Uberti FTF when cycled rapidly

[Apothecary Pat]

I have two Uberti El Patron Colt copies. If I shoot slowly they function quite well. If I operate them as rapidly as I am capable (and I'm not really all that fast) I will get a FTF at least once every 25 rds or so. It appears to be a timing issue. I can see a dent on the brass that appears to be made by the firing pin/hammer nose. The dent is not on the primer, but on the brass cartridge. The first thing I did was return the revolvers to Uberti but whatever the Uberti smith did, it didn't solve the problem. I was told by a local smith that this problem is often caused by weak bolt springs. I replaced the Wolff springs with original style springs and that didn't solve the problem. I've read up on poor reliability of the Ubertis with the retractable firing pins and many have said FTF due to weak strikes is solved by replacing the safety hammer and trigger with a '4-click hammer and trigger'. Do the readers here think my problem is likely solved by this conversion? I have a pair of Vaqueros that are my main match guns and these function perfectly so they'll continue to be my match guns. However I'd really like to get the Ubertis functioning properly. I'll appreciate any help.

 

Thanks

Apothecary Pat

SASS 108786

[Shawnee Hills]

If the firing pin is striking the cartridge head instead of the primer, you’re not getting proper lockup of the cylinder.  Sounds like the bolt needs fitted to the locking notches. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

If the firing pin hits are off-center then no I don't think it is a result of the 3-click hammer system.  You already replaced the bolt spring, so let me ask you about the hand spring - how strong is that?  If you can spin it and it goes on for more than a few chambers, then the hand spring may be contributing to the problem.  If it is too weak then your cocking technique comes into play as well.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Cyl stop ain't do'n the job. 

Do these have that dang firing g pin safety nonsense? 

[Rum Crook, SASS #55339]

I believe that you are saying that the small dent is to the primer.  Your problem is most likely the retracting firing pin.  I bought one El Patron, and had lots of problems with failure to fire.  I believe that I was pulling the trigger until the hammer began to fall, then releasing the trigger.  If I fired and intentionally pulled the trigger back as far as I could, I didn't have the problem.  But I couldn't seem to do that when shooting a stage.  The problem, I believe, is the firing pin has moved back from it's most forward position at contact with the primer, thus lightly denting the primer.

 

I bought the 4 click hammer and trigger from VTI for the Cattleman, and installed both and have no problems.  I believe that someone in another post said that Long Hunter and others had a kit including hammer and trigger that was less expensive than VTI.

[Rum Crook, SASS #55339]

If you search for a post by H. K. Uriah, titled "Send in the Clones and look at the safeties and other differences" , about 1/2 way through the posts, I posted a copy of the Uberti page showing the retractible firing pin operation.  If you bought your El Patrons new,  you probably have the user guides.

[Sedalia Dave]

Need to know if the cylinder is under or over rotating.  Fire the gun until you get a round that fails to fire.  Now open the loading gate and put the hammer on Half Cock.  Rotate the cylinder until the round that failed to fire is visible.

 

Now where is the firing pin hitting the case?  If it is below the primer when viewed through the loading gate then the cylinder is not fully rotating to the point where the bolt is dropping into the notch. This is almost always caused by poor timing.

 

If it is above the primer then the cylinder is over rotating. This is caused by the bolt not properly dropping into the cylinder notch and allowing the cylinder to over rotate.

 

Over rotation can be caused by a weak or broken bolt spring or if the bolt is too wide for the notches in the cylinder.  Being as you already changed out the bolt spring to the factory one I'm betting that the bolt is too wide for the notch.

 

You can see how to check and correct this issue in the nice how to article that Larsen Pettifogger wrote several years ago.

While this document is about Pietta Open Tops everything about bolt fitment including corrective action is applicable to your SAA.

Bolt fitment starts on page 6

 

Tuning the Pietta - Part One.pdf

 

 

The complete docs can be found in this thread

 

[Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372]

Purchased 2 El Patrons new.  Both had the same problem (or it could have been me with my actions on the trigger).  Fought with them for 4 months until I changed out the hammer and trigger to a 4 click model.  Problems went away......

[The Surgeon]

I Had this problem with one of my revolvers. I thought I was short stroking the action during the stage but at the end of one of the stages it happened I noticed the same little dent on the brass that you see.  When I got home and took the guns apart to clean and put back together I was pulling on the hammer as hard as I could and every 10 or so times the cylinder would keep spinning and stop half way between the chambers. 

