Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 (a long reach for that straw, IMHO) Many TOs decide if the shooter stops shooting, the shooter knows something is wrong and is going to next gun. Many shooters I deal with can't hear a TO range command well, let alone a WHY question. You are depending too much upon how you would do it, I would say. The TO may command "4 More" because they did not see/hear a squib, and if the shooter is depending on the PG squib call to be correct thing to do, either shooter ignores TO command, or gets into a time-consuming conversation. Neither of which I want to put a TO or shooter through. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, Hoss said: Personally, I don’t think I “hear” the PG when shooting. I would think if the shooter stops shooting the TO would instruct him to either keep shooting or ask why he is stopping. Either way I would think that would show TO coaching and would entitle Shooter to re-shoot if no squib found. I hear lead on steel and the occasional TO input but that’s it. After the beep I’m in my own little world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 21 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: After the beep I’m in my own little world. Gets lonely too........ OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Gets lonely too........ OLG If only those voices didn’t have such great ideas!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 The Peanut Gallery should stay out of it. The T.O. is the closest person to the shooter, gun and target. It is the T.O. that has the best chance of determining if the round was a squib. The shooter also has a good chance of knowing, but knowing if the bullet cleared can be a problem. If there is doubt, then the T.O. should call it. If the shooter believes that he had a squib, then he ought to put the gun down, but if he is wrong it is on him. PG calls have no weight when it comes to a restart or a reshoot. When I am running the timer, I pay attention to what is going on. You have all heard it said that the T.O. watches the gun... well that is true to a degree, but a good T.O. watches much more than just the gun. When you are running the timer and you find yourself not paying full attention, you have become little more than a Post that holds the timer. Relieve yourself from the position before you loose focus. One more thing: I've read post from the guys that go on and on about how they have been witness to guns being blown up, hands blown up, and just about everything blown up from a squib. Well I just find that very hard to believe in our game. It takes power to blow a gun up, and usually that power comes from a double or triple charge of powder, and the huge power spike at the front of the burn in smokeless powder. I have indeed seen guns blown up from a overcharge in powder. But when we get a squib in this game the bullet usually lodges in the forcing cone of a revolver, or at the end of the chamber in the rifle. It is very unlikely that firing another round of our anemic ammunition is going to blow up anything. The closeness of the stuck round will most likely just move on out the barrel, or stay stuck and start stacking. I'm NOT saying disregard it but IMO the danger is greatly exaggerated in this game of Gallery Loads. It is much more likely to happen in a high power cartridge. It kinda reminds me of all the hoopla from those that exaggerate about BP being ignited from a static electricity charge in you loading equipment. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 There are still a few of us old goats that shoot full loads. A squib, then a round behind that will not be pretty. Something to consider........... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: There are still a few of us old goats that shoot full loads. A squib, then a round behind that will not be pretty. Something to consider........... OLG The difference is, when you old goats are shooting full loads, everyone, including the shooter, knows when/if you have a squib because of the dramatic difference between the pop of a primer and the report of your good ammunition. On Saturday while I was spotting a relatively fast shooter who was shooting loads at the very light edge of the spectrum, on one stage in particular, he had 2-3 very light loads where I watched the slug exit the rifle barrel. The report wasn't much louder than than a primer. Had I not been in a position to see the round exit the barrel, it would have been easy to believe there had been a squib. The TO and the spotters are the only ones close enough to see whether the round has exited the barrel and are the ones who are tasked with making the calls. The PG allowed the stage officers to do their job and did not interfere which was the correct move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 I don't mean to discount the safety issue and If I have please excuse me. I would just like to reduce the Chicken Little attitude that some folks seem to have. I have never seen or heard any first hand information of any gun blowing up in SASS that was caused by a SQUIB. Perhaps that is because we do take it seriously. The T.O. should make that call if there is any doubt that the bullet did not clear the barrel. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said: The difference is, when you old goats are shooting full loads, everyone, including the shooter, knows when/if you have a squib because of the dramatic difference between the pop of a primer and the report of your good ammunition. On Saturday while I was spotting a relatively fast shooter who was shooting loads at the very light edge of the spectrum, on one stage in particular, he had 2-3 very light loads where I watched the slug exit the rifle barrel. The report wasn't much louder than than a primer. Had I not been in a position to see the round exit the barrel, it would have been easy to believe there had been a squib. The TO and the spotters are the only ones close enough to see whether the round has exited the barrel and are the ones who are tasked with making the calls. The PG allowed the stage officers to do their job and did not interfere which was the correct move. And you see these squibs more in the Fall/Winter with minimum loads, of certain powders that I will never use. