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5 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Meaningless to whom?  I believe this is one of the most family friendly shooting sports in existence.  Why?  Far and away the number one reason has to be the people in SASS.  But I believe 2nd place goes to the matches themselves.  The entire family, no matter how skilled, can have fun at our matches.  My last belief is this is Creeker's point.  He's not saying HE feels like John Force etc.  He's saying shooters of lower abilities get to have more fun because the match itself is fun instead of being punishing.  Look at Still Hand Bill's post.  Not one single clean shooter for an entire match? How is that fun? As is said time and time again, we're in the entertainment business. If matches cease to be entertaining they cease to exist.    

  Do people walk away because they can't shoot a clean stage in 16 seconds?  Obviously not or most wouldn't be here.  I didn't shoot a clean match until my 8th year.   Yet I still came back.  Do you really think a 16" or larger  target at 7 yrds is punishing?   Would sass die if they actually said you couldn't have targets closer?   

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After 20 years of shooting this game I'd be lying if I said my opinion on this topic hasn't changed over time. I remember the first time I set a pistol target at 7 yards at the club that I started at.

Matches are "generally" considered more fun when the targets are of generous size and placed closer to the firing line.   Additionally, the distances referenced from the handbooks are solely

At what point in SASS history do you believe speed was unimportant? The game was began by speed shooters that simply had the thought that a Cowboy IPSC version would be fun.   To the be

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1 hour ago, evil dogooder said:

A few mistakes in that belief.  Your comparing apples to oranges.   

  So your 16 second stage makes you feel like john force?   Lead despencer?  Except. What would he shoot the stage in?  

 

Really makes that 16 seem slow doesnt it.   

 

You can keep your illusions of grandeur all you want but it still doesnt make you John Force.

 

I started like 10 or eleven years ago. Shooting 60 to 80 second stages.  A lot of the time coming in last place. Slowly I got better through putting in effort. Never did I try to cheapen the efforts of others by wanting an easy way.   Back then seeing someone shoot a 16 was a huge deal.  Something to be talked about for months. Now pretty much any match somebody will shoot one or below. It's that common.

   It's all about integrity.    Set up a stand and deliver stage at 3 yards one 6' x 6' target.   Sure you can shoot it under 16. Most will under 20. If all your doing is looking to tell people you shot a 16 sec stage. There you go. You got it. But really what do you have?  Your still not going to feel like lead despencer because he will do it probably under 10.  If all your doing is chasing a number it's a pretty hollow victory. 

 

 Numbers are just numbers.   Shooting a stage with with 80 ft of movement under 20 with targets at 7 yards is an achievement.   Shooting a 16 with targets at 3 is meaningless. 

I think you're seriously missing the point he's trying to make. It's all about how you, the shooter, feels about your stage runs. If you usually shoot 30 secish stages and you come up on one that is a little easier, either because it's not that complicated or the targets are closer or whatever and you "burn it down" in a low 20 or high teen time, YOU feel good about running that fast. You feel like you've run a "big boy" time. Yes, if Lead Dispencer or (add name) ran it, they'd run a sub-10, but YOU did it, you broke your best time ever and that makes YOU feel good. If your accomplishments are not respected in your many years of competing and your endless hours of practice and your drastic drop in stage times since you started, then whoever doesn't respect that is a fool. But some don't have the resources or the time or the … to drop from 80-90 sec stages to regular sub-20 stages and when they finally bust a 20 sec stage, they are on cloud nine, even if the stage was "easy". Make sense? 

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2 hours ago, evil dogooder said:

A few mistakes in that belief.  Your comparing apples to oranges.   

  So your 16 second stage makes you feel like john force?   Lead despencer?  Except. What would he shoot the stage in?  

 

Really makes that 16 seem slow doesnt it.   

 

You can keep your illusions of grandeur all you want but it still doesnt make you John Force.

 

I started like 10 or eleven years ago. Shooting 60 to 80 second stages.  A lot of the time coming in last place. Slowly I got better through putting in effort. Never did I try to cheapen the efforts of others by wanting an easy way.   Back then seeing someone shoot a 16 was a huge deal.  Something to be talked about for months. Now pretty much any match somebody will shoot one or below. It's that common.

