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Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428

Where to buy real Black Powder in So Ca

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OK, so I have a small stash of 1f, 2f, and 3f Goex.  I love shooting BP cartridge but I just haven't been that active in recent years (something I need to rectify).  I got a line on a beautiful flintlock, but before buying it I am looking to be sure I can get a hold of some 4f powder for the pan.  Last BP I bought was from Walker 47, so it has been a few years.  I have been calling everybody I know, I can't find a shop that still carries real black powder.  Does anybody know of a shop in southern California that still sells the real stuff?

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Thanks Lumpy, I was starting to feel like that was becoming my only option.  Buying more than a can (showing my age, they come in plastic containers now) at a time is a real good excuse to get to the range more often!

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I've been very pleased with Goex Old 'E' 2F.

I use it in everything from .38 Special to 45-90.

Burns kinda like 3F........

OLG

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Get together with a small group of BP shooters & buy a case.

Five shooters = 5 cans each = more than enuf for a little muzzleloader shooting.

Buy it from Powder Inc, Graf & Sons, Maine Powder House, just google "black powder suppliers" 

Goex, Schutzen, Graf's label is Schutzen -- They all work very well.

--Dawg

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In California, you are limited to buying and possessing only one pound at a time.  Obviously that doesn't work very well for our purposes.  Online vendors don't want to ship larger quantities here, because of the tracking and potential for follow up on hazardous chemical labelling.  So it's a dillema.  

Stores can buy larger quantities, to sell, but most do not have a legally required storage site to keep the unsold quantity in storage.    What I've done is make a deal with a store for them to order a large quantity and have it on hand for a particular date, when a bunch of our club members buy it up, so none has to be stored.  It takes some planning and real-time communicating, plus, a store willing to participate.   It's a senseless law that really does infringe on Second Amendment rights.   Whether there is actual enforcement outside of terrorist investigations, I do jot know.  

Some have found online vendors who will ship to CA, but I not been so fortunate to find any.  

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21 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

In California, you are limited to buying and possessing only one pound at a time.  . . .    It's a senseless law that really does infringe on Second Amendment rights.  

But don't you feel SOOO much safer!!!??

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45 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

In California, you are limited to buying and possessing only one pound at a time.

 

I didn't know that!

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

In California, you are limited to buying and possessing only one pound at a time.  Obviously that doesn't work very well for our purposes.  Online vendors don't want to ship larger quantities here, because of the tracking and potential for follow up on hazardous chemical labelling.  So it's a dillema.  

Stores can buy larger quantities, to sell, but most do not have a legally required storage site to keep the unsold quantity in storage.    What I've done is make a deal with a store for them to order a large quantity and have it on hand for a particular date, when a bunch of our club members buy it up, so none has to be stored.  It takes some planning and real-time communicating, plus, a store willing to participate.   It's a senseless law that really does infringe on Second Amendment rights.   Whether there is actual enforcement outside of terrorist investigations, I do jot know.  

Some have found online vendors who will ship to CA, but I not been so fortunate to find any.  

Source plz on the 1lb limit?

When BP is sold for 'small-arms' use, it is classified as a 'solid flammable', which is the same classification as smokeless powder

Call these folks-I get 25lb shipments......

https://powderinc.com/

 

OLG

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Source plz on the 1lb limit?

When BP is sold for 'small-arms' use, it is classified as a 'solid flammable', which is the same classification as smokeless powder

Call these folks-I get 25lb shipments......

https://powderinc.com/

 

OLG

Here is one reference source:

"Ammunition and Black Powder. ... California does place limits on storage of smokeless propellant - 20 pounds - and black powder - 1 pound. Prohibited persons may not possess any ammunition, or reloaded ammunition (Penal Code 30305) or any ammunition components (Penal Code 16150)."

 

Here's another more complete source:

 

CA Health and Safety Code 12000

 

12000.  For the purposes of this part, "explosives" means any
substance, or combination of substances, the primary or common
purpose of which is detonation or rapid combustion, and which is
capable of a relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and
heat, or any substance, the primary purpose of which, when combined
with others, is to form a substance capable of a relatively
instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat. "Explosives"
includes, but is not limited to, any explosives as defined in Section
841 of Title 18 of the United States Code and published pursuant to
Section 555.23 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, and
any of the following:
  (a) Dynamite, nitroglycerine, picric acid, lead azide, fulminate
of mercury, black powder, smokeless powder, propellant explosives,
detonating primers, blasting caps, or commercial boosters.