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Let me be clear about my comments about squibs. I stand by my previous comments. I have only called a squib once in almost 20 years. I was a spotter when I called it. Neither the TO or shooter caught it. It really was a squib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Good for you Chrissy.... you are certainly no Squib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, Snakebite said: Good for you Chrissy.... you are certainly no Squib. She's a full load of black powder, on a windless day. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: She's a full load of black powder, on a windless day. OLG Are you saying she explodes with a big BOOM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 As a spotter I'll only help with engagement sequence or round count if the shooter / TO asks for help. But for safety issues, anyone should speak up. Handbook says we are all Safety Officers. If a TO won't back up a safety call like SQUIB from a Safety Officer (including giving a reshoot if appropriate), then the TO is wrong. PWB referenced Pg 15 of the RO1 student handbook. I can't get that to download, so I don't know what it says. But pg 18 of the shooter's handbook says " It is expected the Chief Range Officer will be the responsible party for observing and resolving all safety related matters occurring in the loading, unloading, and firing line areas. However, as all shooters are considered Safety Officers, any shooter who observes a safety infraction not witnessed by the CRO should call the infraction to a CRO’s attention, at which time the matter will be resolved." A Squib is not an infraction, but it's a "safety related matter". I have never and might not ever call a squib because I'm not experienced enough to be certain of the difference in sounds. But if anyone is certain enough to make the call, it's gotta be respected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 As a Spotter you ought to bring a suspected squib to the T.O.s attention. You are charged with assisting the T.O., but the call belongs to the T.O.. If the shooter stops and/or grounds his/her gun because you, rather than the T.O. yelled out "SQUIB", and there is no squib, there are no grounds for a reshoot. I will however add that if the T.O. should take your input unless he/she knows otherwise. (such as seeing the bullet exit the barrel). In either case the shooter should finish the course of fire. It needs to be judged that way or else everyone on the posse could easily have control of giving the shooter a "Reshoot". There will always be situations that fall outside of proper procedures but they are the exception and not the norm. Of course we want to error on the side of safety, and sometimes the shooter gets the short end of the stick with it happens, but when it comes to issuing penalties or granting "Do-Overs", there must be rules that are followed. It is not the prerogative of the T.O. to disregard the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 So we have rules... And folks are either openly willing to ignore these rules or are willing to manipulate the words to fit their belief in what the rules mean. How am I wrong? Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Yer not wrong... it seems that the rules are very often manipulated. I'm by no means a Saint... I've NOT seen some things that I should have. We have a little ol Lady that constantly shoots in illegal shoes.... I'm reminded of it by a few folks. I'm just glad that she is out there shooting, and have never noticed her shoes. I'll have to check that out next time. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 On 11/26/2018 at 12:47 PM, Snakebite said: I don't mean to discount the safety issue and If I have please excuse me. I would just like to reduce the Chicken Little attitude that some folks seem to have. I have never seen or heard any first hand information of any gun blowing up in SASS that was caused by a SQUIB. Perhaps that is because we do take it seriously. The T.O. should make that call if there is any doubt that the bullet did not clear the barrel. Snakebite Well , I can tell ya, it HAS happened. Not a blow up, but a split barrel. Shooting on a cold day (yes, it gets kinda cold in Georgia) and heard a light round, hesitated and heard NOTHING from anyone. Ok, it's a cold day, light load and kept going. Finished with the pistol, hitting targets so ok, the barrel's not blocked and got to unloading table to find loose ejector housing and eventually the split barrel. After months of searching and an order from Italy... wrong barrel threads. Found another barrel several months later and with the work required to install it, might as well get another pistol. Have a nice shiny replacement and a paperweight! My fault, but I wish someone had said something. I'm not condoning PG interference and I DO hear what's going on around me and sometimes the chatter is distracting. Safety is safety and it has been said, we are ALL safety officers. I'd trade placement in a match for my pistol back. Jussayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 BTW, I shoot 250 gr 45 Colts with Trail Boss at about a 1/3 max load. Far from max loads but definitely not mouse farts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 9 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: BTW, I shoot 250 gr 45 Colts with Trail Boss at about a 