   It's all about integrity.    Set up a stand and deliver stage at 3 yards one 6' x 6' target.   Sure you can shoot it under 16. Most will under 20. If all your doing is looking to tell people you shot a 16 sec stage. There you go. You got it. But really what do you have?  Your still not going to feel like lead despencer because he will do it probably under 10.  If all your doing is chasing a number it's a pretty hollow victory. 

 

 Numbers are just numbers.   Shooting a stage with with 80 ft of movement under 20 with targets at 7 yards is an achievement.   Shooting a 16 with targets at 3 is meaningless. 

 

  Why are you trying to be anyone but creeker?  If creeker shoots the stage at his best, it doesn't matter if it's a 16, or a 60. Be proud of what you did.  If you get done with a stage and say,  "that is the best I could ever shoot it."   I am going to be cheering as loud as I can.  

And there we have a perfect example of a common attitude among some in SASS. 

 

'Not shooting it the way I think it should be shot and following the standards I believe are important, then what you're doing is 'meaningless' and so are your accomplishments.'

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1 hour ago, evil dogooder said:

  Do people walk away because they can't shoot a clean stage in 16 seconds?  Obviously not or most wouldn't be here.  I didn't shoot a clean match until my 8th year.   Yet I still came back.  Do you really think a 16" or larger  target at 7 yrds is punishing?   Would sass die if they actually said you couldn't have targets closer?   

Again, my way or the highway.  I didn't do it that way, and therefore YOU shouldn't do it that way either.


That's not what I consider fun and therefore YOU should't consider it fun either.

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3 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Meaningless to whom?  I believe this is one of the most family friendly shooting sports in existence.  Why?  Far and away the number one reason has to be the people in SASS.  But I believe 2nd place goes to the matches themselves.  The entire family, no matter how skilled, can have fun at our matches.  My last belief is this is Creeker's point.  He's not saying HE feels like John Force etc.  He's saying shooters of lower abilities get to have more fun because the match itself is fun instead of being punishing.  Look at Still Hand Bill's post.  Not one single clean shooter for an entire match? How is that fun? As is said time and time again, we're in the entertainment business. If matches cease to be entertaining they cease to exist.    

Your missing the point.   If your chasing a number,  its chasing an illusion.     20 years ago 30 seconds was fast.   10 years ago 20 seconds was fast.    Now if you want to to win you better be shooting faster than 16.     

 

 Compare apples to apples .   Bring the targets in close so you can shoot low times.  Just be honest with yourself.  Top shooters will still blow those times out of the water.  

    

Just to be clear I don't consider myself a top shooter.  Upper mid pack at best.  

 

  Why anyone wants to value thier times/ perfomance based on what someone else can do is beyond me.  Do the best you can personally do.  

 

 

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56 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

Your missing the point.   If your chasing a number,  its chasing an illusion.     20 years ago 30 seconds was fast.   10 years ago 20 seconds was fast.    Now if you want to to win you better be shooting faster than 16.     

 

 Compare apples to apples .   Bring the targets in close so you can shoot low times.  Just be honest with yourself.  Top shooters will still blow those times out of the water.  

    

Just to be clear I don't consider myself a top shooter.  Upper mid pack at best.  

 

  Why anyone wants to value thier times/ perfomance based on what someone else can do is beyond me.  Do the best you can personally do.  

 

 

Yer still missin it. It's not how people feel about their time against a top level shooter. It's that they feel THEY have run a time such as "x, y, z shooter". What that top shooter may have done previously. Not specifically that stage. If we don't have "heroes" and I use that term loosely, we have nothing or no one to "look up" to, and I use that loosely as well. I don't look up to most top shooters, as I don't know them. I respect their accomplished shooting, as I know it takes, not only talent and good equipment, but MUCH practice and dedication; but I don't know anything other than their numbers. If I can fly through a stage and think "man, I blew through that one like I saw Fast Eddie do" then I feel good about what I'VE done, has nothing to do with him or what he would have done on that stage. Yes, top shooters will blow me out of the water... on ANY stage, but if I burn one down, I feel good about ME, and reference what I've done to what I've seen them do. Just a reference, a measuring stick, if you will. I have no delusions.

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1 hour ago, evil dogooder said:

Your missing the point.   If your chasing a number,  its chasing an illusion.     20 years ago 30 seconds was fast.   10 years ago 20 seconds was fast.    Now if you want to to win you better be shooting faster than 16.     

