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Turkey Flats Jack

73 short stroke help

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Ok so I'm having issues getting my short stroke working correctly. It seems to be timed correctly when running it empty. However soon as the 1st dummy round goes into the chamber I can't get the lever closed all the way. Actually I can but it takes a lot of effort. I've tried looking at it with the side plates off and I'm not seeing anything other than the links aren't fully extending. I'm gonna scream if it's something simple that I'm over looking but I'm just not seeing it right now. Anyone have some insight on what I maybe missing? The pic is showing how far it closes without forcing it. 

 

Thanks,

 

Jack

IMG_20200820_194655756.jpg

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my first thought is your Dummy Round is sticking in the Chamber and not allowing the action to close fully.... Have you checked that?

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8 minutes ago, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said:

my first thought is your Dummy Round is sticking in the Chamber and not allowing the action to close fully.... Have you checked that?

Yep my first thought was the dummy round was out of specs. Checked it in a pistol and it chambered just fine. Checked it with calipers also and it's good. But just to be 100% I pulled the firing pin and checked with a live round and got the same results of the lever not closing.

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And it cycles just fine with no Ammo in it Rite????

Then the next thing I'd look at would be the Head Space..... 

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Posted (edited)

First, what caliber is the rifle and what dummy ammo (caliber, brand) are you feeding?  If the dummy is a reload, does your reload come in under the OAL recommendation for your gun and the particular bullet you loaded in the dummy?

 

Is the dummy cartridge going all the way into the chamber?   Or is the cartridge stopping with a visible gap between rim and barrel breech?  (look at the rim - front surface of rim should be right against the barrel breech face)  Or is it the rim of the cartridge jamming into barrel face that is stopping the lever from closing completely?

 

Is the extractor nose bottoming out in the cut just above the chamber?   (look for touch marks)

 

Is the cartridge support tab jamming into something? (look for touch marks)

 

Is chamber clean? 

 

And, yes, the links you received may be "too large" which forces bolt farther forward than you need, thus too-little headspace making it hard or impossible to close the action on the dummy round.  Cowboys and Indian links are marked with "length dots".  If you have a C&I kit, look for dots center punched into the side of each link.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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It chambers in the revolve cylinder.

But it does not chamber int he riflke chamber.

 

You measured the rounds and they are in spec.

Did you measure the throat of the rifle to make sure it is in spec?

What is the shape of the bullet?

Is the bullet hitting the chamber before going all the way in to the chamber.

Try making a couple of dummy rounds and move the bullet deeper in to the case a couple of thousands.

 

Also try putting a thin piece of leather in the action vertically before the bolt goes foward and see if the leather piece stops the bolt from travewling all the way forward.

If I understand your discription, the bolt goes all the way forward when empty.

 

As a commercial reloaded for many years, the shape of the bullet may be your problem.

Round nose flat points have can engage the chamber before it should.

Have you tried a Trunkcated cone bullet?

 

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4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Wrong length links?

Sadly I'm thinking this maybe the issue. No issues with live ammo or dummy rounds with stock links installed.

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1 minute ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

Sadly I'm thinking this maybe the issue. No issues with live ammo or dummy rounds with stock links installed.

Who's links are they?

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Have you tried putting a empty case in the chamber.   That would eliminate all bullet related problems.   If you could get a feeler gage the same thickness as the cartridge rim and see if action will close.  Reduce feeler gage untill action closes.      GW

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1 minute ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

It chambers in the revolve cylinder.

But it does not chamber int he riflke chamber.

it chambers in the rifle with all stock parts. The round chambers fine but the lever does not close all the way when the round is in the chamber.

You measured the rounds and they are in spec. yes

Did you measure the throat of the rifle to make sure it is in spec? no. But as mentioned it chambers with the stock links installed

What is the shape of the bullet? rnfp

Is the bullet hitting the chamber before going all the way in to the chamber. not sure what you mean

Try making a couple of dummy rounds and move the bullet deeper in to the case a couple of thousands. same dummy rounds I use for dry fire practice before installing the SS kit. 

 

Also try putting a thin piece of leather in the action vertically before the bolt goes foward and see if the leather piece stops the bolt from travewling all the way forward.

If I understand your discription, the bolt goes all the way forward when empty. It seems to. But the bolt seems all the way forward with the round in the chamber but the links aren't fully extended.

 

As a commercial reloaded for many years, the shape of the bullet may be your problem.

Round nose flat points have can engage the chamber before it should.

Have you tried a Trunkcated cone bullet?no I don't have any on hand

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

First, what caliber is the rifle and what dummy ammo (caliber, brand) are you feeding? 44/40 starline brass outlaw lead  If the dummy is a reload, does your reload come in under the OAL recommendation for your gun and the particular bullet you loaded in the dummy? yes. Same dummy round I've been using for dry fire with the stock parts

 

Is the dummy cartridge going all the way into the chamber?   Or is the cartridge stopping with a visible gap between rim and barrel breech?  (look at the rim - front surface of rim should be right against the barrel breech face) I'll double check but pretty certain it's seating fully

 

Is the extractor nose bottoming out in the cut just above the chamber?   (look for touch marks) nope

 

Is the cartridge support tab jamming into something? (look for touch marks)not seeing any

 

Is chamber clean? yes

 

And, yes, the links you received may be "too large" which forces bolt farther forward than you need, thus too-little headspace making it hard or impossible to close the action on the dummy round.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, G W Wade said:

Have you tried putting a empty case in the chamber.   That would eliminate all bullet related problems.   If you could get a feeler gage the same thickness as the cartridge rim and see if action will close.  Reduce feeler gage untill action closes.      GW

Just tried a brand new starline case and same issue. I'll have to get some new feeler gauges. Used the last set as shim stock on another project.

