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Okay!!  Let’s get back to the original question again!  I’ve been as guilty as anyone of jumping the track here, but this is a valid question and for future reference, it could be useful in making our game better for more people!

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The only way anyone will drop the "better guns, better times" argument is when one of the top champions wins a national with a pair of converted walkers, a single shot shotgun and a henry big boy...

 

I have won two state championships in two different categories shooting a pair of uberti 58's i converted to 45lc, a rossi 92 in 45lc and a stevens shotgun... all the work done to them i did myself.

 

last year i came in second in the pocket pistol side match with an iver johnson first model 32 top break. the guy that won, borrowed my $50 IJ because he forgot his S&W and then beat me with it!

 

how?

 

same way you get to carnegie hall...

 

 

 

practice

 

 

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I'm going to steal a post and show you some comments from a shooter who was there "at the beginning", and is just tired of hearing all the kvetching. 

 

"Ugh. for all the "speed haters", it was a speed game back then as well, people tended not to moan about that, because they were moaning about getting in, out, on, off, down, around, carrying and throwing stuff, small steel, distances, all their misses, etc. ...  I was there and actually started and ran a match back when we did that "wonderful stuff" as a rule everywhere and guess what? Just as many people moaning about what it could be if we'd just do this or that. Lastly, you might consider how your current match directors feel about your disdain for how we shoot the game currently. It didn't get this way by chance. *stepping away from the rant box...*"

 

I have to agree with his sentiments.  I haven't seen or heard one constructive comment about what folks think needs to be changed, that isn't already being done.  Except to moan..."it ain't like what is was"... maybe that's because people wanted change and they didn't like "the way it was".

 

You want distant targets?  Small targets?  Different types of stages?  Write the matches at your club.  Tell us the feedback after a year of doing it.  Did your club grow, or numbers dwindle?  You want a one pistol category?  Make one at your club.   You want a rimfire category?  Make one at your club.  Want to try something different?  Do it at your club, see if it floats.  You want more attendance at your club's matches?  Make up some flyers and put them up in your local gun stores, bulletin boards, wherever!  (That's how I found CAS).   Too many categories, offer less categories at your club.  (We had one club president that wouldn't honor "Silver Senior", lumping that into the "Senior" category... until he turned 65... then Silver Senior was allowed).  You want old Double Action Revolvers?  Do it at your club.  Do you have a big turnout for matches with DA's?  Let us know.  At the club level you are wide open to experiment.

 

Stop beating the drum everytime someone asks about a rifle or a revolver, telling them they need to get this or that whizbang "go fast" thing to be "competitive".  To be competitive they need to be shooting.  Everything else will come with time.   Often, we are our own worst enemy.  Telling somebody they need to buy Rugers with a "Jimmy Spurs" action job and short-stroke doesn't help bring in a fellow on a budget that has to squeeze each penny 'til it screams.

 

Stop telling  folks that they need to "be in costume".  I hate the phrase "historically correct" when applied to SASS.  We ain't a re-enactment.  You want to be that way, more power to you.  But a new shooter is fine in jeans, long-sleeve shirt, and some non-athletic shoes and maybe a not-ball cap hat.   (My first CAS purchase was a palm straw hat with a wide brim after the skin doc carved off pieces of my face.)

 

On social media I see posts all the time from folks asking if their Henry Big Boy .45 is legal for SASS.  Simple question?  Not when there are 60 replies telling him to sell the danged thing and get a Uberti '73.  You'd be hard pressed to find an answer that says "Yes, bring it.  You're near my range, come on out and I'll show you the ropes".  

 

You want more shooters?  Act like it.

 

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2 hours ago, McCandless said:

Stop telling  folks that they need to "be in costume".  I hate the phrase "historically correct" when applied to SASS.  We ain't a re-enactment. 

See SHB, Page 2,  Clothing and Accoutrements

"Cowboy Action Shooting is a combination of historical reenactment and Saturday morning at the matinee." 

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There is no such thing as historical correctness in what cowboys wore. If you look at pictures they wear what they had! You see Billy the kid wearing a top hat, the original wildbunch had boller hats lots of civil war surplus. Some had civil war surplus boots or Brogans. Wear what you got.

Rafe 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

See SHB, Page 2,  Clothing and Accoutrements

"Cowboy Action Shooting is a combination of historical reenactment and Saturday morning at the matinee." 