 

 Compare apples to apples .   Bring the targets in close so you can shoot low times.  Just be honest with yourself.  Top shooters will still blow those times out of the water.  

    

Just to be clear I don't consider myself a top shooter.  Upper mid pack at best.  

 

  Why anyone wants to value thier times/ perfomance based on what someone else can do is beyond me.  Do the best you can personally do.  

 

 

 

 

I believe the highlighted text above shows you're missing the point.  Creeker and I feel the same way about matches so I'm going to include him in this opinion.  Neither one of us are chasing numbers, we're chasing fun.  And more important than US chasing fun is our customers chasing fun.  When we put on matches we want the maximum number of people to have the maximum amount of fun.  

 

Yes, top shooters will always win.  That was established years ago.  That's also not the point.  Targets don't get set up to cater to top shooters.  Or at least they shouldn't be.  I'll repeat myself here, targets should be set up so the maximum number of people can have the maximum amount of fun. 

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After 20 years of shooting this game I'd be lying if I said my opinion on this topic hasn't changed over time. I remember the first time I set a pistol target at 7 yards at the club that I started at. I thought that some of the "old guard" were gonna kill me LOL......as in it was too close. But a 125gr bullet doing 800 fps. was ultra "gamey" at that time as well. I know I certainly pushed the "big and close" agenda. Bought bigger steel, 7 yards turned into 5. Everyone started judging the quality of a match by clean shooter percentages. I think there is a sweet spot somewhere in there. Bordertown is always used as an example. (yup I'm going this year) but I also don't think it should be the measuring stick for success. Bordertown is Bordertown, just like Winter Range is Winter Range. On the flip side EOT sold out their 500 shooter limit in 56 minutes this year and over half the shooters signed up have never been to the range and have no idea what kind of match it's going to be , so go figure. The truth is sometimes I feel like burning down 12 second stages and sometimes I feel like shooting a 25 second stage and I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where I can get both. 

 

I applaud ANYONE that try's to produce a match in this day and age. I don't care if it's your local monthly or the World Championship. The good and the bad are usually mixed and you need to have pretty tough skin nowadays to do so as expectations to provide that value for your entertainment dollar have never been higher. I think we could all do a lot by just giving each other a little grace from time to time. I really don't think there's a right or wrong answer here. The longer I'm around the more I realize that it is a big tent, and there's room for everyone. Cause at the end of the day there isn't anyone getting rich here. Shoot what's in front of you (or don't) and enjoy the ones around you cause one day you'll look up and some of them will be missing. Just my honest ramblings. 

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It may seem counterintuitive, but the closer the targets, and the faster the stages, the more mistakes become magnified.  Set up a stage that a really fast shooter can run in 20 seconds, and a miss has less impact than a stage that the same shooter can run in 15 seconds.  Yeah, it's 5 seconds either way, but in the first instance, it's a 25% penalty, but in the second, it's 33.3%.  Yeah it's easier to stay clean if they're big and close, but the penalty for not staying clean is now higher.  The same is true for transitions, the faster the stage, the bigger a component transitions become. 

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10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It may seem counterintuitive, but the closer the targets, and the faster the stages, the more mistakes become magnified.  Set up a stage that a really fast shooter can run in 20 seconds, and a miss has less impact than a stage that the same shooter can run in 15 seconds.  Yeah, it's 5 seconds either way, but in the first instance, it's a 25% penalty, but in the second, it's 33.3%.  Yeah it's easier to stay clean if they're big and close, but the penalty for not staying clean is now higher.  The same is true for transitions, the faster the stage, the bigger a component transitions become. 

I have preached the above for years.

As the length of a stage increases - each individual component of the stage has less value.

 

And as the time it takes to aim increases - the less the penalty for missing applies.

 

Every shot taken has a time "penalty" applied to it.

That "penalty" includes:

The time required to acquire your firearm/ discard tour firearm (draw or pick up from a table and returning - if applicable) 

* The time to acquire a sight picture that is good enough (or believed good enough) for a hit on target 

* The time required to cycle/ manipulate your firearm.

 

These penalties exist apply whether or not the target is struck.

 

So let's consider the simplest of sequences - the 10 round rifle dump.

 

The best can do this under match conditions in 2 seconds.

Good shooters in 3 or 4

Average in 5 or 6.

