Not a normal you make the call question.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

One practice night, a shooter who was new to B Western was trying out his new Marlin. It locked up tighter than a Scot's purse, and yes, had a round ALMOST all the way in the chamber (later we found out manufacturing debris was blocking the lock block from fully locking or unlocking at the bolt). We used a handkerchief stuffed between the hammer and the bolt, carefully lowered the hammer, pinching the cloth so the FP could not be pushed, and he cased the gun in a soft case and put it in his car. We didn't have tools, and the shooter, wasn't marched out with an escort, no sirens blaring like a nuclear bomb was being moved, no armed troops following. He just made it as safe as possible and put it away, clear from the line, cased and secured like a sensible adult dealing with any potential hazard.

 

Am I missing something? "We used a handkerchief stuffed between the hammer and the bolt, carefully lowered the hammer, pinching the cloth so the FP could not be pushed, and he cased the gun in a soft case and put it in his car." It appears to me that you just described a way of leaving the firing line under supervision.

 

The rule says nothing of being escorted off the premises. It addresses the firing line. My interpretation of it: Attention shooter. Your gun is screwed up and your mind mind might be screwed up with it. Don't leave the friggin' firing line without involving a match official. He's might be thinking straighter than you because he's not teed off that his gun is broke.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Am I missing something? "We used a handkerchief stuffed between the hammer and the bolt, carefully lowered the hammer, pinching the cloth so the FP could not be pushed, and he cased the gun in a soft case and put it in his car." It appears to me that you just described a way of leaving the firing line under supervision.

 

The rule says nothing of being escorted off the premises. It addresses the firing line. My interpretation of it: Attention shooter. Your gun is screwed up and your mind mind might be screwed up with it. Don't leave the friggin' firing line without involving a match official. He's might be thinking straighter than you because he's not teed off that his gun is broke.

 

 

ya know, I missed something in PWB's "quote" reply. He didn't "splain" how this applies in the OP and I was guily of speed reading (poorly). IF the gun had been properly taken from the line to the ULT, NO MATTER HOW they resolve the issue, including deciding NOT to fix it, the guy's "all good" as long as he declared "broke gun" ON THE LINE and either handed it off, or was told, "take it to ULT". After that, I don't see a rule AT ALL.

 

We had a shooter today with a jammed up open top revolver at the LT. After a try or two to fix it, I suggested "why don't you borrow a gun and worry about it later?" I gave her one of mine (with ammo), and she handed her broke gun to a "tinkerer in residence" who took it to a safe place and figured out the problem and fixed it while she went ahead and shot the stage. No drama......

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Dang Buck , you and AJ are using way to much common sense. Good Luck

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Rio Brazos Kid]

One practice night, a shooter who was new to B Western was trying out his new Marlin. It locked up tighter than a Scot's purse, and yes, had a round ALMOST all the way in the chamber (later we found out manufacturing debris was blocking the lock block from fully locking or unlocking at the bolt). We used a handkerchief stuffed between the hammer and the bolt, carefully lowered the hammer, pinching the cloth so the FP could not be pushed, and he cased the gun in a soft case and put it in his car. We didn't have tools, and the shooter, wasn't marched out with an escort, no sirens blaring like a nuclear bomb was being moved, no armed troops following. He just made it as safe as possible and put it away, clear from the line, cased and secured like a sensible adult dealing with any potential hazard.

 

Jack,

That was the safe and sane way of handling the problem, and all done without alienating anyone or endangering anyone. Some of the responces in this thread make you wonder about some peoples sanity. As long as all precautions have been taken to insure that the gun can be safely transported to home or a qualified gunsmith, no one should be concerned. Escort him out if that is your rule, but it's his gun, and nobody has the right to deface or destroy it to satisfy their personal wishes. AND the breaking of the law thing. Pure B.S.

 

DLM

[Charlie Whiskers]

At our range we have a bay,table and tools that we use for problems with malfunctioning firearms.If the problem is such that it can't be cleared at the ULT,the shooter is accompanied to that bay where it can be safely worked on.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

To me, there's a big difference in the shooter saying, "Guys, we've done everything we can to clear this gun here. I need to take it home. I know there's a rule that says I need an escort, please get me an escort" as opposed to "this is my gun and I'll do whatever I please with it."

 

Really? And what is the difference?

 

Is the gun my property to do as I please or did it become property of the club when it malfunction?

If it is now the property of the club then the club has assumed all responsibility for repairs and returning the gun in undamaged safe working condition. So after the club returns the gun which they seized from the owner and certifies the gun has been repaired it blows up on the firing line injuring the shooter and bystanders. Is the club at large responsible for paying medical bills, replacing the gun and fighting the lawsuits for allowing a defective gun to be shot? Or are the individuals alone responsible for the damages and subject to a lawsuit which will bankrupt them?

