Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Shooters rifle jams during stage. AT THE UNLOADING TABLE the shooter determines that the gun is stuck almost fully closed and he is unable to move the bolt back to extract the round jammed in the chamber. He unloads all the other rounds from the gun and without saying anything to anyone except the person supervising him at the unloading table, picks up his toys and heads for his car, loads up, and heads for home. (He determined at home that the jam was due to a split case in the chamber.) The person assisting him cannot remember if the hammer was gently lowered or not. Leaving the range with a LOADED weapon anywhere in your vehicle is not smart...... He should have been escorted off the range by another shooter. What else could a club do to provide help/assistance to a shooter with this type of problem? Perhaps the club could provide a hard plastic gun case painted red to put the gun in so there would be less chance of discharge on the way home. Bring it back the next time you come to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Of course! Paint the case red! This ALWAYS reduces the chance of a discharge! Perhaps if you make him drive home in a red vehicle, he'd be even safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 DELETED Apparently the rule that addresses this situation is irrelevant... as is the definition of "FIRING LINE" (RO1 p.30) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Sounds like the guy was pretty upset and didn't know what else to do. Anyone that's been shooting awhile knows that malfunctions happen and accepts that, but some people do get upset or embarrassed when things go wrong. He probably thought he was doing the right thing.Was this a fairly new shooter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake1001 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Someone should find out if a Gunsmith was on the range to help with making the rifle safe. A cleaning rod could have helped move the stuck round out of the chamber. Just sayin' Big Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I haven't really understood the problem. Does the round stuck in the chamber before firing (live round) or was it only the split case, after firing, which stuck the bolt semi closed? If the shooter and the TO can assume the round was fired, the gun can be considered as safe. There is no information in the subject about that. From the explanation he went to the ULT so if the TO worked according to the rules the shooter was under supervision from the shooting position to the ULT. His only fault was to leave the ULT with a gun not completely cleared, but it sometimes happens as we have a special call for this occurence, and such a malfuntion of his gun can bring you some brain fade about the rules, you're much more worried by the gun problem than by the actual rules to be followed, it's the offical's work to help you and coach you properly. As he emptied the mag at the ULT there were no other live rounds in the gun, so no more safety issues. According to the rules, the need for an official supervising him was not necessary from the ULT to the car. His gun was evidently stuck, has he declared a malfunction? I presume... With such a problem I can certainly think he felt more comfortable to work on his gun at his workshop than on the field (does the club offered him a local workshop to clear his gun?, better answer than a red painted box!). When he left the club, he had told to the "person supervising him" (I presume the ULTO), so the Posse could be aware that he left.... I know the rules are stating what call to do, but they state too not to be and hard ass! I think such a problem and leaving "in emergency" the field is an enough punishment for him, it was a DNF for the match, smarter than a MDQ, and a big friendly knap in the back at the next match to ask him if his gun was repaired!. But once again the main question "was the round stuck in the chamber fired (emptied) or not (live)" is not answered by the post, and without this main information it's difficult to state really on this case. That's my 2 pennies worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 If he told the ULT OFFICER he was leaving, and the ULT failed to say he was supposed to be escorted (what's that do for us exactly? I dunno) he exercized due dilligence and that's that. It isn't like he left the LINE with loaded guns and just bugged out. He tried and failed to clear the gun and I assume there was some conversation about that...... If the ULT officer didn't KNOW somebody was supposed to walk the guy to his car...... Maybe a ZIP TIE could be provided to wrap around the gun, between the hammer and the frame, assuring that even in the event of a car wreck it don't go off if it can't be properly made safe, but all the King's horses and all the king's men won't carry it to the car more safely than ONE GUY who knows what he's got... Reminds me of a time I bought a .22 at Walmart, and they had some 22 yr old clerk carry it out to my car for me. When we got out to the car, I flashed open my jacket and asked the kid if he was gonna carry my CCW piece too (of course he wasn't even licensed for CCW). Just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 No call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Shooters rifle jams during stage. AT THE UNLOADING TABLE the shooter determines that the gun is stuck almost fully closed