Matthew Duncan Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) Bought a CZ Sharp-tail Coach SxS. Very stiff to open. Watching Saturday westerns while opening and shutting the action a million times to work the stiffness out. Any Cowpokes with experience with the Sharp-tail with practical advice on how to get this ready for the 2024 SASS season? Edited February 14 by Matthew Duncan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Maverick Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) I have 2 of them and both were tuned by Ken Griner and open easy. That being said you will still need to finish breaking them in. My primary that I shoot the most is smoother than the backup which I shoot about every 3 months or if shooting black powder I use my backup. He changes out most of the internals with new parts and they are tuned for you. It is hard to do it yourself unless you are a gunsmith or very familiar with working on firearms. TM Edited February 5 by Texas Maverick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Your children will be grandparents before it is easy to break open if all you do is use it. It needs work. Ken Griner is said to do great work. Longhunter used to work on them but I don't know if he does his magic on these anymore. Shotgun Boogie sells his lightened spring set for it. If you want to do the work yourself, you can chamfer the chamber mouths, trim off the extractor's ears, and polish all moving parts (including the cocking rods and the extractor shaft and the tunnels those parts move within with a Dremel tool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 I have the coach gun and it was stiff when new. Shoot a flat of shells through it and it opened a lot easier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 One thing that potentially makes a big difference with the Sharp-Tail SxS is the length of the cocking rods. When you watch the action (side plates removed) when the gun is cocked, you may notice a substantial amount of overtravel of the hammers past the point where they have already been engaged and retained by the sears. In my opinion, all of that overtravel is just extra work against the mainsprings and totally unnecessary. I shortened mine. I've provided these step-by-step instructions for shortening the rods (that I developed for my own work) to other pards; I make no promises whether the instructions will work for you. And be careful -- if a rod is too short by even one mil, the hammer will not be caught by the sear and you will not be able to cock the gun on that side, period. Anyway, here's what I did (and it worked): I shortened the rods only at the end that contacts the cams at the lower end of the hammer. 1. Remove the buttstock (this is simple but you need a long ratchet extension to reach the bolt inside with your 13mm (? 12mm? 13, I think) socket). To do this, carefully remove the factory rubber butt-pad with a regular Philips screwdriver through the two small holes in the pad. Remove the stock-retaining bolt -- it can be very tight. Then VERY CAREFULLY remove the side plates with the correct hollow-ground flathead screwdriver, and keep straight which screw comes out of which hole, as they are all indexed. Once the side plates and bolt are removed, VERY CAREFULLY remove the screw in the trigger guard tang using the same correct hollow-ground flathead screwdriver. The butt stock now comes off of the receiver easily. 2. You now can operate the gun and watch what's going on. Do it. Notice in particular the gap between the inside wall of the receiver and the faces of the hammers after you pull the trigger (twice). You are going to want to shorten the rods to the point where the hammers, after firing, are ALMOST BUT NOT ACTUALLY touching that inside wall of the receiver. If your cocking rods are already at this length, there's nothing more to be done and just put it all back together, hopefully after installing Shotgun Boogie's springs. 3. Due to the position of the camming surfaces, VERY TINY differences in cocking rod length are greatly multiplied at the tops of the hammers -- in other words, it will be very easy to screw up and shorten the rods too much, to the point where the grooves in the hammers will not get caught by the sears if you are not careful. 4. Initially I thought I would proceed in to shorten the rods one mil (0.001") at a time. That was a fool's errand. I decided that it would be sufficient to proceed in five mil steps. 5. Remove the cocking rods, keeping straight which is the left and which is the right side rod. Also make sure your cocking "wedge" and return spring/plunger and retaining pin holding those parts into the front end of the water table are kept apart and identified as left and right side. To do this, you just push out those retaining pins from inside to out -- they will protrude outwardly just a bit -- and just pull them out with tiny pliers. 6. Before actually trimming the rods, I first measured them with my electronic caliper and wrote down the length -- they were identical. I then made dummy rods from 3/16" round stock of EXACTLY the same length (pick up a 4' section at Home Depot for $5), testing the dummy rods (without the return spring/plunger) by reassembling the barrels to the receiver, making sure that everything appeared to work the same way with the dummy rods installed. You are going to be disassembling and then reassembling all of these parts over and over again -- just get used to it. 7. I again disassembled the barrels and removed my dummy cocking rods. And then I used my WORKSHARP Knife and Tool Sharpener -- a belt grinder -- with the red belt (P220 Medium ceramic oxide) to start shortening ONE dummy rod. I kept the face of the rod square by rotating it on its axis while grinding, and then just slightly beveled the sharp edge each incremental 0.005" step. I got the hang of how long and how much pressure to use pretty quickly. And it didn't matter if I screwed it up because I was working on a dummy rod. 8. After each shortening grind, I reassembled the whole thing with the shortened dummy rod and operated the action to see the effect of what I had just done. With each step of the process, the hammer (after firing) got closer and closer to the inside wall of the receiver. I would then disassemble and repeat the process. 