 

I'll be sure to send the thread-count dweebs your way.   You're going to turn a new shooter away because they're wearing jeans and a long-sleeve shirt from their closet?  

Most shooters end up looking like something from "Bonanza", rather than anything from the 1800s.  You do what you want but don't dictate it to someone else.

I hate it when people "look down their noses" at someone else because of someone's guns, dress,  lack of speed when shooting, or anything else.  The person with that "superior" attitude hurts the game and I'd rather they weren't among us. 

 

Edited by McCandless
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39 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

See SHB, Page 2,  Clothing and Accoutrements

"Cowboy Action Shooting is a combination of historical reenactment and Saturday morning at the matinee." 

Clarification - are you interpreting that we are a "Reenactment" or...what?

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, McCandless said:

I hate it when people "look down their noses" at someone else because of someone's guns, dress,  lack of speed when shooting, or anything else.

 

You mean people look down on ME? Well, I'll be. :rolleyes:

 

Oh well, I hope they get some pleasure out of it because it matters naught to me.

Edited by Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L
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15 minutes ago, Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L said:

 

You mean people look down on ME? Well, I'll be. :rolleyes:

 

Oh well, I hope they get some pleasure out of it because it matters naught to me.

Oh, I like shooting with you.

You have as much fun as anyone on the range .

And, you shoot a lot of interesting firearms.

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51 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Clarification - are you interpreting that we are a "Reenactment" or...what?

 

Phantom

Not trying to interpret anything (not qualified).  Just reading the words that someone else put in the SHB.  Personally, I don't see it as a die-on-the-sword issue.  Does anybody really care what we call it? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, McCandless said:

 

I'll be sure to send the thread-count dweebs your way.   You're going to turn a new shooter away because they're wearing jeans and a long-sleeve shirt from their closet?  

Most shooters end up looking like something from "Bonanza", rather than anything from the 1800s.  You do what you want but don't dictate it to someone else.

I hate it when people "look down their noses" at someone else because of someone's guns, dress,  lack of speed when shooting, or anything else.  The person with that "superior" attitude hurts the game and I'd rather they weren't among us. 

 

You attribute a lot of biases and attitudes to me personally.  I didn't write the passage I quoted.   You need to take up your argument with the ROC or whoever wrote that SHB section and apparently erroneously (by your view) characterized us as 1/2 "reenactment".   I'm just the messenger who pointed out the language.  Change it if you like.  I don't care one way or the other.   

Personally, I would never turn anybody away, being so desperate for friends.  

 

I think you kinda overreacted, just a tad.  Apology will be accepted. 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

If you look at pictures they wear what they had!

BINGO!  And many of them didn't have very much.  Civil War leftovers and stuff made out of grain sacks were about it for many.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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Just a bit of ramble...

 

It seems to me most participants on this forum are in the US, but SASS is an international venture. Maybe I'm wrong on that...

 

From what I know of different countries, Germans and Japanese are really interested in the American Old West and the whole Cowboy experience.

 

So think outside the (USA) box.

 

And back to the question, an untouchable to me is the guns, you have to have some.

 

But does a new shooter really need to have all of them out of the gate? So many other members have offered loans of their firearms but that can not continue for all shooters as an ongoing offer.

 

I think there is a risk of creating new permanent categories allowing -- for instance -- new members to shoot pistols only. But knowing how much I am spending to join this sport, lowering the barrier to entry would have had me in the sport sooner.

 

In reviewing the responses in the thread asking if cost delayed entry, it seems the overwhelming majority were not delayed due to cost. Food for thought there, I am not rich and taking this on meant I was not buying a boat. Yes, a boat was an option; maybe that will be an option again in a few years.

 

So the guns (as currently defined) to me is an untouchable (no DAs shot SA only), but I would trade requiring the full complement of firearms to get started (like modern IPDA vs 3-gun). But I would want to keep all participants together rather than having this (pistols only) be a separate sport on a different day or different range.

 

So many here were not delayed in entering, they (you) had money to do it. Want more members? Make it possible to get started for somewhat under $2,000 including a case of ammo. And not with the most basic gear, but with quality equipment. Rifle, shotgun, reloading, and costume categories can build on a basic foundation.

 

What is then untouchable? A solid basic affordable foundation.

