WTC: Reengagement of Bonus Flier

[Fretless]

2 hours ago, Stump Water said:

 

You're not taking into account the "bonus".

 

Shooter 1 hits the bird.  Freeze time.  Score = time minus five seconds.

 

Shooter 2 misses the bird. Freeze time.  Score = time plus five seconds.

 

Assuming "time", up to pulling the trigger on the bird, is the same for both shooters, right now shooter 1's time is ten seconds less than shooter 2.  So missing the bird was a ten second miss.

 

Now shooter 2 can "make up" PART of the ten second miss by putting another round down range.  5 seconds is subtracted and the time to take the extra shot is added. But there is no way to "make up" the minus 5 seconds that he didn't get because he missed the bird. 

 

I see what you are doing now.  Your math works out the same, but that running timeline does not correlate to the rules as written.  The rules expect you to make up the shot, and only penalize you at the end if you failed to do so.  

For me, an extra shotgun shot adds about 1.5 seconds, maybe a little less.  Whether that means missing a bonus like this would cost me 6.5 or 1.5 seconds is a philosophical discussion.  I personally think you can have a bonus on one side of a coin without having a penalty on the other.  Missing a bonus is not an extra penalty.  It's just getting the time I earned.  Others disagree with that.  Ultimately, the clock doesn't care about our feelings.

[Stump Water]

47 minutes ago, Fretless said:

Missing a bonus is not an extra penalty.

 

Yes it is... in this case.

 

You pull the trigger on that bird and miss, you just got a miss and you didn't get the minus 5 second bonus.  Ergo, it is a ten second target. 

 

I don't give a rat's backside what happens after you pull the trigger.  You miss that bird and you just got ten seconds. 

 

In this case you get to "make up" part of the ten seconds, but not that minus 5 seconds.  

 

Of course, if everyone at the match misses the bird, then it's a non-issue.

 

If you can't understand what I'm saying... carry on with your bonus targets.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

59 minutes ago, Fretless said:

I see what you are doing now.  Your math works out the same, but that running timeline does not correlate to the rules as written.  The rules expect you to make up the shot, and only penalize you at the end if you failed to do so.  

For me, an extra shotgun shot adds about 1.5 seconds, maybe a little less.  Whether that means missing a bonus like this would cost me 6.5 or 1.5 seconds is a philosophical discussion.  I personally think you can have a bonus on one side of a coin without having a penalty on the other.  Missing a bonus is not an extra penalty.  It's just getting the time I earned.  Others disagree with that.  Ultimately, the clock doesn't care about our feelings.

You're leaving out the following info:

 

What you are saying is how most places do it, but not at this match. This bonus was not just a bonus and did have a miss available for it. It actually was scored as Stump Water explained it. I think this is why many were confused. 

 

This club...for god unknown reasons scores things...weirdly...

 

This shooter lost out on the "Bonus" and "saved" 5 seconds by throwing a round down range.

 

Total difference in time between him and someone that hit the flyer...no "makeup" SG needed is 5 seconds.

 

Folks, this is a great example of how not to write a Stage.

 

Phantom

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

"Bonuses with makeups or misses are stupid."   If a match director wants to put a bonus in a stage, then make it worth engaging, like maybe 10 or 15 seconds.

The shooter should have to #1: Reload a round in whatever firearm has to be used to engage the bonus target.  #2: Make it a target that will help the shooter get a better time for that stage.  #3: Make it a target that most experienced shooters at the match could possibly hit.

Or, otherwise, don't put it into the match.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

There has been one argument for "bonus targets", that has been made to me over the years...since generally the "bonus" target is something out of the ordinary (read this as a bit more...difficult).

 

It allows the average shooter to still have a "clean" match.

 

Yes...it is silly.

 

Phantom

 

PS: And so is having a "special" target carry more value than any other target.

 

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Personally,  I think Bonuses belong on 'Wheel of Fortune',  not in a SASS/CAS match.

 

And certain type 'bonus' activities can be designed to enhance someones score or

penalize someones score....i.e.... throwing a hatchet or knife.   Stick it in the stump for 5 second bonus.

Bounce off the stump, no bonus.