9. When I was happy with the rod length on the left side, I tried that same dummy rod on the right side and -- lo and behold -- it was also where I wanted it to be on the right side. I had removed 35 mils from the starting point by then: 7 increments, 7 times disassembling and reassembling everything. I got pretty good and fast at that disassembly/reassembly. (The reason I had to do so much shortening is that on my first attempt at this, I didn't use the "dummy rod" approach and in fact shortened my original cocking rods too much. CZ-USA graciously sent me a replacement pair, but did not tell me that they were oversized in length and needed fitting by shortening -- every gun's cocking rods are hand-fitted by appropriate shortening during assembly at the factory.) 10. I then ground both REAL cocking rods to the desired length. I got them within a mil of my target length. 11. I reassembled everything and tested the gun's operation again, and loved what I saw. Since then I've proved up the whole thing at the range many times -- I can open, shuck, and close the gun using only my right hand. Pretty awesome result. I had previously chamfered the chamber mouths using a cone-shaped grinding pin on my Dremel tool, as well as removing the upper "ears" of the ejector. That's a simple job, relatively speaking. I've re-read this a couple of times and I think I've included all of the steps that I did but since I wasn't writing it down at the time, I cannot be 100% certain. I am as sure as I can be, though. I'll also candidly say that I've handled a Sharp-Tail that received Longhunter's attention and it is even better than mine, to be honest, even if only by a smidgen. He must have some secret step that I've not been able to figure out, or use even lighter or even shorter mainsprings. I tried even lighter springs but got too many light primer strikes to be usable. DISCLAIMER (AND I MEAN IT): YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 2 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said: Your children will be grandparents before it is easy to break open if all you do is use it. It needs work. Ken Griner is said to do great work. Longhunter used to work on them but I don't know if he does his magic on these anymore. Shotgun Boogie sells his lightened spring set for it. If you want to do the work yourself, you can chamfer the chamber mouths, trim off the extractor's ears, and polish all moving parts (including the cocking rods and the extractor shaft and the tunnels those parts move within with a Dremel tool. Longhunter stated the following on January 12th on another thread: "I stopped selling and working on shotguns, black powder revolvers and 1911's as of last April." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 PM Double Diamond, he’s slicked up a few of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Store it cocked, until you get the tune-up. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Ridge Regulator Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 I have 2. One that longhunter did and one that I did. First off buy a spring kit for the hammers which will lighten the action a LOT. Disassemble the entire action ( pretty easy to do )and polish the cocking rods and the channels they run in( mine were very rough and dragged bad ). Deburr the slots that the triggers and hammers ride in because they had burrs on my gun. Make sure there is no wood dragging between stock and moving parts. On my gun the extractor rod had to be polished because it dragged so bad with the retaining pin removed it wouldn’t fall out of the barrel even when shaken. Clean up any other little rough spots you find and apply a little lube before you reassemble and you’re gonna love that gun. The hammer springs really make a huge difference the ones shotgun boogie sells are perfect. This really is a great gun and pretty easy to get shooting well. Have fun with it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 5 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Store it cocked, until you get the tune-up. I store it cocked even after the work I did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 5 hours ago, Oak Ridge Regulator said: I have 2. One that longhunter did and one that I did. First off buy a spring kit for the hammers which will lighten the action a LOT. Disassemble the entire action ( pretty easy to do )and polish the cocking rods and the channels they run in( mine were very rough and dragged bad ). Deburr the slots that the triggers and hammers ride in because they had burrs on my gun. Make sure there is no wood dragging between stock and moving parts. On my gun the extractor rod had to be polished because it dragged so bad with the retaining pin removed it wouldn’t fall out of the barrel even when shaken. Clean up any other little rough spots you find and apply a little lube before you reassemble and you’re gonna love that gun. The hammer springs really make a huge difference the ones shotgun boogie sells are perfect. This really is a great gun and pretty easy to get shooting well. Have fun with it How to access the insides, removable side plates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 8 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said: How to access the insides, removable side plates? MD -- re-read Step 1 of my step-by-step above. They are false side plates. So, both the side plates AND the buttstock must be removed to gain access to the action. Edited January 21 by Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Ridge Regulator Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Remove the two screws from both side plates, remove the trigger guard screw and trigger guard, remove the buttplate and the nut that fastens the stock in place ( you will need and extension on your socket,it’s a ways down in the stock ) then gently slide the stock backwards off the action. You can then lift the side plates off the action if they dident drop off before, sometimes they stick to the action 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 10 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said: How to access the insides, removable side plates? Screwdriver 2 screws on each side. