the second five rounds started on the incorrect target.

The miss didn't come into play until he failed to fire the last round out of the pistol.

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Boy......am I glad I had a life today and wasn't involved with this whole hypothetical mess :P

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but he did engage it...... with the first of the next five rounds.... but didn't go bang.....

That's why I no longer use the word "engage", I say "shoot at".

 

Fillmore

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Boy......am I glad I had a life today and wasn't involved with this whole hypothetical mess :P

I'm working on a black star!!!! wait for the next one!!!!

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Cheyenne

 

I am with GJ on this one--you can't engage a target without a live round in the gun--because you can't attempt to fire a round unless you have one to fire. Neither can dropping a hammer on a gun without live rounds yield a miss--though you can get a 5 second penalty if there is an unfired round in the revolver (not left under the hammer). As others have said, on your facts a P for starting the second sweep on target 4 and a 5 second penalty for the unfired 10 round.

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He gets 5 sec penalty for the unfired round. Since he only had 5 rounds in the first pistol and the rule of engagement calls for attempting to fire a Round at the target then he could have only engaged 5 targets thus the second click at the 5 target is irrelevant. But starting the second 5 on target 4 gave him a P. You can't have it both ways. As it's been pointed out there would have been thousands of Ps awarded over the years for going around on the cylinder and GFs that got lost on where the last live round was. Do you really want to call every point and click with a pistol engagement ? And I know it was no accident that engaged instead of hit was used. If we were talking about the Whole situation of what happened as in What Got Hit When there would probably be little debate. This is an interesting post though. Keep'em coming.

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but he did engage it...... with the first of the next five rounds.... but didn't go bang.....

Not according to the original post.

 

shooter using first pistol engages first five targets, and then with same pistol engages the last target again, then pulls second pistol and taking up on the second target engages the last 4 targets,,, leaving one round in pistol,,, holsters it on spent round..... so, he engaged targets 1 2,3,4,5 engaged 5 again with same pistol and then with second five rounds engaged 4 3 2 1.... and left one in pistol, safely

 

This says he engaged the last target of the first five twice with the first pistol, not the second. So the second five shots were not started on the correct target.

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if the stage is written, engage with 1st five rounds and then engage with second 5 rounds... it cud be argued he engaged it 5 times....

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if the stage is written, engage with 1st five rounds and then engage with second 5 rounds... it cud be argued he engaged it 5 times....

 

 

I reckon yer gonna have to splain that one Lucy.

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not if I'm the TO!!! har!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post #8

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Because we treat long guns differently than revolvers?

The shooter HIT the targets "out of order"...that's the "P".

...didn't he?

How about telling us the order in which the targets were actually HIT with FIRED rounds.

 

Leaving the unfired round (we're assuming he only actually SHOT 9 out of the ten) is a 5-second penalty.

 

He didn't "jack one out" of the revolver...did he?

is it written such?

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But the P was earned when the second five rounds started on the incorrect target.

The miss didn't come into play until he failed to fire the last round out of the pistol.

 

There ya go.

 

Agonize over the definitions all you want to...this is the correct call.

As I already posted...this is NOT a case of a "Miss causing a P"

 

The 5-second "miss" was a result of the shooter getting OUT OF ORDER (P) during the engagement/HITTING of targets with fired rounds.

 

Suggest shooter learn to COUNT TO FIVE while shooting.

 

...but since this is CC's "hypothetical"; anything goes from here on out.

 

and I'm GONE!

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black star yet?

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if the stage is written, engage with 1st five rounds and then engage with second 5 rounds... it cud be argued he engaged it 5 times....

 

Is this what you're teaching in your RO classes regarding proper methods of scoring a stage?

 

<_<

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only if it wud earn a black star!!!!

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not if I'm the TO!!! har!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

then you (as the TO) can call it anyway you want.

 

Happens all the time.

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and it dint' even take 3 pages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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We had a silly discussion like this many years ago up at Possum Trot. It was on a call during the spring annual and today my CRS causes me to disremember the exact situation. Myself, Will Reilly, Copperhead Joe and several others more respected for their opinions than me, debated and pondered for a couple of hours before taking the literal written line from the rulebook at that time for the applied penalty, and then agreed at that time, that if things continued as they were at the time, (which many will contend that they have) we would need a panel of Philadelphia lawyers on hand to sort out the rules and render a decision.

 

I now try to avoid these debates and can understand why so many shooters refuse to RO/TO anymore!!

 

I'll RO/TO and make a call. After that I'll say why I made the call and leave it to the debate team to sort it out!!

 

Next Shooter PLEASE!!

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I agree completely that the call is a "P" and A 5 second penalty for the unfired round. I was just pointing out the actual definition of "Engaged" in the SASS rules.

 

We score based on what actually happens with projectiles that leave the firearm and arrive in the area of the targets. A Hit, A Miss, or possibly a "P" for hitting the wrong target. Engaged has nothing to do with actual scoring. I just think one needs to be very careful when writing stages to avoid lawyering based on the use of the word Engaged.

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I thought stirring the pot was a winter activity lol. See this is why you need to watch the gun fighters because they have

A wicked way of thinking. Cheyeene a pleasure shooting with you at the Nor'Easter.

 

 

EMN

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BlackStar_400x400.PNG

 

 

and it dint' even take 3 pages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOO proud!!!!!

 

That's my BOY!!!!! :D:D:D

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I agree completely that the call is a "P" and A 5 second penalty for the unfired round. I was just pointing out the actual definition of "Engaged" in the SASS rules.

 

We score based on what actually happens with projectiles that leave the firearm and arrive in the area of the targets. A Hit, A Miss, or possibly a "P" for hitting the wrong target. Engaged has nothing to do with actual scoring. I just think one needs to be very careful when writing stages to avoid lawyering based on the use of the word Engaged.

that's not totally correct, is it? unless you count a jacked out round as leaving the firearm.... cudn't resist!!!

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