 

..........Widder

 

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

"Bonuses with makeups or misses are stupid."   If a match director wants to put a bonus in a stage, then make it worth engaging, like maybe 10 or 15 seconds.

The shooter should have to #1: Reload a round in whatever firearm has to be used to engage the bonus target.  #2: Make it a target that will help the shooter get a better time for that stage.  #3: Make it a target that most experienced shooters at the match could possibly hit.

Or, otherwise, don't put it into the match.

I’ve done a match where you  reload pistol with one round. Place round on main match rifle target for 10 second bonus, pistol target for 5 second bonus. A miss is no penalty other than time spent, which everyone has to do. Risk-reward! 
I'm probably one of the few that kinda likes pistol reloads. Which I think is an “authentic” thing! 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

4 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I'm probably one of the few that kinda likes pistol reloads. Which I think is an “authentic” thing! 

That's all fine...but why make it a "Bonus" target...ya know, there's no such thing...right?

 

Phantom

[Hoss]

10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

That's all fine...but why make it a "Bonus" target...ya know, there's no such thing...right?

 

Phantom

The risk/reward of selecting pistol target vs rifle target. (Really not that much of a challenge to hit the rifle target, but about 1/2 chose the pistol target). I haven’t done it in a while. Maybe next match I write! 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 minutes ago, Hoss said:

The risk/reward of selecting pistol target vs rifle target. (Really not that much of a challenge to hit the rifle target, but about 1/2 chose the pistol target). I haven’t done it in a while. Maybe next match I write! 

But why make it a "Bonus"? Why not just tell 'em what to do and leave it at that?

 

"Bonus" targets can also lead to scoring mistakes.

 

Phantom

[Captain Bill Burt]

I’m not a fan of bonus targets either. As others have said, once the first person gets it, it’s no longer a bonus, usually.

 

I shot a match recently where every stage offered two potential bonuses. Shooters had the option of loading a round into their rifle on the clock and engaging a target for a five second bonus, which I did on every stage. They also had the option of loading an extra round in a pistol and engaging a target for a five second bonus, which I declined to do.

 

Not many shooters went for the pistol bonus and to my knowledge nobody who did benefited from it, so that was a ‘reverse bonus’ in my view.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Hey Capt BB.

By the way..... Congratulations from last Saturday.

 

Anyhow, about those bonuses.   If ya think about it, it takes 2-3 seconds for a rifle reload for some folks.

and that's kinda quick.   So basically, it becomes a 2 second bonus when everything is over.

 

And fin ya incurre a slight bobble or rifle glitch..... OOPS!

AND..... you mentioned that the target had to be 'engaged'.   Does that mean it had to be shot at for the bonus,

or hit for the bonus?

 

..........Widder

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

27 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Hey Capt BB.

By the way..... Congratulations from last Saturday.

 

Anyhow, about those bonuses.   If ya think about it, it takes 2-3 seconds for a rifle reload for some folks.

and that's kinda quick.   So basically, it becomes a 2 second bonus when everything is over.

 

And fin ya incurre a slight bobble or rifle glitch..... OOPS!

AND..... you mentioned that the target had to be 'engaged'.   Does that mean it had to be shot at for the bonus,

or hit for the bonus?

 

..........Widder

 

Thanks!  It was a fun match.

 

You had to hit the target.  I figure I picked up about 2 seconds per reload.

[Cypress Sun]

Large match bonus? If you absolutely have to...make the bonus a raffle ticket for some prize to be awarded by luck of the draw. In this instance, it's 4+ shotgun...miss the bonus = no ticket but doesn't affect times.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

23 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

Large match bonus? If you absolutely have to...make the bonus a raffle ticket for some prize to be awarded by luck of the draw. In this instance, it's 4+ shotgun...miss the bonus + no ticket but doesn't affect times.

That's how I write t in bonuses. 

 

Phantom

[Fretless]

9 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

Large match bonus? If you absolutely have to...make the bonus a raffle ticket for some prize to be awarded by luck of the draw. In this instance, it's 4+ shotgun...miss the bonus + no ticket but doesn't affect times.

I shot a match like that in Jacksonville, FL last year.  It was Thanksgiving weekend.  There were two bonuses available.  For each one you hit, you got an extra target for the turkey shoot.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

On 11/28/2023 at 9:32 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But why make it a "Bonus"? Why not just tell 'em what to do and leave it at that?