 

There are damn few true gunsmiths but a lot of parts changers that think that makes them one. The fact that I choose to fix my gun in my air conditioned workshop with proper tools and a nice tall glass of sipping tea vs. on a table in the open, windy, HOT (103 degrees) yesterday with sweat running everywhere with borrowed tools is for me the wiser choice.

 

This is a example of where the Wire is not representative of actual SASS shooters. I have seen many gun malfunctions on the firing line and not once have I seen the shooter become so rattled that they were not capable of safey carrying their guns to their vehicle.

[Noz]

Screwdriver in the action...?????

 

Well frankly, I'd have called in Homeland Security...alerted NATO...call in the Feds. I mean...a LOADED gun...uhhh...I mean "Weapon" in a car...heaven forbid!!!!

 

Stoopid.

 

 

That's twice today I've agreed with the Phantom?

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Really? And what is the difference?

 

Is the gun my property to do as I please or did it become property of the club when it malfunction?

If it is now the property of the club then the club has assumed all responsibility for repairs and returning the gun in undamaged safe working condition. So after the club returns the gun which they seized from the owner and certifies the gun has been repaired it blows up on the firing line injuring the shooter and bystanders. Is the club at large responsible for paying medical bills, replacing the gun and fighting the lawsuits for allowing a defective gun to be shot? Or are the individuals alone responsible for the damages and subject to a lawsuit which will bankrupt them?

 

There are damn few true gunsmiths but a lot of parts changers that think that makes them one. The fact that I choose to fix my gun in my air conditioned workshop with proper tools and a nice tall glass of sipping tea vs. on a table in the open, windy, HOT (103 degrees) yesterday with sweat running everywhere with borrowed tools is for me the wiser choice.

 

This is a example of where the Wire is not representative of actual SASS shooters. I have seen many gun malfunctions on the firing line and not once have I seen the shooter become so rattled that they were not capable of safey carrying their guns to their vehicle.

 

How you manage to leap from what I said to what you are implying I said is beyond me. It's your gun. You can do whatever you want to do with your gun as long as you are not participating in a SASS event where you have, by your presence, agreed to abide by the rules. If that is not the case, then by all means please tell us which rules you intend to abide by and which you intend to ignore.

 

Again, how you manage to imply that I'm saying that you should turn Johnny -Wanna-B-A-Gunsmith loose on your gun is beyond me. I'm in the camp of those who think when a malfunctioned gun is taken to be worked on, the only person(s) who should work on the gun is the owner and the person(s) the owner has given permission to work on their gun. With that said, if the owner proves themselves incapable of making the gun safe, then I don't think it would come as any surprise that many if not most of us will want to see that the gun is safely moved to where it will be of no danger to anyone at the range. We might determine with little analysis that the owner is extremely capable of doing that for himself.

 

Regarding your last sentence, "I have seen many gun malfunctions on the firing line and not once have I seen the shooter become so rattled that they were not capable of safey carrying their guns to their vehicle." None of us has seen everything and hopefully we do not have to witness everything to learn. If so, it's going to be a hard life. For the record, I HAVE seen this very thing and from a person who under normal circumstances I would consider extremely knowledgeable. Yes, I have witnessed swelled chests and arrogance regarding what someone will do and won't do if presented with a particular situation and can testify to the fact that when looking from whence the danger comes, it is typically from the same direction as the arrogance.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

If that is not the case, then by all means please tell us which rules you intend to abide by and which you intend to ignore.

 

Easy. In the event my gun(s) malfunction I will attempt to fix the malfunction. If I decide that the problem should be fixed in my workshop with my own gunsmithing tools or by a gunsmith of my choice then I will render the gun in as safe condition as possible and I will carry it to my vehicle for transportation.

 

This means keep yer cotton picking hands off my stuff and yer nose out of my business unless I ask for it.

 

That sounds simple enough.

 

Again, how you manage to imply that I'm saying that you should turn Johnny -Wanna-B-A-Gunsmith loose on your gun is beyond me. I'm in the camp of those who think when a malfunctioned gun is taken to be worked on, the only person(s) who should work on the gun is the owner and the person(s) the owner has given permission to work on their gun. With that said, if the owner proves themselves incapable of making the gun safe, then I don't think it would come as any surprise that many if not most of us will want to see that the gun is safely moved to where it will be of no danger to anyone at the range. We might determine with little analysis that the owner is extremely capable of doing that for himself.

 

We are not in disagreement on this point. I believe that any rational, sane person would want to have his firearms safe from discharge. All I am saying is I am the person best qualified to make the decision and ask for help from a QUALIFIED person to do so. NOT SOME WELL MENING GUN MONKEE WITH SCREWDRIVER WANTING TO GO PRYING ON MY GUN!!! And you and I know they are at every match.