Ammunition and small arms primers are NOT explosives

Health and Safety Code 12000(f)

  (f) For the purposes of this part, "explosives" does not include
any destructive device, as defined in Section 16460 of the Penal
Code, nor does it include ammunition or small arms primers
manufactured for use in shotguns, rifles, and pistols.

California requires permits to do things with explosives

Health and Safety Code 12101

12101.  (a) No person shall do any one of the following without
first having made application for and received a permit in accordance
with this section:
  (1) Manufacture explosives.
  (2) Sell, furnish, or give away explosives.
  (3) Receive, store, or possess explosives.
  (4) Transport explosives.
  (5) Use explosives.
  (6) Operate a terminal for handling explosives.
  (7) Park or leave standing any vehicle carrying explosives, except
when parked or left standing in or at a safe stopping place
designated as such by the Department of the California Highway Patrol
under Division 14 (commencing with Section 31600) of the Vehicle
Code.
  (b) Application for a permit shall be made to the appropriate
issuing authority.

Permits do not apply to small quantities, as specified

Health and Safety Code 12102

12102.  This chapter does not apply to any possession or use of 20
pounds or less of smokeless powder, or one pound or less of black
sporting powder, provided that:
  (a) Smokeless powder is intended only for hand loading of small
arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
  (b) Black sporting powder is intended for loading of small arms or
small arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
  (c) All such powder is for private use and not for resale, and, in
the case of black sporting powder, there shall be no gift, delivery,
or other disposition to another person.
  (d) The storage, use and handling of such smokeless and black
powder conforms to rules, regulations, or ordinances of authorities
having jurisdiction for fire prevention and suppression in the area
of such storage, use, and handling of such explosives.

The "No person shall..." phrasing of 12101 suggests that the limits may be per-person rather than per-location, but this has not been verified.

Transport of small amounts does not need placards/markings

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Posted (edited)

Penal Code 30305 & Penal Code 16150.....

From what I read, only deals with ammo and folks who can't have it.

Where does it limit powder on hand?

For the most part in PRK---20lbs  of smokeless and 5lbs of BP is the norm..........

OLG

Edited by The Original Lumpy Gritz

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Penal Code 30305 & Penal Code 16150.....

From what I read, only deals with ammo and folks who can't have it.

Where does it limit powder on hand?

For the most part in PRK---20lbs  of smokeless and 5lbs of BP is the norm..........

OLG

I added a second reference later.  It is pretty clear that a blaster/pyrotechnic permit is required in order for A california resident individual  to be in possession of more than 20lbs of smokeless or 1 lb of black powder. 

 

Frankly, It surprises me that California shooters are not aware of these statutes (they are Legislated Laws, not just agency regulations).  They are cited in all of the latest versions of CA Gun Laws, and have been on the books more than a decade.   Our Club has been working on ways to legally work with the restrictions for some time.  The only legal thing we've come up with is the process of working with a dealer, which I described in my initial reply here.  

Just online ordering a 25# shipment is taking a huge risk in California.  It is classed as a felony, as if you are a terrorist making explosive devices.  A conviction would cost you your right to posess a firearm.  Nobody in our Club has been willing to take that risk.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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DDD is correct about the amount of BP allowed in Ca. It is classified as a explosive. 20 lbs of class B, which includes the BP subs, and ONE pound of real BP. Very few shooter realize that. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

DDD is correct about the amount of BP allowed in Ca. It is classified as a explosive. 20 lbs of class B, which includes the BP subs, and ONE pound of real BP. Very few shooter realize that. 