 

"Bonus" targets can also lead to scoring mistakes.

 

Phantom

Bonus is just a handy word. You could call it "extra special target you normally would not have to engage to have time taken off your score" but that takes up a little too much space. ; )    BTW, I like the raffle ticket or some other "award" for the bonus.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Bonus is just a handy word. You could call it "extra special target you normally would not have to engage to have time taken off your score" but that takes up a little too much space. ; )    BTW, I like the raffle ticket or some other "award" for the bonus.

It's just the concept that somehow this Extra Special Target is different than any other. It's not. It just adjusts your score differently (-5 vs +5). What's more, the scoring of an EST often gets screwed up. Folks often forget to "score" the EST.

 

I learned about the raffle ticket methodology from CVR in CA. It's so much more fun having a EST that won't effect the shooter's score. Folks that don't care about their time so much can take extra time to try and get the EST and therefore get their raffle ticket...bottom line, it makes those EST's much more fun!

 

And in the end...isn't this whole game about that? Fun?

 

Phantom

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It's just the concept that somehow this Extra Special Target is different than any other. It's not. It just adjusts your score differently (-5 vs +5). What's more, the scoring of an EST often gets screwed up. Folks often forget to "score" the EST.

 

I learned about the raffle ticket methodology from CVR in CA. It's so much more fun having a EST that won't effect the shooter's score. Folks that don't care about their time so much can take extra time to try and get the EST and therefore get their raffle ticket...bottom line, it makes those EST's much more fun!

 

And in the end...isn't this whole game about that? Fun?

 

Phantom

What do you mean "game"? This is a sport! Lol (steam rolling from Phantom's ears...) I agree on the raffle or whatever you choose to award that does not affect times/scores. "Bonus" just catches your attention though; almost as much as "free". Haha

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

On 11/29/2023 at 6:19 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I’m not a fan of bonus targets either. As others have said, once the first person gets it, it’s no longer a bonus, usually.

 

I shot a match recently where every stage offered two potential bonuses. Shooters had the option of loading a round into their rifle on the clock and engaging a target for a five second bonus, which I did on every stage. They also had the option of loading an extra round in a pistol and engaging a target for a five second bonus, which I declined to do.

 

Not many shooters went for the pistol bonus and to my knowledge nobody who did benefited from it, so that was a ‘reverse bonus’ in my view.

I put an optional pistol reload in a Work Shirkers match. I made it a 10 second Bonus and almost everyone tried it. 

 

Randy

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

12 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

What do you mean "game"? This is a sport! Lol (steam rolling from Phantom's ears...) I agree on the raffle or whatever you choose to award that does not affect times/scores. "Bonus" just catches your attention though; almost as much as "free". Haha

Hearing aids stop the steam from coming out my ears...it now comes out my nose.

 

And as I always told the kids, nothing is Free...nothing is Fair.

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

26 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And as I always told the kids, nothing is Free...nothing is Fair.

 

Abso frickin lutely!  

[Hoss]

I’ve never noticed scoring the bonus to be that much of an issue. And it never bothers me to have a “bonus” target. Just shoot it.  Don’t worry about what it’s called. If you hit it you are in good shape. If you miss it then yes, you likely gave up the 5 seconds, just like if you missed a regular target. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

I’ve never noticed scoring the bonus to be that much of an issue. And it never bothers me to have a “bonus” target. Just shoot it.  Don’t worry about what it’s called. If you hit it you are in good shape. If you miss it then yes, you likely gave up the 5 seconds, just like if you missed a regular target. 

 

But Hoss, that type scoring just doesn't penalize your score 5 seconds for the miss, it now puts

a 10 second time ADVANTAGE difference between the misser and the hitter.

 

Thats one of the reasons why these type bonuses aren't used much.

 

..........Widder

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I’ve never noticed scoring the bonus to be that much of an issue. And it never bothers me to have a “bonus” target. Just shoot it.  Don’t worry about what it’s called. If you hit it you are in good shape. If you miss it then yes, you likely gave up the 5 seconds, just like if you missed a regular target. 