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9 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Who's links are they?

Cowboys and Indians. If I can't figure it out with help from y'all Ill try giving Jim a call tomorrow and see what he says. I spoke with him before ordering it to confirm it would work on this Navy arms uberti and he said I may have issues but should work.

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Just now, Turkey Flats Jack said:

Cowboys and Indians. If I can't figure it out with help from y'all Ill try giving Jim a call tomorrow and see what he says. I spoke with him before ordering it to confirm it would work on this Navy arms uberti and he said I may have issues but should work.

Jim is THE man! He'll get it straightened out for ya;)

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24 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Wrong length links?

 

Yep!

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Posted (edited)

44-40, in an old Uberti that was probably made in the 1990s or earlier (since it was imported by Navy).  Hmmm.

 

Just for giggles, do you have a fired case in the loading room that came from rifle when it had stock links in it?   Stick it in chamber and see if rifle closes on it  <_<

If it does, perhaps you have a shoulder on your test cases that is set too far forward for your chamber (common on new brass)!  And common because the .44-40 shoulder position in the chamber has not been held at a precise distance from the rim.

 

That old a gun may certainly not have the same frame dimensions as current production, and may require a CUSTOM set of links to get the headspace right.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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The links C&I will have dots stamped on them.  There are links with no dot, one dot, two dots and three dots all are different lengths made to adjust head space.  Tell Jim what you have and he will get you worked on in.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

...Just for giggles, do you have a fired case in the loading room that came from rifle when it had stock links in it?   Stick it in chamber and see if rifle closes on it  <_<

...Good luck, GJ

 

Also could take the dummy or a live round and with barrel aimed down and action open drop it into the chamber.  If you get the "clunk" from the rim hitting the back of the barrel, that should indicate their shoulders are okay.

Edited by Abilene, SASS # 27489

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What diameter are your bullets? I've had the same problem recently though not as bad. I resized my bullets to  .428. I also use a Lee Factory Crimp die but ultimately it took resizing the bullets. 

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1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

Also could take the dummy or a live round and with barrel aimed down and action open drop it into the chamber.  If you get the "clunk" from the rim hitting the back of the barrel, that should indicate their shoulders are okay.

Plunk test is good.

1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

What diameter are your bullets? I've had the same problem recently though not as bad. I resized my bullets to  .428. I also use a Lee Factory Crimp die but ultimately it took resizing the bullets. 

My rounds are all sized to 429. I'm confident it's not the ammo/dummy rounds. Same ones I use for practice with this rifle before installing the links. 

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I recently short stroked a "early model" uberti SRC. From your picture it appears to be the same. Yes the links are shorter than current production. Since my rifle will only be used for CAS, I did some careful filing and got the links to fit without having to force the action closed. Works great now.

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2 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

I recently short stroked a "early model" uberti SRC. From your picture it appears to be the same. Yes the links are shorter than current production. Since my rifle will only be used for CAS, I did some careful filing and got the links to fit without having to force the action closed. Works great now.

I was looking at it and thinking the same thing. Pretty sure I can make it work but I've sent an email out to Jim Bowie and see what he says before altering anything else.

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I imagine links are the issue based on above opinions however here is a "long shot" that pertains to a issue I have had a time or two.  Although this relates to one-piece firing pin systems, I think it might happen in original systems also.  There is a pin going thru bolt connecting the remaining part of firing pin system.  In my case, if that pin is not flush with bolt the links can touch it and have the feel that they are locked up.  Again, in my fix, a tap of that roller pin or better yet, install a new one, and make flush, and BINGO.  Easy to check with plate off.

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Posted (edited)

I also recently installed a C&I SS kit (5th gen) in an early model Uberti .44-40 SR carbine. Dropped right in, as did the kit I put in my Uberti .44-40 Henry (3rd gen). All I had to do was file on the carrier lever to adjust the timing. Don't touch those links until you hear from Jim.

 

If you are using the original brass carrier, you'll need to modify it. Go to C&I website for instructions.

 

Let us know how things turn out.

 

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783
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Just realized I never got back to this once everything was said and done.

After talking to Jim at cowboys and Indians store he shipped me as set of links that gives me an extra 5 thousandths headspace. Heck of a guy to work with. He dropped the new links in the mail the same day we talked. I sent the other ones back that day also but he didnt even wait on them. Got the new links in and 99% of my issues went away. It's still a little stiff to close that last little bit but nothing like what it was. After much thought I pulled it all out and put that rifle back to stock. I recently purchased another older 73 by navy arms and everything dropped right in and works smooth as silk. 

Thanks for everyones input and help on this! 

 

Jack

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