Wow! I did not know that. When did that take effect? I remember a guy I know in town ordered 20 lbs of bp mostly fora cannon.. On delivery day an ATF guy followed the delivery guy in and politely questioned the guys for a few minutes and left. Never heard a thing about it 

Edited by Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862
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1 hour ago, Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 said:

Wow! I did not know that. When did that take effect? I remember a guy I know in town ordered 20 lbs of bp mostly fora cannon.. On delivery day an ATF guy followed the delivery guy in and politely questioned the guys for a few minutes and left. Never heard a thing about it 

 That was about 2009

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 said:

On delivery day an ATF guy followed the delivery guy in and politely questioned the guys for a few minutes and left. Never heard a thing about it 

I think they were very lucky to get a reasonable agent.  (truth is, he probably would have liked to shoot the cannon with them).  But obviously, ATF became notified, so such shipments, are not as incognito as many think that they are.  

 

Truthfully, I've never heard of an enforcement action by ATF or by anybody else.  But the law is there, and it has a lot of us law abiding cowboys staying in compliance, just out of respect for the law and fear of picking up a ridiculous felony that ends all of our shooting.   Our big problem is finding online vendors who will sell/ship BP quantities as small as one pound.   So many settle for Pyrodex or other BP substitutes that are locally available.   Sad situation.  That's why we went to the effort to work the group purchase and logistical deal with our local vendor friend.  

 

FYI, Also keep in mind that if you have a fire, or for other reasons your insurance company finds that you have more than the legally allowed quantities, most companies (State Farm, Allstate, USAA, Oregon Mutual, Farmers, and most others) will instantly void your homeowners insurance policy and will pay no claims.   So be cautious keeping unlawful quantities at your California  place of residence.  Mine is stored in a legally confirming bunker, separate from my dwelling.  I keep only the allowed 1 pound on hand at one time.   That's, a problem, given need for the different types.  Can't do anything about that problem.  

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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1 hour ago, Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 said:

Wow! I did not know that. When did that take effect? I remember a guy I know in town ordered 20 lbs of bp mostly fora cannon.. On delivery day an ATF guy followed the delivery guy in and politely questioned the guys for a few minutes and left. Never heard a thing about it 

 

Since the BATF-E does not enforce state laws, the agent was probably checking to see if the buyer was a terrorist or other evil doer.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Muley Gil SASS # 57795 said:

 

Since the BATF-E does not enforce state laws, the agent was probably checking to see if the buyer was a terrorist or other evil doer.

I'm sure the hazardous shipping fees we pay are in part used to notify ATF, Homeland Security, FBI and others of the purchase and  shipment.   Big brother is watching, and probably rightly so, given the state of current events.  20# of BP could cause a real lot of damage and carnage, if improperly used.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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It's a State Law, not a Fed. I use to always order BP 25 lbs at a time before I was aware of the law. Yes, there are still places that will ship cases of it directly to your house in California. It is NOT illegal for them to do that.... but it is for you to have that much.  After I found out about the law, I hid it out until I got it used up  and then started using Sub powders for my less critical shooting, such as CAS.  I would keep a can of SWISS 1 1/2 on the premises for the big guns. Even that put a crimp on things. As much as we shoot in this game we need to buy right, and buying by the case is indeed the best way. Then we all have to face those periods of time when there is a shortage, and powder and primers are hard to come by.... so we stock up on them  just to make sure that we are covered. First thing you know, you have far too much powder on hand than the law allows.  I don't know of any situation where someone has been busted for having to much powder, but it could happen. If for some reason Law enforcement had a cause to Look up under your skirt, they could and would certainly use everything that they found to make you look bad. How many times have you seen a news cast that talked about the police finding several rifles and handguns, along with several hundred rounds of ammo in some guy's house? How many of you have that many guns and even more ammo? Heck, we can go through several hundred rounds with just my wife and I shooting two matches a month! I'd bet most of you do to. Best bet is to just keep a low profile, keep your mouth shut, don't get caught up in all the BS stupid Blusterous and Bantering talk about ".... from my dead hands", etc. I always liked what Teddy said, "Walk softly, but carry a big stick".  Since there is no limit on amount of ammo at this time, load as much as you can.... that is the best way around the limit on powder. Once it is in the cartridge it is no longer an issue. Lets face the truth... you can easily build a bomb using BP. It has been used for that purpose for many years... it can be done with smokeless powder too, but not as easily. I believe that is one of the reasons for the limit.