 

Turns out when I took the gun back apart the screw that pushes on the hand spring was almost completely backed out I screwed it back in and the problem went away. I would check that first. 

[Ranger Dan]

I had same problem with same gun (El Patron). Sent back to Uberti, they returned it, still had same issue. Cylinder failing to lock up, probably a timing or bolt not seating properly in the cylinder. Only happened about every 10 to 15 times and only when attempting to fire it fast. Even the gunsmith at the shop I bought it at tested and agreed it was defective, but would not fix it as it was under warranty and Uberti wouldn't fix it either. Traded it back in for a Cattleman that didn't do that.

 

Added: eventually it will stop close enough to set off a round that is not aligned with the barrel and spray lead back at you. Not good.

Edited January 23 by Ranger Dan

[Diamond Jake]

I also had that problem with my Ubertis using wire-style Bolt Springs.  However, two of the original flat-style bolt springs broke in less than 4 full seasons.  I don't know if both springs were from the same revolver or if each revolver broke their original springs.

 

Since then I replaced the entire revolvers with a pair of Great Western IIs (Pietta) and haven't had the problem since.

[Apothecary Pat]

Thanks everyone for your comments. 

 

Yes, I did buy these new in fall 2019.  Yes I did RTM.  They came with the original style bolt springs replace with lighter Wolff springs. That's why I was so eager to replace the bolt springs with the original style spring. These are the 'safety hammers' and the revolvers were supposed to be tuned at the factory. The actions are quite slick but since they're supposed to be tuned at the factory I'll be nice and say the problem doesn't speak well for Uberti.

 

Rum: to be clear, this is not a light primer strike. The hammer nose is striking the cartridge head.

 

Sedalia Dave, thanks a ton for that PDF. I've tried to recreate the problem with snap caps. So far I haven't observed any dents on the heads of the snap caps. When it warms up here in Minnesota I'll bring the revolvers to the range and see how that goes. I haven't yet studied the pdf you attached but it should be very useful. I agree with Ranger Dan's assessment that it could be a real problem in due course if it isn't corrected.

 

Surgeon: that's the first thing I'm going to do this weekend. Thanks. Based on information below this could be at least part of the problem

 

Abilene: I don't know how strong the springs are or how strong they're supposed to be. I did check that indirectly by depressing the hand with a spring tension gauge. On one of the revolvers 2.5 lbs was sufficient to depress the hand into the frame. On the other it was less than 1 lb. I don't know what the specs are but that very well may be the problem with at least one of the revolvers.  I'm hoping following The Surgeon's advice will solve that. I also tried spinning the cylinders. Neither cylinder will rotate more than 1/2 turn when spun with or without snap caps in the chambers.

 

Thanks again,

Pat

 

 

["Big Boston"]

I have a Smoke Wagon, and I believe mechanically it is the same as a El Patron, IOW it has the retractile safety. But as you have stated, that part of the mechanism doesn't seem to be the issue as you have a solid firing pin strike on the brass. 

 

My Smoke Wagon was procured used, so my issues may have been induced after the firearm left the factory, but it may also be indicative of the quality standards to which they are built. But just like back in the day, gunsmiths were a necessity to keep, or get a handgun working properly. I see that the Pettifogger files have been mentioned. Those files were at the core of my resource information. I also found some information on SAA timing to compliment the Pettifogger files. 

 

You've already had it apart and have changed springs, so you know your way around the parts. Before checking the operation, the parts inside should be clean and lubed. On my SW I ended up buying a new hand and I also changed the retractile firing pin pieces. They may have been OK, but the RFP didn't seem to be working correctly. 

On to the clicks. I check the clicks with a smooth and very slow pulling back of the trigger. The fist click is the half cock, if the ejector rod is working correctly, and the chamber is in the center of the loading gate slot, that's probably not an issue. The second click drops the bolt into the ramp area of the notch. This drop is usually at the point where the ramp just begins. The third or last click is the hammer dropping into the sear notch. This last click should occur concurrent with the bolt locking the cylinder. On mine, the cylinder had not turned enough and the bolt was not in battery with the hammer in the sear. This does require a very smooth and slow pull on the hammer and you need to stop just as the trigger drops into the sear notch. My hand had some timing adjustment marks, so I replaced it to get back to as close to as issued as I could. Sorry, not real technical but basically that will confirm if the timing is within normal operating parameters or not. To be thorough, check all six. My other experience with these was mostly undoing "adjustments" that the previous owners had experimented with. Sometimes guns are sold because they have flaws, and not all the flaws were there from the factory. 