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35 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Not trying to interpret anything (not qualified).  Just reading the words that someone else put in the SHB.  Personally, I don't see it as a die-on-the-sword issue.  Does anybody really care what we call it? 

Well...yeah. Words do matter...did you really mean to ask that question?

 

The statement referenced includes the word "Combination".  

 

Many folks (including some here on the Wire), understand the origins and intent of the clothing requirements and the intent of the statement that you referenced.

 

SASS has NEVER been nor has it ever been intended to be any kind of "Reenactment" game. If it were, then those that started the game and those that were the first participants of the game would have gone out and got authentic western clothing...but they didn't...some did...but many did not.

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

See SHB, Page 2,  Clothing and Accoutrements

"Cowboy Action Shooting is a combination of historical reenactment and Saturday morning at the matinee." 

 

You take an entire statement I posted, pick out one sentence and proceed to try to pick an argument using one sentence from the SHB out of context.  Let's look at the rest of the story:  

"OUTLAWED ITEMS SASS wants our participants to be safe, have fun, develop their competitive shooting skills, and enjoy the rich traditions of the Old West. We ask you join us in the friendly spirit of competition and preservation of our heritage. The use or presence of any of the listed outlawed items will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty. - Modern shooting gloves - Short sleeve shirts (male competitors only) - Short sleeve tee shirts, long sleeve tee shirts, and tank tops for all competitors. (Long sleeve Henley type shirts with buttons are acceptable.) - Modern feathered cowboy hats (Shady Bradys) Straw hats of traditional design are acceptable (e.g., Stetson, Baily, Sombreros, etc.) - Designer jeans are not allowed. Designer jeans include modern jeans that have slogans or logos embroidered, silk screened, and such, saying things like “PINK” or “BABY.” Jeans with fancy or flashy adornments are acceptable. - Ball caps. - All types of athletic shoes or combat boots, no matter the material from which they are constructed. - Nylon, plastic, or Velcro accouterments. - The displaying of any manufacturer’s, sponsor’s, or team logos on apparel. (Manufacturer’s labels on such apparel or equipment are acceptable)"

 

That leaves an huge array of clothing choices.   "Saturday morning at the matinee" has nothing to do with re-enactment.  "Combination" means it is NOT a re-enactment.  We have enough whiners saying that we don't dress "period" enough, without pushing it further.  According to them poor ol' John Wayne wouldn't have been allowed to shoot with us.

 

Those who wish to outfit themselves in clothes of the 1800s are welcome to.  Classic Cowboys are a great sight on the range... batwing chaps and cuffs are "period correct" for the 1890s or later.  But we're talking here about getting people started... you aren't helping.

 

If you've got "Cowboy Untouchables" then contribute.   

 

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Edited by McCandless
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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well...yeah. Words do matter...did you really mean to ask that question?

 

The statement referenced includes the word "Combination".  

 

Many folks (including some here on the Wire), understand the origins and intent of the clothing requirements and the intent of the statement that you referenced.

 

SASS has NEVER been nor has it ever been intended to be any kind of "Reenactment" game. If it were, then those that started the game and those that were the first participants of the game would have gone out and got authentic western clothing...but they didn't...some did...but many did not.

 

Phantom

I actually agree with you.   I have wondered how that reenactment language has survived in the SHB for so long.  Personally I don't care what other shooters (particularly new ones) wear.  I worry about my own compliance and performance.   I never enjoyed judging others.  They can do what they please as far as dress is concerned, and it doesn't affect me at all. 

 

A huge number of our shooters wear particular clothing because they have particular health, safety, strength, metabolism or other issues.  Poking fun at them or criticizing them, unknowingly or otherwise, isn't my idea of the road to new friends or to fun.   

 

Folks here seem to have taken my pointing out a preexisting sentence in the SHB as some kind of personal assault.  It surely wasn't meant that way.  I think, at times, some folks here just look for any good argument, often about trivia.  That isn't a sin and it can be fun at times.  But often folks here get personally derogatory over very little.   I guess that's up to them.   I prefer to try to be constructive and helpful.  But it's quite hard to say anything here without offending somebody.   

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4 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I actually agree with you.   I have wondered how that reenactment language has survived in the SHB for so long.  Personally I don't care what other shooters (particularly new ones) wear.  I worry about my own compliance and performance.   I never enjoyed judging others.  They can do what they please as far as dress is concerned, and it doesn't affect me at all. 