 

This means the time penalty for each shot is 2 tenths of a second per shot to 6 tenths per shot (for a significant portion of our shooters).

And a miss is, of course, 5 seconds added to the above time. 

So any miss against a like paced shooter places me 5 seconds behind them.

 

Move that target from 12 paces to 50.  Not only will misses increase.

The time penalty for successful shots increases and does so significantly.

Up to 3 and 4x increases.

 

Meaning that just the shot component can now be 6 tenths of a second to 2 seconds per shot.

 

The time component has increased - the miss penalty did not. 

Meaning a miss now carries less penalty. 

Because I can still acquire, manipulate and aim in my original 3-4 tenths of a second and IF I miss - my entire penalty for that shot is still 5.4 seconds.

 

My missed shot cost 4 tenths of a second - their hit shot cost 1.2 seconds.

 

But my miss penalty is no longer 5 seconds - but 4.2 seconds.

 

Move the target to 100 yards and you lower the miss penalty yet again.

 

If it requires 3 seconds to aim and hit and I take 4 tenths to do the same and miss.

My miss only put me 2.4 seconds behind your hit on the same target.

 

Lets say someone hit 8 of 10 at 100 yards.

30 seconds worth of aiming and 10 seconds of penalties. 

40 seconds.

 

Someone else snapping off rounds at 4 tenths per shot and they miss 7 of 10.

4 seconds worth of aiming and 35 seconds worth of penalties.

39 seconds.

 

Hmm, the literal definition of missing fast enough to win.

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12 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I have preached the above for years.

As the length of a stage increases - each individual component of the stage has less value.

 

And as the time it takes to aim increases - the less the penalty for missing applies.

 

Every shot taken has a time "penalty" applied to it.

That "penalty" includes:

The time required to acquire your firearm/ discard tour firearm (draw or pick up from a table and returning - if applicable) 

* The time to acquire a sight picture that is good enough (or believed good enough) for a hit on target 

* The time required to cycle/ manipulate your firearm.

 

These penalties exist apply whether or not the target is struck.

 

So let's consider the simplest of sequences - the 10 round rifle dump.

 

The best can do this under match conditions in 2 seconds.

Good shooters in 3 or 4

Average in 5 or 6.

 

This means the time penalty for each shot is 2 tenths of a second per shot to 6 tenths per shot (for a significant portion of our shooters).

And a miss is, of course, 5 seconds added to the above time. 

So any miss against a like paced shooter places me 5 seconds behind them.

 

Move that target from 12 paces to 50.  Not only will misses increase.

The time penalty for successful shots increases and does so significantly.

Up to 3 and 4x increases.

 

Meaning that just the shot component can now be 6 tenths of a second to 2 seconds per shot.

 

The time component has increased - the miss penalty did not. 

Meaning a miss now carries less penalty. 

Because I can still acquire, manipulate and aim in my original 3-4 tenths of a second and IF I miss - my entire penalty for that shot is still 5.4 seconds.

 

My missed shot cost 4 tenths of a second - their hit shot cost 1.2 seconds.

 

But my miss penalty is no longer 5 seconds - but 4.2 seconds.

 

Move the target to 100 yards and you lower the miss penalty yet again.

 

If it requires 3 seconds to aim and hit and I take 4 tenths to do the same and miss.

My miss only put me 2.4 seconds behind your hit on the same target.

 

Lets say someone hit 8 of 10 at 100 yards.

30 seconds worth of aiming and 10 seconds of penalties. 

40 seconds.

 

Someone else snapping off rounds at 4 tenths per shot and they miss 7 of 10.

4 seconds worth of aiming and 35 seconds worth of penalties.

39 seconds.

 

Hmm, the literal definition of missing fast enough to win.

 

Tongue.jpg

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It may seem counterintuitive, but the closer the targets, and the faster the stages, the more mistakes become magnified.  Set up a stage that a really fast shooter can run in 20 seconds, and a miss has less impact than a stage that the same shooter can run in 15 seconds.  Yeah, it's 5 seconds either way, but in the first instance, it's a 25% penalty, but in the second, it's 33.3%.  Yeah it's easier to stay clean if they're big and close, but the penalty for not staying clean is now higher.  The same is true for transitions, the faster the stage, the bigger a component transitions become. 