I'd like to add that it's been my experience that new parts from Uberti are built precise enough that no fine tuning is needed. I'm old school, get the operation correct, and let normal use slick itself. My gunsmith paygrade isn't very high, my slicking skills stop at removing the odd burr, smoothing the odd friction point and making sure the guns guts are clean and lubricated. 

 

There is a whole bunch of experience that frequents this forum, and a lot of problem solvers as well, posting pictures will let other eyes see the parts. 

 

BB

 

 

[Apothecary Pat]

Thanks, BB and yup, I'm a big fan of lube. After having a look at the PDFs last night I did some additional tinkering. I cycled the actions and the hammer bolt appears to be operating well - quite like you described it should be operating. I could only properly see what's happening when cycling the revolvers slowly. The bolt seems to go in battery quite well and the cylinders seem to lock with very little play. I measured the slots in the cylinder. One one of them the ends measured 4.03 mm +/- .02 mm. The centers measured about 0.05 mm smaller. The other cylinder had slots that were all about 0.05 mm smaller. I haven't taken a look at the bolts yet as my caliper is far too large to fit inside the frame. The next time I disassemble the guns I'll put the caliper on the bolts to see if that could be a problem. If I see anything that looks out of ordinary I'll post some pics. 

 

The cylinders are numbered to match the frames.  Since I can measure a difference width of the the slots of the cylinders I am beginning to wonder if maybe that could be it. I wonder if maybe I have swapped the cylinders without noticing and there was a mismatch in the bolt-cylinder fit. Usually when I field strip the revolvers for routine cleaning I do them one by one so that's not likely to happen. The width difference is small so I'm not sure if that's enough to cause a problem but I can test it. 

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Apothecary Pat said:

Thanks, BB and yup, I'm a big fan of lube. After having a look at the PDFs last night I did some additional tinkering. I cycled the actions and the hammer bolt appears to be operating well - quite like you described it should be operating. I could only properly see what's happening when cycling the revolvers slowly. The bolt seems to go in battery quite well and the cylinders seem to lock with very little play. I measured the slots in the cylinder. One one of them the ends measured 4.03 mm +/- .02 mm. The centers measured about 0.05 mm smaller. The other cylinder had slots that were all about 0.05 mm smaller. I haven't taken a look at the bolts yet as my caliper is far too large to fit inside the frame. The next time I disassemble the guns I'll put the caliper on the bolts to see if that could be a problem. If I see anything that looks out of ordinary I'll post some pics. 

 

The cylinders are numbered to match the frames.  Since I can measure a difference width of the the slots of the cylinders I am beginning to wonder if maybe that could be it. I wonder if maybe I have swapped the cylinders without noticing and there was a mismatch in the bolt-cylinder fit. Usually when I field strip the revolvers for routine cleaning I do them one by one so that's not likely to happen. The width difference is small so I'm not sure if that's enough to cause a problem but I can test it. 

 

Look carefully at the sides of the bolt notches to see if the bolt is peening the edges as shown in the below picture.

 

 

[Apothecary Pat]

Thanks, SD.

 

I've done that and I don't see anything like what's in the picture. Some of the bluing has been removed from the 'B' side of both of mine. On one of them the A side appears pristine, and on the other there's some wear of the bluing. However, I don't see any evidence of peening the edges. I haven't fired the revolvers much compared to my match guns so maybe it just hasn't had time to show up. I also don't see any evidence of peening on the bolts. I haven't put them under a magnifying glass so maybe there's a little peening that I can't see with my presbyopic eyes. If you think it will help I can post pics this evening.

 

When I cycle the revolvers slowly what I see is that the bolt hits the 'B' side as the cylinder rotates, and then appears to slide down into the bolt notch. At that point the cylinders seem locked up pretty well.