 

Regarding your last sentence, "I have seen many gun malfunctions on the firing line and not once have I seen the shooter become so rattled that they were not capable of safey carrying their guns to their vehicle." None of us has seen everything and hopefully we do not have to witness everything to learn. If so, it's going to be a hard life. For the record, I HAVE seen this very thing and from a person who under normal circumstances I would consider extremely knowledgeable. Yes, I have witnessed swelled chests and arrogance regarding what someone will do and won't do if presented with a particular situation and can testify to the fact that when looking from whence the danger comes, it is typically from the same direction as the arrogance.

What a bunch of liberal B.S. One shooter panics so all shooters will panic and need to be protected from themselves. I don't buy that theory. You see, I believe I am a sane, rational human being who can look at and assess a problem, arrive at a thought out plan of action and carry out that plan without endangering myself or others. It is a concept that is rapidly disappearing from America.

 

So we can agree on one out of three points. That is a start.

[Shooting Bull]

Yeeee GAWD, what in the Wide Wide World of Sports is wrong with you people?!?!?

 

Would it be too much to ask that for ONCE you simply answer the man's question without all the bickering and name calling???

 

I shoot with Ace of Hearts multiple times every month and I can tell you without any doubt at all that his sole consideration is for each and every shooter to have a safe FUN time. (And to call him a liberal makes YOU look like much more of a fool that it does him.)

 

In this specific case the shooter simply picked up his malfunctioning gun and left without telling anyone. That's against the rules. The question was, how would you handle it if it happend at your club? There was no arguing what you can and can't do with you own guns simply, what would you do if this happend at your club?

 

P.S. I also carry a loaded gun in my car most everywhere I go but, that's beside the point. The OP wasn't talking about a loaded gun, he was talking about a loaded MALFUNCTIONING gun. I agree with him, it's not an ideal situation. May not be preventable but, still not an ideal situation.

[Jacknife]

Philly, you asked "how would you handle it if it happened at your club"? I'd just wave bye to him and tell him to have a good 'un. Just lay the malfunctioning gun across the back seat and head on home.

 

What's the problem?

[Shooting Bull]

Philly, you asked "how would you handle it if it happened at your club"? I'd just wave bye to him and tell him to have a good 'un. Just lay the malfunctioning gun across the back seat and head on home.

 

What's the problem?

 

 

Without any insults or name calling? Guess there isn't a problem.

[Griff]

1st of all, get this Seldom Seen; I am a "Liberal"... in the sense that some folks need a liberal dose of their Daddy's belt. If you think callin' names is gonna make yer point any clearer... you're mistaken. I'll explain my comments more fully.

 

No man is an island. We will all be known by the actions of those around us. And, if you don't think of the consequences of your actions... someone else has to. You might be absolutely safe and sane in packaging your broken but loaded gun in a case and into your vehicle on a hundred thousand occasions... But... what happens on that hundred and first, when you're involved in a collision (let's assume not of your doin'), in the coarse of which the gun discharges. And, let's just suppose that some innocent 3rd party is only injured, not killed. It don't matter squat whether you take responsibility for your actions or not... once the lawyers are involved, any organization you're affiliated with is also exposed. If you've just left a gun range... guess who you just exposed to added liability... your supposed friends.

 

And in certain jurisdictions there is a huge difference between carrying a concealed handgun and carrying a loaded long gun. In case you don't happen to know it, a game warden doesn't have to have "probable cause" to search your vehicle if he has a articulable suspicion that you've been hunting illegally. A loaded long gun in your vehicle just might be his justification for arresting you, confiscating your guns and your car.

 

You have obviously mistaken my rather conservative view of both the wisdom and graciousness of the law enforcement community for some sort of fascist, goose-stepping autocracy. My concern for your rights and that you don't inadvertently lose the same by somehow becoming enmeshed with the law enforcement process thru no intent on your part has obviously been misplaced.

 

It's unfortunate that you've mis-identified my conservatism and concern for my fellow SASS shooter as some sort of hidden Marxist plot to control your every action.

 

The likelihood of the unthinkable happening? Low, maybe bordering on extremely low, but it's within the realm of calculable probabilities. So, my advise was simply to be prepared by avoiding the possibility.

 

Now, back to our regularly scheduled entertainment. New club forming, LIU, "Liberals Is Us." Memberships are free, just bring some uncommon good sense, a sense of humor and enough money to buy a round.

[Jacknife]

Griff, on the humorous wide of what you wrote. If I have to wait for the hundred thousand and onth time of hauling my loaded malfunctioning long gun for it to fire a round, I think I'll be home safe. Never had to do this the first time yet, so I suppose I wont live long enuf to get to one hundred thousand.