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 The trigger guard is not removable from the action -- it is part of the action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Nichols Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I have the hammered version which, theoretically, should fall open since there are no cocking rods etc. Practically had to break it open over my knee when I first got it. The main culprit? The extractor. The main extractor rod and the guid rod were about 10° out of parallel. The main shaft and channel were horribly rough and tight. Cleaned up those issues and gun falls open now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rough 'N Ready Rob Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 38 minutes ago, Augustus Nichols said: I have the hammered version which, theoretically, should fall open since there are no cocking rods etc. Practically had to break it open over my knee when I first got it. The main culprit? The extractor. The main extractor rod and the guid rod were about 10° out of parallel. The main shaft and channel were horribly rough and tight. Cleaned up those issues and gun falls open now What Augustus said, put some Flitz on the moving part that touch, open and close, it helps a lot. Mine too falls open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 The hammered version is a whole different ball of wax, obviously, and much easier to fix the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Nichols Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 13 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said: The hammered version is a whole different ball of wax, obviously, and much easier to fix the issue. That was kind of my point. I DONT have all the extra mechanical resistance of the rods, springs etc and mine still wouldn't open. Mostly, because of the extractor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 6 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said: MD -- re-read Step 1 of my step-by-step above. They are false side plates. So, both the side plates AND the buttstock must be removed to gain access to the action. Gotcha… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Ridge Regulator Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 4 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said: The trigger guard is not removable from the action -- it is part of the action. Not on the two I have, once you remove the screw into the stock you turn the trigger guard to the left and it unscrews from the action frame 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 2 hours ago, Oak Ridge Regulator said: Not on the two I have, once you remove the screw into the stock you turn the trigger guard to the left and it unscrews from the action frame Hmmm. Of course you are correct. In any event, there's no real reason to take it off to see and work on the action. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 2 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said: Hmmm. Of course you are correct. In any event, there's no real reason to take it off to see and work on the action. I remove the spring assembly, compress the spring (with a fork?) drive out the retention pin on the left end, replace spring with a lighter spring (on order), compress and reinstall pin. Rinse and repeat on the other spring assemble? Look for rough edges while I’m in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Carefully pry the front end of each hammer spring pin from its seat in the hammer. Remove each spring/pin assembly. There's no need to remove the rear spring support bracket from the action. Securely grab the flange at the front of the assembly; remove the threaded cylindrical nut from the rear of the pin. (It may be quite difficult to remove the first time.) Swap out the original hammer spring for the new lighter one. All of the removal and reinstallation of that threaded cylindrical nut is easier if you take off the spring tension. I did it by drilling a hole in a small block of hardwood, large enough for the cylindrical nut to pass through, but small enough so that the rear spring collar does not. By putting the spring assembly rear end up in the vise, I can easily compress the spring and hold it in that position while I spin off the nut. I hope that helps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 You can get the springs here. https://sbgwllc.com/product-category/shotgun/cz-sharp-tail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 On 1/20/2024 at 12:16 PM, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said: ...1. Remove the buttstock (this is simple but you need a long ratchet extension to reach the bolt inside with your 13mm (? 12mm? 13, I think) socket). To do this, carefully remove the factory rubber butt-pad with a regular Philips screwdriver through the two small holes in the pad. Remove the stock-retaining bolt -- it can be very tight. Then VERY CAREFULLY remove the side plates with the correct hollow-ground flathead screwdriver, and keep straight which screw comes out of which hole, as they are all indexed. Once the side plates and bolt are removed, VERY CAREFULLY remove the screw in the trigger guard tang using the same correct hollow-ground flathead screwdriver. The butt stock now comes off of the receiver easily.... Today is the day I try not to ruin a brand new SxS. Butt-pad removed. 