[Apothecary Pat]

Here are what the cylinders look like. The first two are from the cylinder with the smaller bolt notches. The last is from the cylinder with the larger notches. All the notches on the cylinders look like the ones in the photos as far as I can tell. It looks to me like the bolt is hitting the bottom of the notches as I can see the bluing shows wear. The metal at the edges of the cylinders does not show wear like the example SD posted. The edges feel sharp and unworn to my fingers but the photos do seem to show some wear in the first two pics.

Edited January 25 by Apothecary Pat

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Wonder if the cyl stop is bouncing out of the notch?

Maybe a stronger hand spring is needed? 

[Shawnee Hills]

On 1/25/2024 at 7:03 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Wonder if the cyl stop is bouncing out of the notch?

Maybe a stronger hand spring is needed? 

Sure does look like the bolt is bouncing out of the notch.  An oversized bolt or a weak bolt spring could cause that.  Pat, I really that you need to remove the bolt and physically check its fit with every notch on the cylinder.  If that check passes, then check your bolt spring.  If that passes then you'll need to investigate further down the line.  I can't tell exactly from your pictures but it appears that the timing of the bolt drop may be a bit late.  If so, that may be the problem.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I seldom reply to posts anymore but just finished tuning a pair of Uberti Runnin Iron short strokes for a future Chronicle article and experienced about a one in fifteen shot over rotation.  These have the retracting firing pins.  Some basic questions:

 

You said you purchased these guns in 2019.  That is five years ago.  Have they always had this problem or did it just start recently?  If the problem just started recently it is an entirely different inquiry.  Either something has broken or is worn.

 

Is this gun a short stroke or standard stroke?

 

Is the set screw that holds in the hand spring installed?  The Uberti hand spring is extremely short.  Some people have recommended leaving the screw out.  On my two guns this left virtually no pressure on the hand and it over rotated almost every time it was cocked.  The screw needs to be in place unless the spring is replaced with a longer spring.

 

Have you checked the bolt drop timing?  On both of mine (which are about 300 numbers apart) the bolt timing was way off.  (The bolt to notch fit was also not too good.)  Get in some strong light with the gun oriented like in this photo and SLOWLY cock the gun until the bolt drops and look where it dropped.  Do this several times to make sure you are getting a good indication of where the bolt is dropping.  In this photo the bolt head is at 12 o'clock and the notch and 6 o'clock.  The bolt head is actually overhanging the notch.  The bolt is dropping LATE.

 

 

I shot the gun as is and got about a one out fifteen instance of over rotation.  I tried it in its stock setting as the short stroke parts are very hard to get and the geometry is quite different from a standard stroke and I did not want to risk ruining the short stroke parts.  After a range session I figured the guns were unshootable so I decided to try and adjust the bolt drop.  I slowly filed on the bolt with a fine diamond file and tried it in the guns numberous times until the bolt head dropped in the middle of the bolt lead.   (I also made a simple jig to be able to see a side view of the hammer cam/bolt leg relationship.)  Because of the lighting it looks like the bolt is hanging in the air above the bolt notch.  It is actually sitting in the middle of the lead in front of the notch.  For these guns this solved the over rotation problem. 

 

 

On a standard stroke gun adjusting the bolt to drop earlier is fairly easy.  Basically a tiny amount of material is removed from D.  On a short stroke I would take it to someone that KNOWS how to adjust Uberti short strokes.

 

 

[Apothecary Pat]

 

 

Larsen: the guns are standard, not short stroke. Like I said above they were like this new and have been returned to Uberti. Uberti didn't solve the problem.  

 

For now, my work on this is on hold. Had to travel due to family matters. I greatly appreciate everyone's advice and will follow up on your advice when I return. For me that's a weekend day project and not something I'm willing to do an evening after working all day - might be a couple weeks before I'll be able to focus on that. I'll post an update when it's done. In the meantime I'll follow the thread in case anyone has additional comments.

 

thanks again,

Pat

[Apothecary Pat]

OK, I have one of the revolvers disassembled. The set screw for the hand spring had nearly completely backed out. I manually checked fit of cyl bolt to cyl and that is very tight. I measured the width of both the bolts and each notch. On 2 of the notches the bolt is only 0.01 mm narrower than the notch but I can fit the bolt inside the notch.  I will tighten the set screw. I am tempted to stop there, reassemble the revolver and test its function @ the range. Does anyone recommend narrowing the bolt or adjusting the bolt drop?