 

Bout as much likelyhood of getting hit with falling space debri as there is with this gun going off.

[Captain Bill Burt]

What a bunch of liberal B.S. One shooter panics so all shooters will panic and need to be protected from themselves. I don't buy that theory. You see, I believe I am a sane, rational human being who can look at and assess a problem, arrive at a thought out plan of action and carry out that plan without endangering myself or others. It is a concept that is rapidly disappearing from America.

 

So we can agree on one out of three points. That is a start.

 

Wow, trust me Buck's no liberal, nor have I ever known him to spout BS. YOU believe you can do all these things, but unfortunately you aren't shooting in a vacuum, there are other people there who may not know you or your capabilities. To ask them to put their safety on the line simply because YOU feel it will be OK seems a bit much. I've seen the consequences of a shooter losing their cool up close and personal and it ain't pretty or fun. The rules allow a certain degree of comfort while engaging in a sport that could easily result in serious injury.

 

Having said all that I certainly would not want to ( nor would I) have to let someone I am not familiar with tinker with my gun(s). It seems to me that Buck was simply saying that a little tact and politeness goes a long way. If I was at the ULT with my rifle in that condition I would simply inform the ULT officer that I wanted to secure it in my vehicle and have it looked at later by a person of my choosing. Could I just walk away with it? Sure, but why needlessly antagonize the people I shoot with, many of whom are my friends?

 

I think you can exercise your rights in that situation while being considerate of others' concerns, and trying your best to abide by the rules that you implicitly accepted when you showed up to shoot.

[Cypress Sun]

As per Palewolf's edit on post 3, there is no clear rule on what occured. It would not be a match DQ as there is no rule. As far as name calling, I believe that Ace of Hearts was simply trying to determine the correct course of action for such an occurrence, albeit a rare occurrence. The unloading table person knew he was leaving the match, should he have told the posse leader...yes.

 

I firmly believe that if a shooter has a malfunction with a gun, he is the only one who should have the say so over who works on the gun. As far as leaving the match with a malfuntioning loaded gun, the shooter is also (presumably) an adult who can make his/her own decisions on proper storage of the gun for the ride home. As long a the gun was safety maintained from unloading table to vehicle, I have no problem with the shooters actions.

 

Calling Ace of Hearts (or 99% of most folks here) a liberal is oxymoronic at best.

 

Sun

[Anvil Al #59168]

SS has a history of calling folks that.

Gets a some kind of wierd charge out of winding folks up.

Just ignore him. Maybe he will seldom be seen.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

WHAT I SHOULD HAVE SAID IS;

 

I believe I am responsible for making my own decisions and the consequences that result from them. So in regards to this issue I will attempt to clear the malfunction. If I am unable to then I may ask for for help from someone whose gunsmithing skills I know and trust OR I may choose to take the gun home for further inspection and repair.

 

If club officials want someone to escort my inoperative gun to my vehicle I have no objectives.

 

If you believe that I have no right transporting my own loaded gun home then your recourse would be through the club rules such as banning me from future matches. You, club officals and the almightly do not have the right to seize my property regardless of how well intention it may be.

 

Or in Texas call the Fish and Game Office and have me arrested for hunting out of season with a inoperable gun.

 

Likewise if you have a gun malfunction and wish to seek help from whoever is at the match then it is certainly none of my business and is most certainly your right. I also believe that it is none of my business how you get it home.

 

This to me seems like a reasonable attitude based on mutual respect for each others property. It is easy to get carried away sometimes in these discussions.

 

I also agree with Anvil Al about being weird. Weird but not kinky.....yet.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello Folks,

 

I just wanted to tell Philly "he da man." Then, he already knew I thought that on occasion.

 

Also, I ROTFL over Phantom's post 24.

 

Now back to another SASS Wire brawl.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Thank you to those that made helpful suggestions on what A CLUB CAN DO to help the shooter safely transport his firearm home and/or to a gunsmith.

 

I hadn't thought of a rag between the hammer and the firing pin but it will come to mind next time.

A box of heavy weight freezer bags to put the parts in might also be something the club could have on hand.

 

It's the little things and the helpful hands that bring shooters back to your range to shoot another day.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Years ago I was in the submarine force. When we were about to work on electronics we would cut the power then red tag the breaker. The tag told everyone not to reconnect power for safety reasons.

 

You probably would rarely use them, but something like that in conjunction with a zip tie might be a good idea. Obviously the meaning of the tag would need to be known by all.

[gunblade SASS #10206]

[quote

Thank you to those that made helpful suggestions on what A CLUB CAN DO to help the shooter safely transport his forearm home and/or to a gunsmith.

 

I would NEVER take a malfunctioning forearm to a gunsmith. A little Absorbine Jr. usually does the trick for me, but it is something I normally do at home.