Very true and extremely close big targets may not be faster than those same targets a bit further out. Think muzzle movement to clear a target and engage the next one. Less muzzle movement from target to target, there is a happy medium in there somewhere whether it's having fun or simply having delusions of grandeur! 

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As mentioned before, I like variety in CAS. Here's some more thoughts (if you have time to read):

 

There are sports and games where's everything (almost) identical all the time, the spacing between and the hight of the hurdles on a (official) 110-metre hurdles track are the same all over the world. Honestly, kind of boring to me...

 

Then, there are other competitions with more of variance. Let's have a look at the F1 racing championship for example. The fastest average speed on the extremely curvy and narrow track in Monaco was 97 mph (2007) while on a high speed circuit like Monza it was 154 mph (2003). It's always the same discipline, but the teams and drivers have to "engage" tracks (read "stages") with quite different characteristics to win the title while they never have to convert the racer in an offroad car. It needs some allround skills to become world champion, but the best teams can win on every track. I consider that interesting (at least when I was younger and used to watch it).

 

Back to CAS.

 

First, to each his own! For me, variety in a match, please! CAS has such great possibilities and you wouldn't have encountered all the "targets" in the Wild West in similar distances. I like matches that contain all kind of challanges, operating the guns as fast as possible, hitting targets that are a bit further down the bay, fast movement, tactics etc. I claim that I have a lot more fun in a match where nobody shoots clean than in one where (almost) everybody shoots clean (the term "partizipation award" was already used). I've never shot a match clean so far, sometimes with a lot of misses, a P now and then, but I always had a lot fun! My approach is to practice the skills that I lack most at the time, and not to look for matches that serve my better skills.

 

While I like big-close-stand-and-deliver stages alongside farther-and-smaller stages, I am aware that this brings up at least two major issues for a match(director):

  1. Unequal durations for the stages and posses. Somehow solvable I guess...
  2. Another big can of worms or dead horse: A shooter accomplishing a stage in 10 seconds compared to a pard with 13 seconds is a whole other story than a "long" stage with 25 vs. 28 seconds. This isn't reflected in the current overall time rating system. I personally think that each stage should be weighted equally in the final table, but I definitely do not prefer rank points! I'd vote for a solution like used in Wild Bunch. Not capable of winning a majority I guess...

Equanimous Phil

Edited by Equanimous Phil
Corrected "stage" to "rank"
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17 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

Another big can of worms or dead horse: A shooter accomplishing a stage in 10 seconds compared to a pard with 13 seconds is a whole other story than a "long" stage with 25 vs. 28 seconds. This isn't reflected in the current overall time rating system. I personally think that each stage should be weighted equally in the final table, but I definitely do not prefer stage points! I'd vote for a solution like used in Wild Bunch. Not capable of winning a majority I guess...

 

55my0e.jpg.286e63a611da16a1f4ae164b2223b1d1.jpg

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It is funny that we argued against Rank point scoring because penalties weren't the same for all shooters.  As in a fast shooter could have a miss and still get only one rank point.  And now we can argue the same for total time. (kinda)  Because, a miss for a fast shooter can be a much greater percentage of stage time than it is for a slow shooter.

Edited by Possum Skinner, SASS#60697
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For a local monthly match, I wrote a stage where we put out our largest rifle targets at about 15 yds.  For this one stage, those rifle targets were also the pistol targets.  :blush:   Nobody had a clean match.  Even I had one miss, and I wrote the danged thing!   Are we all capable of hitting a 24x30" piece of steel at 15yds with our revolvers?  Yes.   But, we're not used to it, the game has changed, and we're used to a faster pace.

 

Nobody was pleased with that stage, and it's the only time I did that.  If folks aren't having fun, why should I persist on writing a stage that way?  Like has been said, this is about providing the most fun for the most people.  Or, they'll "vote with their feet".

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50 minutes ago, McCandless said:

Are we all capable of hitting a 24x30" piece of steel at 15yds with our revolvers?  Yes.   But, we're not used to it

Watched some of Longhunter's Videos on Youtube a couple of weeks ago which aren't that old. He practices pistols on rifle targets because accuracy is a part in every shooting game. You're not good at on what you don't practice, just saying... And POA has to match POI if it's a bit further, of course. And you have to be able to adapt to the situation and slow down somewhat. As you said, everybody is capable of hitting a huge target like that on 15 yards. 

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