 

A huge number of our shooters wear particular clothing because they have particular health, safety, strength, metabolism or other issues.  Poking fun at them or criticizing them, unknowingly or otherwise, isn't my idea of the road to new friends or to fun.   

 

Folks here seem to have taken my pointing out a preexisting sentence in the SHB as some kind of personal assault.  It surely wasn't meant that way.  I think, at times, some folks here just look for any good argument, often about trivia.  That isn't a sin and it can be fun at times.  But often folks here get personally derogatory over very little.   I guess that's up to them.   I prefer to try to be constructive and helpful.  But it's quite hard to say anything here without offending somebody.   

Have you considered that it might be you that is shaping the argument? That it might be your take on the meaning of the insertion of the word reenactment that is causing the riff???

 

The statement that you took without context is basically stating that CAS is a Hybrid of Reenacting and Saturday Morning Matinee. That means it (CAS), is neither Reenacting nor Saturday Morning Matinee. To try and argue that because the word exists that the definition is therefore set by the inclusion of that word is too take context and intent and throw it out the window.

 

To define CAS as a reenactment game will severely diminish the attractiveness of the game...this is option...but reenactment games don't generally hold a favorable view when it comes to market size.

 

Phantom

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49 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Have you considered that it might be you that is shaping the argument? That it might be your take on the meaning of the insertion of the word reenactment that is causing the riff???

 

The statement that you took without context is basically stating that CAS is a Hybrid of Reenacting and Saturday Morning Matinee. That means it (CAS), is neither Reenacting nor Saturday Morning Matinee. To try and argue that because the word exists that the definition is therefore set by the inclusion of that word is too take context and intent and throw it out the window.

 

To define CAS as a reenactment game will severely diminish the attractiveness of the game...this is option...but reenactment games don't generally hold a favorable view when it comes to market size.

 

Phantom

Agree again, except it would seem better to just take that sentence out of the SHB and save all this interpersonal crap.   Like you said, words are important.   A person should be able to quote from the SHB's descriptions ( like me--absent offering any of their own slant or interpretation), without such an uproar.   

I suspect the original intent of the sentence was inclusive, rather than exclusive.  They didn't say CAS is neither.  They said it is a combo of both.   Again, I didn't write it and I don't necessarily agree with it or care.  But briefly pointing it out, without interpretation shouldn't have been the source of such a firestorm.   If folks don't like it, and think the word "reenactment" has misdirection connotations, then be my guest, remove it.  I'm kinda tired of being drawn into arguing about nothing.  

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There's some good back and forth here.

 

But McCandless has pretty much hit it... every post.  

 

I don't have any "untouchables" other than those mentioned many times.

 

So the "touchables" are those matches that sell out every year.  They have the magic potion.

 

Read McCandless' posts again.

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22 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

There's some good back and forth here.

 

But McCandless has pretty much hit it... every post.  

 

I don't have any "untouchables" other than those mentioned many times.

 

So the "touchables" are those matches that sell out every year.  They have the magic potion.

 

Read McCandless' posts again.

Agree 100%

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Bug%2B1.gif

Well stated.  Love it! 

 

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2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Bug%2B1.gif

You just freaked me out I opened my iPad and thought a bug was on my screen! Crawling to my hand.

Rafe

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On 7/8/2020 at 7:24 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

1.  Since I am either stupid or stubborn (likely both with stupid leading the way) - I continue to create threads trying to zero down on the needs of our game moving forward.

 

2.  The general agreement is "we" love our game - but "we" know that changes are needed to sustain the sport for the next 40 years.

 

3.  The fear is, if we change the wrong things - we risk not only failing to grow, but losing our current core of shooters.

 

So...

4.  Just like I said in my other thread - I feel nothing should be off limits for discussion - but some feel differently.

 

5.  What do you feel should be off limits and untouchable?

my responses to your points:

1.  ...you ain't stupid, just concerned about our game and continuing it into the future.

2.  ...yes indeed I do.

3.  ...legitimate concern

4.  ...absolutely agree with you.  ...shouldn't ask for opinions if's you don't want to listen to the response.

5.  ..."...feel..." implies all concerns are welcome...

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