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Boomstick Bruce

Pistol vs rifle mv

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So my standard 45 Colt load is 5.5 gn trailboss and 200gn rnfp. Hogden load data claims out of a 6 inch barrel, I should be getting 706 fps. (My Remingtons are 5.5") that said I use the same load for my rifle ammo. What would the mv increase be in a 20" barrel??? 

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well just a guess but my 45 colt loads are right about 100 fps faster out of the rifle. I shoot nearly the same load you do. but I use a 180g and a 250g bullet.  I shoot 6 grain of trail boss and get 850 FPS out of the rifle with the 180g bullet and just over 750 out of the pistol. 
Interestingly I get a higher velocity with a heavier bullet out of the rifle and i would attribute that to higher pressure and a cleaner burn 

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With 250 gr. bullets using loads the run at 960 Fps. out of my 5.5 inch revolver they run 1,224 in my 20 inch 66...

And 1,260 out of my 24 inch 92 ...

 

Jabez  Cowboy

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Well ...... The same load, same Case, same Primer, same Bullet .....and depending if ya hold yer mouth right and chomp yer tongue in EXACTLY th same spot, Yer rifle velocity will be at least a couple of feet per second faster.  However, since we don't know what the actual velocity is out of the pistols it's strictly a WAG (Military acronym for Wild Ass Guess) at best.  Couple, two maybe three hundred FPS maybe.  I'd suggest finding someone with a Chrono and find out for sure.  Although, so long as you can get minute Pie Plate accuracy yer gold .. regardless.  :rolleyes:

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Mine is  Actual data using My guns over Professional Equipment and 10 shots out of reach gun under the same conditions on the same Day ...

Using a proven load with a low SD. and indeed that was proven out in the firing of the loads in all three guns ....

But velocities are subject to loading habits and load level .... I have found the the SD. is usually greater as lots loads are reduced below the designed burn pressures for best Burn ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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For me, this is certainly an interesting question.

There is a pressure loss in the revolver when the bullet traverses the barrel/cylinder gap and pressure is vented here.
A rule-of-thumb estimate from chrono testing is 1.5% loss of velocity for each 0.001" of B/C gap.
This is a non-issue in a rifle.

Trail Boss is a fast burn powder that burns up quickly.
It develops a high chamber pressure, but not so much of a stout initial pressure.
This is ideal for lead bullets, less than ideal for jacketed which requires a higher initial pressure.

My understanding of rifle powders is using a medium burn rate powder that develops more overall pressure over a longer time period.

OP, I configured Quickload for your revolver load using the Lyman #454190 bullet at 200 grains.
With a 6.0" barrel, QL agrees with your velocity, and that published by Hodgdon at 707 fps.
Velocity in a 20.0" barrel is 906 fps.





 

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12 hours ago, bgavin said:

For me, this is certainly an interesting question.

There is a pressure loss in the revolver when the bullet traverses the barrel/cylinder gap and pressure is vented here.
A rule-of-thumb estimate from chrono testing is 1.5% loss of velocity for each 0.001" of B/C gap.
This is a non-issue in a rifle.

Trail Boss is a fast burn powder that burns up quickly.
It develops a high chamber pressure, but not so much of a stout initial pressure.
This is ideal for lead bullets, less than ideal for jacketed which requires a higher initial pressure.

My understanding of rifle powders is using a medium burn rate powder that develops more overall pressure over a longer time period.

OP, I configured Quickload for your revolver load using the Lyman #454190 bullet at 200 grains.
With a 6.0" barrel, QL agrees with your velocity, and that published by Hodgdon at 707 fps.
Velocity in a 20.0" barrel is 906 fps.





 

 

Thank you, that's what I was looking for. 

 

My loads were questioned as to wether I'm making PF or not with my rifle for WB. Since I don't have a Chrono and no one publishes mv for rifle in their load data I was kind of worried he was right. I feel much better now. I still might step up a half a grain...

 

 

Edited by Boomstick Bruce
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5.5 grains of Trail Boss with a 200 grain LRNFP is a Minimum load with a PF of 141.
Stepped up to 906 fps in a 20" barrel, the PF=181.

The Max load for this cartridge and bullet is 6.5 grains.
Quickload shows this to be 1,003 fps which is a PF=201.
This is a 73% fill ratio with a bullet seated depth of 0.321"
QL shows max chamber pressure is 8125 psi, which does not agree with 11,000 from Hodgdon sources.
Either way, a soft-cast bullet of BHN=9 or lower is ideal.


 

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8 hours ago, Boomstick Bruce said:

Thank you, that's what I was looking for. 