and he is unable to move the bolt back to extract the round jammed in the chamber. He unloads all the other rounds from the gun and without saying anything to anyone except the person supervising him at the unloading table, picks up his toys and heads for his car, loads up, and heads for home. (He determined at home that the jam was due to a split case in the chamber.) The person assisting him cannot remember if the hammer was gently lowered or not. Leaving the range with a LOADED weapon anywhere in your vehicle is not smart...... He should have been escorted off the range by another shooter. What else could a club do to provide help/assistance to a shooter with this type of problem? Perhaps the club could provide a hard plastic gun case painted red to put the gun in so there would be less chance of discharge on the way home. Bring it back the next time you come to shoot. I always arrive and leave with a loaded gun in my vehicle, usually more than one. So long as the malfunctioning gun was handled in a safe manner, I don't see what the big deal is. CS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Shooters rifle jams during stage. AT THE UNLOADING TABLE the shooter determines that the gun is stuck almost fully closed and he is unable to move the bolt back to extract the round jammed in the chamber. He unloads all the other rounds from the gun and without saying anything to anyone except the person supervising him at the unloading table, picks up his toys and heads for his car, loads up, and heads for home. (He determined at home that the jam was due to a split case in the chamber.) The person assisting him cannot remember if the hammer was gently lowered or not. Leaving the range with a LOADED weapon anywhere in your vehicle is not smart...... Really, well you have a tough road ahead of you with the CCW bunch. Also you said the shooter was at the unloading table so the gun did not have a live round in the chamber. He should have been escorted off the range by another shooter. What pray tell, is the role of the escorting shooter? What else could a club do to provide help/assistance to a shooter with this type of problem? You just said the shooter was AT THE UNLOADING TABLE. Make up your mind. Is the gun loaded or not?Quit being a HARD ASS and USE SOME COMMON SENSE. Not all malfunctions can be cleared on the line and I will not allow wannabe gun monkees start prying on my gun without proper tools. I am inclined to believe the shooter knew he was getting a DNF for the remaining stages. Perhaps the club could provide a hard plastic gun case painted red to put the gun in so there would be less chance of discharge on the way home. Your words; Leaving the range with a LOADED weapon anywhere in your vehicle is not smart...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Whatever you do - If there is a loaded round in the chamber, DON'T try to drive it out with a ramrod with the round in contact with the bolt. In some rifles, particularly Uberti Model 73's & '66's, the inertia of the firing pin and extension will fire the primer. Not good for the person holding the ramrod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 PWB, Just what is one supposed to do if the firearm cannot be cleared at the line with the tools that are available. Not every match has a gunsmith with enough tools present to clear all circumstances (yes a broad assumption but I would estimate true). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Maybe he needs a lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 AoH, No where in your post did you say it was a "live" rnd. Was it? Respectfully, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 The stuck split case indicates that it was probably spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 C.S, agree to a point. BUT,, it's up to the OP to make that MAJOR issue clear(he did NOT do so, BTW)and NOT for us to "WAG" about it Respectfully, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 The round in the chamber was UNFIRED. Of course the cowboy is going to receive a Match DQ, but I don't think he really was concerned about that seeing as he didn't finish the match anyhow. My question here is not what we can DO TO THE SHOOTER as far as penalties and any chastisement but how we can safely assist him with his problem. My suggestion of the hard case was in lieu of shoving the gun in a soft case or simply on the floorboard in the back seat. The occurrence is a rare one. For those of you with helpful suggestions..... Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Regardless of rules and penalties, Don't pound on a ramrod to drive the case out without first disconnecting the bolt from the case rim. The round WILL GO OFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 IMO, there are 4 issues that need addressing in such circumstance. We'll ignore the fact that he doesn't how to disassemble a malfunctioning weapon or doesn't want some wannabe gun monkey attempting to "fix" the problem. 1. Protection and safety of the participants & spectators. 2. Compliance with Range & Match rules. 