So you do agree that it's been a scoring issue...and if you think that it's nothing to worry about..."just like if you missed a regular target", then why have it at all?

 

So to recap:

 

1. It's just another target
2. Has been an issue scoring (how much of an issue might be up for debate...but it's still an issue)

 

Seems to me that having a "bonus" targets is silly.

 

Phantom

[Hoss]

3 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

But Hoss, that type scoring just doesn't penalize your score 5 seconds for the miss, it now puts

a 10 second time ADVANTAGE difference between the misser and the hitter.

 

Thats one of the reasons why these type bonuses aren't used much.

 

..........Widder

 

I understand what you are saying, but my point is if you hit the target, which is the whole idea, you are not penalized at all.  
granted, I don’t do a lot of bonus targets. But when I do I try to make it a more challenging target, (maybe a smaller, more distant target) if shooter misses, no penalty and still has a “clean” match. As you know,  Many shooters strive for a clean match, so this does not hurt them. At least that’s my thinking. 
(Allthough in reality they did have a miss, but they still get their clean match pin) 

I know one guy, shoots a lot, hard club worker, but he is not fast. Shooting clean is his goal. I’ve literally seen him pack up and leave mid-match over a P or a miss! 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

48 minutes ago, Hoss said:

 Many shooters strive for a clean match, so this does not hurt them.

Do you honestly think that they think that they shot clean when they miss the "bonus"? I'll betcha they don't.

49 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I know one guy, shoots a lot, hard club worker, but he is not fast. Shooting clean is his goal. I’ve literally seen him pack up and leave mid-match over a P or a miss!

I would never enjoy shooting with this person...how selfish. And I certainly wouldn't design a stage with a 'Bonus" just to appease him/her/them/they...

 

Phantom

[Hoss]

3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Do you honestly think that they think that they shot clean when they miss the "bonus"? I'll betcha they don't.

I would never enjoy shooting with this person...how selfish. And I certainly wouldn't design a stage with a 'Bonus" just to appease him/her/them/they...

 

Phantom

I know it’s not really a “clean” match. You know it’s not a clean match. But many will wear the pin with pride! 
for me, I have one clean match pin I’m proud of. My first Texas State match. (At Plum Creek, you may have been MD?) I’d been shooting less than a year. I wanted to shoot it clean. My last stage was “Hells Bells”. (3 gas cylinders with bottoms cut off, tall but only 8” or so wide). I was shakin like a dog passing a peach pit, but shot it clean. That’s the only clean match pin I have on my hat. The rest are in my cart, in my range box, whatever! 
 

and I’d bet a dollar you’ve shot with the guy I’m referring to! 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

I know it’s not really a “clean” match. You know it’s not a clean match. But many will wear the pin with pride! 
for me, I have one clean match pin I’m proud of. My first Texas State match. (At Plum Creek, you may have been MD?) I’d been shooting less than a year. I wanted to shoot it clean. My last stage was “Hells Bells”. (3 gas cylinders with bottoms cut off, tall but only 8” or so wide). I was shakin like a dog passing a peach pit, but shot it clean. That’s the only clean match pin I have on my hat. The rest are in my cart, in my range box, whatever! 
 

and I’d bet a dollar you’ve shot with the guy I’m referring to! 

Yeah...sorry about Hell's Bells...

 

I think I know...thank god he doesn't usually shoot with me. Nice guy and all...I just have a few troubles with his idiosyncrasies.

 

Phantom

[Hoss]

6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah...sorry about Hell's Bells...

 

I think I know...thank god he doesn't usually shoot with me. Nice guy and all...I just have a few troubles with his idiosyncrasies.

 

Phantom

I kinda miss “Hells Bells”  maybe they are still around and I’ll talk Bo into letting me write a match, I’ll put them up and make them a bonus target!!!!!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

19 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I kinda miss “Hells Bells”  maybe they are still around and I’ll talk Bo into letting me write a match, I’ll put them up and make them a bonus target!!!!!

Yer killin' me...

 

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

...“Hells Bells”. (3 gas cylinders with bottoms cut off, tall but only 8” or so wide)...

Cut at different lengths, they make different musical notes... I've always tried to make them into a tune.  But, I'm not very musically inclined...