 

My loads were questioned as to wether I'm making PF or not with my rifle for WB. Since I don't have a Chrono and no one publishes mv for rifle in their load data I was kind of worried he was right. I feel much better now. I still might step up a half a grain...

If someone questions your load, they should have a chrono to test 'em with.  Then you'll BOTH know.  I don't have it with me at the moment, but IIRC, Lyman's 49th & 50th Reloading Manuals have rifle data for 45 Colt.  I don't use Trail Boss, but I seem to recall it being in there.  You can probably SWAG (military term for scientific wild ass guess - requires a calculator)... the info you seek.

Edited by Griff
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My Lyman #48 has 45 Colt rifle data, 250gr is the lightest cast bullet.

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Howdy Boomstick,

 

Lots of interesting surmise here, but no one has asked how hard you pull the trigger. Do you pull it the same on your sixgun and your rifle. A good stout trigger pull could be good for a few extra feet per second.

 

Just a thought,

 

Reverend Chase 

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On 9/27/2019 at 6:12 PM, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

With 250 gr. bullets using loads the run at 960 Fps. out of my 5.5 inch revolver they run 1,224 in my 20 inch 66...

And 1,260 out of my 24 inch 92 ...

 

Jabez  Cowboy

Not criticizing, but are knockin' the snot out of the targets? That's a pretty weighty load... bullet AND fps.

Why close to 1000 fps in a pistol for CAS?

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On 9/28/2019 at 9:38 AM, Boomstick Bruce said:

 

Thank you, that's what I was looking for. 

 

My loads were questioned as to wether I'm making PF or not with my rifle for WB. Since I don't have a Chrono and no one publishes mv for rifle in their load data I was kind of worried he was right. I feel much better now. I still might step up a half a grain...

 

 

Bruce, just stop shooting on a posse with either myself or Jack U Mist. Your loads are plenty stout if you compare them to all the 38 shooters. 

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19 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Not criticizing, but are knockin' the snot out of the targets? That's a pretty weighty load... bullet AND fps.

Why close to 1000 fps in a pistol for CAS?

Because I am using Soft Cast bullets driven by a Powder Charge that gives the exactly the Same Velocity as those loads the REAL COWBOYS shot Per 1900 ....

I enjoy shooting Cowboy Mostly with Holy Black ,,, And My personal Steel Target has yet to be damaged ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

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2 hours ago, Trooper Ozzy said:

Bruce, just stop shooting on a posse with either myself or Jack U Mist. Your loads are plenty stout if you compare them to all the 38 shooters. 

 

it was during the wild bunch shoot, i know i beat out the mouse farts in cowboy lol

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1 hour ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Because I am using Soft Cast bullets driven by a Powder Charge that gives the exactly the Same Velocity as those loads the REAL COWBOYS shot Per 1900 ....

I enjoy shooting Cowboy Mostly with Holy Black ,,, And My personal Steel Target has yet to be damaged ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

But... we're not shooting REAL bad guys, we're shooting steel plates at 4-15 yds! With lead bullets, you're never gonna damage your targets unless they're made of tin foil. If your people are ok with you blastin away with hot "authentic" loads... then have a ball. Kinda excessive though... IMO

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What would the mv increase be in a 20" barrel??? 

Have  club member that owns a chronograph?

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Posted (edited)

why does it matter - we are shooting static targets and as long as we are within the velocity of the game i think using the same load in both simplify's life , i do not mean to minimize a careful load by any means , it just seems that unless you intend to use them in another venue there is no reason to load separate for the two , am i missing something here ? i am open to an education , 

 

i spent a good deal of time developing the round that functions in both to minimize my time reloading with a couple friends help , we found the right bullet and charge and OAL to work reliably in both the revolvers and rifles , im happy , 

 

i have access to a chrono , but we did all that back when to stay within SASS regs and maximize the experience - i like my loads 

Edited by watab kid
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On 9/29/2019 at 6:20 PM, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

...lead bullets, you're never gonna damage your targets unless they're made of tin foil.

Not so.  Even soft lead bullets can damage steel targets.  No it won't happen over-night, but repeated whackin' your plain steel targets when stout loads will eventually concave the face of the target.  Ad some tin & antimony to that pure lead and you'll be cratering the targets rather quickly.  

 

Until you start using some really hardened steel, (like AR500), you're going to have target damage.  

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For my 38 Special load, with a 147 grain coated bullet and fast(ish) powder (AA452) it chronos just under 950 fps out of my Cimarron Yellow Boy with an 18" barrel.

The same load in my Ruger Blackhawk (357 Mag chambers) with a 6 1/2" barrel it's at 770 fps. 

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