13mm socket removed the "Buttstock bolt". Removed the two bolts that held the left side plate and removed the left side plate. Right side plate I was only able to remove one of the two screws. Now I'm researching manual impact drivers that accept 1/4" bits while the WD-40 soaks the stubborn bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Graybeard Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Brownells has a Lisle impact driver for gunsmithing. It takes the 1\4 inch bits. Get the set...it comes with some hardened tips 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) One of the best looking guns out there. I wouldn't hesitate to hang one over the fireplace. I spent a lifetime one week working on one of them before I got it to the point that it was satisfactory to use in this game, but I've never seen any of them that would open the way I want them too... and that goes for some guns tuned by some of the best know Cowboy Smiths. JMO. The way they are built there is just not much mechanical advantage involved when opening the gun, so they will never be what I would call easy to open. The cocking rods were indeed one place that needed work. I ended up having to machine new ones because the originals melted on the spot when I applied a little heat. They were some kind of POT METAL! Making the new cocking rods out of some REAL metal and adjusting them did help. JMNSHO Edited February 12 by Snakebite 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 hour ago, Matthew Duncan said: Today is the day I try not to ruin a brand new SxS. Butt-pad removed. 13mm socket removed the "Buttstock bolt". Removed the two bolts that held the left side plate and removed the left side plate. Right side plate I was only able to remove one of the two screws. Now I'm researching manual impact drivers that accept 1/4" bits while the WD-40 soaks the stubborn bolt. WD-40 is not a penetrating oil; it is a corrosion inhibitor that works by eliminating water molecules (though kerosene works better). Soaking with PB Blaster, KROIL, etc. is recommended before trying to get that last screw out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, Matthew Duncan said: Today is the day I try not to ruin a brand new SxS. Butt-pad removed. 13mm socket removed the "Buttstock bolt". Removed the two bolts that held the left side plate and removed the left side plate. Right side plate I was only able to remove one of the two screws. Now I'm researching manual impact drivers that accept 1/4" bits while the WD-40 soaks the stubborn bolt. The way I get screw out that have been installed by a Gorilla is to use my Drill Press. Pad the item so it won't get scratched up. Put a bit that fits the screw into the chuck of the drill press. Get the screw aligned and level (square) with the bit. This part might take two people. Hold the item (gun) while applying pressure to the bit using the drill press lever. Then turn the chuck BY HAND ONLY. DO NOT TURN ON THE DRILL MOTOR. The flywheel effect of turning the chuck will usually loosen the screw. Edited February 3 by Snakebite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 Impact driver and Kroil ordered. I’ll let y’all know how this all works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawnee Hills Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) This is a great video showing how to remove stuck screws. Notice how he only 'bumps' the chuck by hand on the drill press. I haven't found Kroil to be the magic bullet that some claim but it is the best penetrating oil out there. Also, be careful with the impact driver. A not fully engaged bit or too hard of a whack can destroy a screwhead. Cinnabar Video Edited February 3 by Shawnee Hills 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee River Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 My side plate screws were tight as ______(fill in the blank). I buggered them up, but contacted CZ via email and they sent me free replacements. If you call their customer service they will give you the email. It’s only a single busy guy doing the CZ shotgun parts, but he will come through in due time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 31 minutes ago, Tennessee River said: My side plate screws were tight as ______(fill in the blank). I buggered them up, but contacted CZ via email and they sent me free replacements. If you call their customer service they will give you the email. It’s only a single busy guy doing the CZ shotgun parts, but he will come through in due time. That’s good to know. Thanks for posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 Well the forth stubborn side plate screw must have felt threaten by the Kroil and Impact that's being delivered tomorrow. It decided to cooperate and I was able to removed it. Here's the replacement parts I received. 1 & 2 are the "Hammer Springs". 3 & 4 "Sear-selector springs". 5 is "Top Lever Spring". 6 is "Top Lever Spring Plunger". Part names were derived from a CZ online parts list. #1 Question (HELP). Evidently the "Top Lever Spring" is buried someone within because I can't see it. How do I get to it to replace it? I'd rather not start an overall disassembly risking partts flying across the room only to discover there was a correct method of doing it. #2 Question, "Sear-selector springs". Replacing would contribute to making the action easier to open or should I just stay with the stock springs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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