Coyote Kincaid Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I was going to ask this on the WB forum and I signed up three days ago but nobody has approved my request. So before I order parts I thought I would get some verification first. I shot my first WB match this weekend and somehow my thumb safety kept flipping up. After closer inspection, it is real easy to flip up. This is a Ruger SR1911 that is only a year old. I'm thinking a stronger plunger spring is needed and I was going to order the ones from Wolff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Are you shooting one or two handed? Place your strong side thumb on top of the safety. Smoking Gator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Kincaid Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 I shoot two handed and I've tried my thumb over the safety and it doesn't feel natural to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Sir was it mine , I would refit the safety properly , in fact , you may have to get a new safety , and fit it Chickasaw Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I think I might call Ruger and see what they have to say, this sounds like a warranty repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogleg Hunter Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 See if you can sign into the WB Forum. I never got a notice either but was able to sign in after a couple of days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Kincaid Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 Just to clarify, the safety was always firm to move. It wasn't until halfway through the match that this problem arose. I could call Ruger but I have another match coming up soon that I would like to get in on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Kincaid Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 See if you can sign into the WB Forum. I never got a notice either but was able to sign in after a couple of days. Works for me now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Frank Norfleet Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 While you may have a faulty safety, in a two handed grip the strong hand thumb lives on top of the safety. That is part of the grip you establish when you start your draw stroke. If you ever shoot cocked and locked, the thumb on top disengages the safety after you clear leather and the hands come together. Sure it is uncomfortable at first. The thumb on top of the safety will also allow you to pull the pistol deeper in your hand giving you greater control in recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 There are stronger than factory springs available for the spring driving the safety plunger. Be aware that going to a stronger spring means the mag release will become harder to depress, too, as it is the same spring that tensions both. I would take a look at the front of the safety and make sure there is still a small detent (divot) in the face where the plunger holds the safety in fire position - maybe that area is filled with dirt. It is real unusual for the safety plunger to not have enough spring load to hold the thumb safety in place unless you are really going with a high grip and your thumb is bumping it up. The plunger has no way to suddenly change it's tension, unless that spring snapped or the plunger tube has come loose. Good luck, GJ PS - They are having hacker attacks on the WB wire, so they announced a couple of weeks ago that they were tightening up (as in slowing down) the checking they do to see if you are a real person using a real email address and valid looking IP before they turn on your WB account. Be patient. It's for the bigger good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Frank Norfleet Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Joe, I think you mean the slide stop will be harder to depress, not the mag release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Whenever you change something it can feel funny at first. In baseball or football, if you change your stance it feels awkward to you. A week later your original stance doesn't feel right. The thumb on top of the safety is how nearly all experienced,good shooters grip a 1911. You can't go to the range and barely try it and determine it doesn't work. Smoking Gator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I shot IPSC pretty heavily for six years. There are more experienced and capable shooters than me, but the two tricks to running a 1911 hard are keeping the thumb on the safety to reduce muzzle flip and allowing the trigger to only travel to the reset point. The fact that this thumb safety is being engaged while shooting probably indicates an incorrect grip. The fact that it does not happen all the time probably indicates an inconsistent grip. A high grip with the thumb on that safety and attention to a straight trigger pull sounds like the 'fix'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Ride the safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I shot IPSC pretty heavily for six years. There are more experienced and capable shooters than me, but the two tricks to running a 1911 hard are keeping the thumb on the safety to reduce muzzle flip and allowing the trigger to only travel to the reset point. The fact that this thumb safety is being engaged while shooting probably indicates an incorrect grip. CK, I still shoot USPSA and started in 1987. What Tom and others have said is spot on. I don't care if the tumbsafety didn't have a plunger at all, if you are using the correct grip i.e. the thumb on top of the the thumbsafety then this wouldn't happen period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 C.K., et al. If the safety is popping up then either there is something broken in the plunger tube, spring assy or the inner detent in the safety is not correct, perhaps it was too shallow, or a groove has worn in it. It's also possible that the safety is moving out of proper position cross wise, like it's trying to come out. All of these are unusual for a 1911 in reasonably new condition. Not to get too embroiled in apparent controversy, but where did the notion that putting your thumb on the safety was a good idea come from? The IPSC crowd does it, but that necessitated the invention of a slide guard to keep the thumbs from retarding slide travel resulting in FTF jams. They created a problem that required additional equipment to compensate for it. They also needed grip safety bumps as a result of failing to properly grip the pistol. That's akin to the guys who want to grip the pistol such that the support hand has a finger out on the squared off trigger guard. All of this can make sense on a modified gun that is race specific. I might be out of fashion, but I learned to grip the 1911 with my shooting hand in a full and proper grip, clear leather to a low hold, at which time the support hand fully wraps the shooting hand, both thumbs are loose still. As the gun is raised and brought into alignment with the target, the shooting hand thumb drops the safety, goes into a full grip of the gun, and the support hand thumb wraps over this. This gives the strongest grip possible on the gun. As the gun comes off target, the shooting hand thumb bumps the safety back on. After you do a few hundred reps of draw to low ready, wrap hands, raise to sight picture whilst disengaging the safety, lower to low ready whilst re-engaging the safety, and repeat, it becomes muscle memory. The two handed shooting grip should be the same as the one handed grip, and they should both be full wrap. The safety should reliably take the position it's put into, and you shouldn't have to hold it down for it to work correctly. As I said, there may be a more modern school of thought, but the way I was taught involved getting a proper grip from the start, and having your thumb out of place riding the safety is not a proper grip. I'd get the safety fixed, it should NOT be doing what you described. The match isn't that important, getting a broken gun fixed is. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Irish Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I shot IPSC pretty heavily for six years. There are more experienced and capable shooters than me, but the two tricks to running a 1911 hard are keeping the thumb on the safety to reduce muzzle flip and allowing the trigger to only travel to the reset point. The fact that this thumb safety is being engaged while shooting probably indicates an incorrect grip. The fact that it does not happen all the time probably indicates an inconsistent grip. A high grip with the thumb on that safety and attention to a straight trigger pull sounds like the 'fix'. 25 years experience shooting USPSA and 1911's add my +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 ShadowCatcher.. The modern thumb on safety grip came from the same place that the best techniques for SASS shooting came from. Top shooters put the different techniques to the test using timers and targets and determined which techniques were best. They don't guess at what works for them. They don't always stick with the first technique they tried because it " feels good", they test it. For faster, accurate multiple shots their testing and match experience has shown that the thumb on top works best. When using the thumb under the safety it isn't a matter of a defective safety just "popping up". The shooter is engaging the safety when the gun recoils. Smoking Gator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 ShadowCatcher.. The modern thumb on safety grip came from the same place that the best techniques for SASS shooting came from. Top shooters put the different techniques to the test using timers and targets and determined which techniques were best. They don't guess at what works for them. They don't always stick with the first technique they tried because it " feels good", they test it. For faster, accurate multiple shots their testing and match experience has shown that the thumb on top works best. When using the thumb under the safety it isn't a matter of a defective safety just "popping up". The shooter is engaging the safety when the gun recoils. Smoking Gator I think what you're saying is the shooter has a poor grip, which is causing him to hit the safety and engage it, so to compensate we change to a weaker style of grip and hold the safety down. I understand that IPSC shooters, like CAS shooters, have spent years and dollars developing those parts and styles that work best in the games we play, it's a very specialized skill set and gaming equipment. After 25-30 years of both I've seen the trends and the race gun wars all played out. It's very similar to what race car people do. My point was about gripping the 1911 for combat shooting, I forget that this is specialized gaming. Sort of the way IPSC has tangential application to real gun fighting. Your point is well taken. I'd still get that gun evaluated by a gunsmith, unless we know for a fact that he's actually bumping the safety. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICIOUS, SASS#8014 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 HOWDY; I started bumping the slide stop on under recoil at first. Needed a grip fix. Hold the gun properly fixed me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 SC. I'd be willing to bet that any Swat teams, Special forces military or government agencies that use 1911's are also using the modern thumbs forward strong hand thumb on safety. I don't think they are using a different "combat or tactical" grip. Being able to shoot fast, accurate, multiple shots is needed in competition as well as tactical situations. Smoking Gator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I think what you're saying is the shooter has a poor grip, which is causing him to hit the safety and engage it, so to compensate we change to a weaker style of grip and hold the safety down. SC By placing the thumb up on the safety you create an open area for the ball of the left hand to be wedged into which creates more contact with the gun, not less. It also allows the left thumb to rest below the right thumb, again to create more contact with the gun. Your statement that you are creating a "weaker" grip by keeping your thumb on the safety is dead wrong. There is not one, NOT ONE solid USPSA or IPSC shooter that shoots with their thumb below the safety. Can they all be wrong?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I recently had a chance to shoot my Series 80 Govt. Colt side by side with my son's new Ruger. I ran into the same problem with the safety, but had never experienced it with my Colt. The Ruger's safety is a bit lighter than the Colt, but is very positive. I'm relatively new to 1911s, but my conclusion was that my grip was sloppy and had been on the Colt as well. I had just gotten away with it without realizing it. Once I did my part with a proper grip, the Ruger ran flawlessly. I learn something new everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 It's not impossible to shoot a 1911 with your thumb under the safety without accidentally engaging the thumb safety. But with the higher grip afforded by the thumb on top style along with not accidentally engaging the safety, you can shoot accurately and quicker. Smoking Gator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Frank Norfleet Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 C.K., et al. Not to get too embroiled in apparent controversy, but where did the notion that putting your thumb on the safety was a good idea come from? Col. Jeff Cooper While most competitive shooters have left the Weaver stance and their support hand thumb is now below their thumb on the strong hand, Col. Cooper's strong hand thumb is clearly "riding" the safety. P. S. No controversy here, I don't mind competing against shooters who can't grip their pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 It's not impossible to shoot a 1911 with your thumb under the safety without accidentally engaging the thumb safety. But with the higher grip afforded by the thumb on top style along with not accidentally engaging the safety, you can shoot accurately and quicker. Smoking GatorI believe you are correct in that the higher grip does allow better recoil control, however I also believe that when you consider the articulation of the hand, and the way the muscles operate, the griping technique of having the thumb wrapped in rather than extended provides a more secure grip. When we grip a rope, or other tool, wrapping the thumb towards the opposing fingers increases the grip strength, whereas when we place our thumb on the same side as the other fingers, or extend it away from our other grasping fingers, our grip is weaker. It's not a significant matter in the grand scheme, and there may well be good ideas in what the IPSC folks have developed, but I learned what I did a long time ago, and it has never failed me, so I don't think I'll fix it. Thanks for sharing some good insight into what's happening in the modern world... I'm crawling back into my cave! 😀 SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 That riding the safety method doesn't lend itself to us lefties very well unless you have the ambi-safety installed... which I don't. My two 1911's are both Colts and I never use the thumb safety. No issues with either one going to safe during a firing string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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