Snakebite

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This is truly surprising/shocking and sad to learn of the 1lb BP limit.:(

Heck-I go through 2-3lbs in 1 loading session. I use 85 gn in each case for my .45-90.

As to the no 'gifting' of BP-I'm doomed......:lol::rolleyes:

OLG

 

 

 

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" Dang it, I was going to blow something up but now they passed this law, so I guess I can't" , said no terrorist, ever.

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45 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

This is truly surprising/shocking and sad to learn of the 1lb BP limit.:(

Heck-I go through 2-3lbs in 1 loading session. I use 85 gn in each case for my .45-90.

As to the no 'gifting' of BP-I'm doomed......:lol::rolleyes:

OLG

 

 

 

Yeah, it's a pain in the Butt when they force people into a position to either break the law or stop shooting BP. When I was heavy into the Big Guns I would also go through a lot BP. Never did find a Sub that worked as well for any serious shooting. No doubt that many of those that put this into effect did so just to stick it to shooters, but I'd bet a lot of them didn't know, understand and couldn't imagine anyone needing that much powder for any Good reason. I am not overly concerned about it, but I think it is worth keeping the amount at one location pretty close to the limit just in case. Now that I live in Town (Boy I miss my mountain home) I don't let many neighbors know of my loading activities and keep a low key about my shooting. The insurance aspect in case of a fire is a very real concern.  I have a sprinkler right over my Powder Mag that will continue to dump LOTS of water as long as water is available.... in fact I have one in every room. I Keep my powder in one of those cheap sheet metal safes that you can get anywhere now days, and keep the primers in another one. It keeps things locked up, but the sides and door would blow out very easily if needed. 

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Posted (edited)

Keep mine in a old wooden military foot lockers.

Have one for primers, and one for powder.

I'm lucky, in the fact my closest neighbors are shooters.;)

I'm more worried about the 20 gallons of gasoline in my Jeeps gas tank, that's parked in the garage behind our bedroom wall.............^_^

FWIW-My last order of 25lbs of real BP was delivered to my residence without issue.........

OLG

 

 

 

Edited by The Original Lumpy Gritz
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42 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Keep mine in a old wooden military foot lockers.

Have one for primers, and one for powder.

I'm lucky, in the fact my closest neighbors are shooters.;)

I'm more worried about the 20 gallons of gasoline in my Jeeps gas tank, that's parked in the garage behind our bedroom wall.............^_^

FWIW-My last order of 25lbs of real BP was delivered to my residence without issue.........

OLG

 

 

 

Does the fire department have special rules to fighting fires at your house...Like sit on main street till done, then go in and put out the leftovers...

 

Texas Lizard

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No comment.  'Cause I don't have to!  

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I keep all my powder and primers in an old mini refrigerator. Small, insulated against fire, at least for a little while, and free. The sheet metal is thin and the door seals against moisture and dirt but will blow open if the powder goes, unlike a locked box like an ammo can, or worse, a gun safe. Plus I store it all outdoors in a tool shed. I do what I can to keep everybody safe.

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32 minutes ago, Texas Lizard said:

Does the fire department have special rules to fighting fires at your house...Like sit on main street till done, then go in and put out the leftovers...

 

Texas Lizard

 

They'll use the same rules for houses with all of the illegal fireworks stored in the garage--- :P

OLG

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

This is truly surprising/shocking and sad to learn of the 1lb BP limit.:(

Heck-I go through 2-3lbs in 1 loading session. I use 85 gn in each case for my .45-90.

As to the no 'gifting' of BP-I'm doomed......:lol::rolleyes:

OLG

 

 

 

Yep.  You have LOTS of company. 

 

Try to find a local vendor who will routinely order a larger quantity and help them organize a "no fail buying day" with all your BP friends.  Storage is defined as keeping for more than 24 hours, so all of the BP has to be sold the day it is received.  Logistics is a challenge, never knowing for sure what day the shipment will arrive at the vendor, but it's the only way we could find to keep our loading needs supplied.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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Never said I store it all at my place...........^_^

Tracking info will tell you what day it is to be delivered.

I do have to sign for the delivery..........

OLG

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