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

The tiny hand spring set screw on the Ubertis should be just even with the back of the frame.  If it was "backed out" further than that then the backstrap would not be able to tighten flush to the frame.

 

You need to check the timing as Larsen indicated above.  When the bolt head pops up out of the frame and hits the cylnder, it should ideally hit in about the center of the lead (the ramp into the notch).  If it is hitting late, then it is easy to take a bit off the bolt leg to make it happen earlier.  I can't say if you should shave the bolt head, but the timing needs to be right before anything else.

 

Good luck.

Edited February 17 by Abilene, SASS # 27489

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I'd probably use a hard stone and just lightly polish the bolt nose sides and corners at the A position in diagram above.  Just enough to make sure you have any minute burr removed, and enough to just remove the blueing or any manufacturing defect in the surface.  If no stone, get some 600 grit sandpaper and hold it tightly over a small piece of flat hardwood (oak or walnut are fine), and polish the surface with that. 

 

good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

How well does the cyl stop fit in the frame cut out?

Edited February 17 by The Original Lumpy Gritz

[Apothecary Pat]

OK. Looks like bolt was dropping early. I have some extra fine hard stones and diamond sharpening files from my days as a butcher. Polished sides of bolt and shaved a tiny bit off the 'D' surface with the finest diamond file I have. When it warms up here in Minnesota I will take the revolver to the range and see how it goes.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

You said the bolt was dropping early.  If it is indeed early, then it would not be part of the problem.  If it is early, then it is at the very beginning of the lead or even before that, and starts to leave a line on the cylinder just before the lead.  Cosmetically that isn't good, but it won't cause the over-rotation.

 

Maybe shaving on the bolt will do the trick.

Edited February 17 by Abilene, SASS # 27489

[Tyrel Cody]

will Uberti not replace the guns entirely or even better give you a refund; kind of ridiculous they can’t or won’t fix the problems problem.

 

 

 

 

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

Am I wrong or do I never hear about this problem with the Pietta single action clones? 
BTW I’m a Ruger guy. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

BTW, you can test it without going to the range.  Load dummies with bullets in them (so they are as heavy as real ammo) and first load 5 which will give the cylinder more inertia and also try with just 2 or 3 so the weight is only on one side.   Cock and dryfire (or let the hammer down) as much as you want, at any speed you want, but look down at the gun from the top every time you cock it.  The cylinder flutes are evenly spaced on either side of the top strap and if it over-rotates you can see by the flutes.  Firing shouldn't really affect this but of course live fire at the range will be the proof.

[Apothecary Pat]

5 hours ago, Apothecary Pat said:

Dang it yes I did say early. The bolt is dropping LATE.

[Apothecary Pat]

Abilene 

 

I have tried that with snap caps that weigh about as much as the ammo I use. So far I haven't seen over or under rotation.

[Shawnee Hills]

20 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Am I wrong or do I never hear about this problem with the Pietta single action clones? 
BTW I’m a Ruger guy. 

I've had three pairs of Piettas that had oversize bolts needing fitted to the cylinder notches.  One pair were GWIIs and the others were Frontier.  Granted, three is a very small sample size but it's been my understanding (based on posts from folks that work on them) that it's fairly common with Piettas.  Thankfully it's an easy fix.

[Sedalia Dave]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:06 PM, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Am I wrong or do I never hear about this problem with the Pietta single action clones? 
BTW I’m a Ruger guy. 

 

Really common on Pietta Open tops.  All three of mine had this issue.

[Apothecary Pat]

Sorry about the delay in getting an update posted. I adjusted the bolt timing of one of the revolvers as Mr Pettifogger suggested. After working with the snap caps as described above, I took both revolvers to the range and ran about 75 rds through each. The revolver with the adjusted bolt timing performed flawlessly while I had 4 FTF due to over rotation on the other revolver. With that done I'll perform the same adjustment on the malfunctioning revolver and I think that should do it. FWIW, I did indeed remove a VERY tiny amount of the bolt surface as suggested, expecting that I might have to come back and remove more. I felt like what I did was more polishing with a hard extra fine honing stone than anything else. That was all that was necessary with that revolver. Thanks a ton for all your comments and suggestions.