3. Protection of the club. 4. Compliance with the Law. Each of those should overlap, in the sense that in ensuring you do one, you are complying with another one or more; hopefully all four. Layers of safety you might say. i.e., if you can ensure the protection and safety of participants & spectators, you've also protected the club from possible legal action on that front. If you follow all range & match rules, you're also fairly certain to be in compliance State law. As I'm not aware of any range or SASS rules that allow, let alone require breaking of a law. Depending on your state, putting a loaded long gun in your car is more'n likely against the law; even for a CCW holder. You might just be in violation of State hunting laws in addition to carry laws. At the very least, do you want to spend a night in jail while the area's sharpest legal mind figure a way to make a felon out of you? Even if you're completely in compliance with law... you ain't ever heard of someone having their civil rights violated? Let me put it this way, would you rather have a little additional scratch on yer already beat-up CAS gun or a story about yer night with Bubba in lockup, then the expense of trying to get that arrest expunged from your record for "feloniously carrying a firearm"? I'll tellin' ya right now, SCRATCH AWAY!" Maybe cowboys are different in your part of the country, but around here, they'd probably offer to get it refinished for ya... even if the scratches YOU put there are far worse. We insist that the gun be cleared before it leaves. If it can't be cleared on the line or ULT, the gun, you and a knowledgeable gun monkee are moving to an unused bay to make it so. If anything, there's too much help offered at our club.Intensive care patients should have so much attention. I ain't a gunsmith, but with exception of some shotguns, there ain't much in the way of cowboy guns my tool kit won't dismantle. And if you insist, have at it yourself, you're welcome to borrow my tools. Heck on a couple of occasions, I've seen someone even given the part to relace that which was broken and they were able to finish the match. FREE gun repair, while you wait... what could be better? AoH, my suggestion is simply to identify those with a modicum ofgunsmithin' talent, generally have some tools with them and a willingness to help if the need arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 AoH, thx for clearing up my question The MD for that shoot should have a real "heart-to-heart" with the shooter in question. And a few words with the UTO for not speaking up. What type of rifle was it? Cheers, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Leaving the range with a LOADED weapon anywhere in your vehicle is not smart...... I guess a whole lot of shooters leave the range with loaded guns in their vehicles, and come to the range with loaded guns in their vehicles. They leave the loaded guns locked in their vehicles while they shoot??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 AoH, thx for clearing up my question The MD for that shoot should have a real "heart-to-heart" with the shooter in question. And a few words with the UTO for not speaking up. What type of rifle was it? Cheers, LG The rifle happened to be a Marlin but I didn't want to make this incident specific. The Bolt was closed far enough that you could barely insert part of a screwdriver blade in the opening. And this is surely not the correct way to try and open the bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Just an FYI. A Marlin WILL come apart if the lever pivot screw is removed. Sometimes ya gotta unscrew it as far as possible then drift the screw free after the threads are unscrewed, but once the lever is out, the bolt is free. Once the BOLT and ejector are removed, it's safe to drift the stuck round backward with a rod (I still would keep the muzzle above face level and not stand in front of the rod while ya do, but if the bolt and ejector are OUT, there's nothin to hit the primer.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Screwdriver in the action...????? Well frankly, I'd have called in Homeland Security...alerted NATO...call in the Feds. I mean...a LOADED gun...uhhh...I mean "Weapon" in a car...heaven forbid!!!! Stoopid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 So, "Leaving the range with a LOADED gun in your vihicle is not smart"? Well then, there must be a several thousands of idiots in Texas. When the Highway Patrol in Texas stops a vehicle the first thing they do is ask if there is any weapons in the car. If the answer is "no" the next thing he does is hand em one and tell em to use it if necessary. Maybe I oughta paint my holster red so I know it's loaded also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Griff, I started working on a reply to your points then I realized your view is typical of most liberals. Sufficent to say that I believe I alone am responsible for my decisions and the consequences that come with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Seldom Seen, I know where ya are coming from, and just think, he is from Texas too. Talk about overkill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Addressing the "what can you do to prevent shooter from taking off", we try to always include in our safety briefing a reminder that a malfunctioning gun may not be removed from the unloading table until cleared. And we announce who in attendance that day are gunsmiths or serious gun tinkerers who would be capable of assisting. Just as we did at today's match. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Garrison Joe, what are ya gonna do when time comes that shooter has a stuck case in chamber and says he don't want a wannabe gunsmith messin with his gun? He gets ready to take er home and to the gunsmith. What is your next move gonna be, tackle him and let him up after someone has gouged his 73 all over with a screwdriver try into free the stuck case? Something to think about maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 PWB, Just what is one supposed to do if the firearm cannot be cleared at the line with the tools that are available. Not every match has a gunsmith with enough tools present to clear all circumstances (yes a broad assumption but I would estimate true). As I look into my crystal ball.....they leave the firing line under the direct supervision of a Match Official. Okay, I didn't really look into a crystal ball...but I did read PWB's entire post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Garrison Joe, what are ya gonna do when time comes that shooter has a stuck case in chamber and says he don't want a wannabe gunsmith messin with his gun? He gets ready to take er home and to the gunsmith. What is your next move gonna be, tackle him and let him up after someone has gouged his 73 all over with a screwdriver try into free the stuck case? Something to think about maybe. He leaves under the direct supervision of a Match Official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Buck, I agree with that in a way, but in Garrison Joe's case his range rules state that you can't leave the unloading table with it. Aren't clubs able to make rules that override SASS rules? Seems like this is what is happening here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Addressing the "what can you do to prevent shooter from taking off", we try to always include in our safety briefing a reminder that a malfunctioning gun may not be removed from the unloading table until cleared. And we announce who in attendance that day are gunsmiths or serious gun tinkerers who would be capable of assisting. Just as we did at today's match. Good luck, GJ In the end, it's the SHOOTER's gun. He's a grown individual with every right to take control of his property. If pushed, he might tell you to take yer MDQ and yer RO badge and (thought better of completing this thought).... No sense making enemies. Our GOAL is to safely assist the shooter. The ULTO IS A MATCH OFFICIAL. If I'm ULTO and we've done everything possible wth the resources and PERMISSIONS available, and can't clear the gun, we now do all the shooter will LET US do to make it as safe as possible for transport, decide how it is to be carried (likely muzzle up to the parking lot), and wish him well at his gunsmith's. Unless the shooter is somehow showing signs he is not stable at the moment, he's a grown person, if I as ULTO tell him "Carry it muzzle up straight to the truck, that's the rule" he don't need a babysitter. PS, YES, I have disassembled guns at the ULT or other safe area, (had a marlin totally gutted one day, all the screws in my pocket, etc) but that's with the shooter's consent. HE OWNS IT. I've also seen a jammed '73 end up blowing up a round on the carrier, destroying the carrier, and scaring heck out of the "helper" and the shooter when they tried to drift a squib back from the chamber..... Why? Over-application of the "we gotta clear it" mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Buck, I agree with that in a way, but in Garrison Joe's case his range rules state that you can't leave the unloading table with it. Aren't clubs able to make rules that override SASS rules? Seems like this is what is happening here. Referring back to PWB's post, the SHB says it cannot be removed from the firing line uncleared. I'm not sure I understand what you're asking, but yes, clubs fairly typically add rules to SASS rules. I might have misunderstood GJ's post, but I took it that it was pointed out to shooters that uncleared firearms are not to leave the line. A reminder of what most of us know, but when one thing goes wrong, our minds don't always do the best job of sorting things out from that point forward. As AJ pointed out, ultimately it is the shooter's gun, BUT IMO the shooter, as well as any match official, should avoid getting their butts on their shoulders and think the situation through. If there's a rule in place (as there is here), then follow the rule. It's there for a reason. To me, there's a big difference in the shooter saying, "Guys, we've done everything we can to clear this gun here. I need to take it home. I know there's a rule that says I need an escort, please get me an escort" as opposed to "this is my gun and I'll do whatever I please with it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 One practice night, a shooter who was new to B Western was trying out his new Marlin. It locked up tighter than a Scot's purse, and yes, had a round ALMOST all the way in the chamber (later we found out manufacturing debris was blocking the lock block from fully locking or unlocking at the bolt). We used a handkerchief stuffed between the hammer and the bolt, carefully lowered the hammer, pinching the cloth so the FP could not be pushed, and he cased the gun in a soft case and put it in his car. We didn't have tools, and the shooter, wasn't marched out with an escort, no sirens blaring like a nuclear bomb was being moved, no armed troops following. He just made it as safe as possible and put it away, clear from the line, cased and secured like a sensible adult dealing with any potential hazard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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