1/3 max load. Far from max loads but definitely not mouse farts. At the risk of being called a smart Alec, you should have known there was a problem and grounded the gun if the report was dramatically different from your usual rounds. You can't always depend on the TO. If you consistently get weak loads that you tend to ignore, your loading procedure needs to be looked at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Like I said, my fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 On 11/26/2018 at 3:25 PM, Snakebite said: As a Spotter you ought to bring a suspected squib to the T.O.s attention. You are charged with assisting the T.O., but the call belongs to the T.O.. If the shooter stops and/or grounds his/her gun because you, rather than the T.O. yelled out "SQUIB", and there is no squib, there are no grounds for a reshoot. I will however add that if the T.O. should take your input unless he/she knows otherwise. (such as seeing the bullet exit the barrel). In either case the shooter should finish the course of fire. It needs to be judged that way or else everyone on the posse could easily have control of giving the shooter a "Reshoot". There will always be situations that fall outside of proper procedures but they are the exception and not the norm. Of course we want to error on the side of safety, and sometimes the shooter gets the short end of the stick with it happens, but when it comes to issuing penalties or granting "Do-Overs", there must be rules that are followed. It is not the prerogative of the T.O. to disregard the rules. SHB page 20. Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, failure of the timer, or Range Officer interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted. I'm not sure about that call. A Spotter is a RO and the rule says RO, not TO or CRO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 There are a number of Range Officers but the call belongs to only one of them, and that is the CRO. If the spotter gets in the way of the shooter, then the spotter has impeded the shooter's progress. Just yelling out something my be a distraction, but it is NOT interference. If that were the case, ANYONE could yell out something and the shooter could get a restart/reshoot every time. Only an improper command/instruction from the T.O. is a valid reason to grant a reshoot/restart, not one from a spotter. I have first hand EOT knowledge of a shooter who's wife would yell out STOP if he made a mistake. He would then demand a reshoot. You would be surprised at how many T.O.s would be intimidated and fold to this WORLD CHAMPION and allow him a reshoot. It didn't work with me. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 I’m willing to accept that interpretation. I read it as interference from any Range Officer could be grounds for a reshoot, not just the TO. Any RO doesn’t include the PG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Cap... I think the KEY is "Could Be". At most larger matches, reshoots must be approved by the Range Master or MD, after reviewing the situation. As I'm sure you know, very few things are Absolute. I go back to my often stated example of the time I was shooting Stampede, and noticed a bunch of dirt bikers way out down range from all the common shooting stages. I was not timing or spotting, just a shooter in the pack. I yelled CEASE FIRE as loud as I could, and all the posses within earshot stopped shooting, and put up the Red Flag.. that was a case where something needed to happen RIGHT NOW. I've seen such cases when someone's dog ran out into harms way, and one time even a Deer. Flexibility is something that we must guard and not let it become over used.... such as the Benefit of the doubt sometimes is, but it is something that must be available. We do what must be done, especially when it comes to safety. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, Snakebite said: Cap... I think the KEY is "Could Be". At most larger matches, reshoots must be approved by the Range Master or MD, after reviewing the situation. As I'm sure you know, very few things are Absolute. I go back to my often stated example of the time I was shooting Stampede, and noticed a bunch of dirt bikers way out down range from all the common shooting stages. I was not timing or spotting, just a shooter in the pack. I yelled CEASE FIRE as loud as I could, and all the posses within earshot stopped shooting, and put up the Red Flag.. that was a case where something needed to happen RIGHT NOW. I've seen such cases when someone's dog ran out into harms way, and one time even a Deer. Flexibility is something that we must guard and not let it become over used.... such as the Benefit of the doubt sometimes is, but it is something that must be available. We do what must be done, especially when it comes to safety. Snakebite Were there reshoots given for those at the line that ceased fire? I'm trying to follow the difference between your scenario and that of a spotter calling Squib when in fact the shooter at the line has none but stops firing in case there actually is a Squib. I understand the real safety issue you observed, just as those that call Squib think they are seeing a safety issue in real time and only have a fraction of a second to decide. As a TO I have erred on the side of caution and called squib in error, and the shooter did get a reshoot! As a TO you should have confidence in your spotters as none of us are infallible. Just 2 months ago at Bordertown, good spotters saved the TO {me} from calling a FC shooter for a target that was obscured by smoke. I saw what I thought I saw, but was in error. I knew their experience and I trusted them! Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Cap C; Yes, every shooter that was stopped got a restart. I'm certainly not saying that the T.O. should dig his heels in and refuse to issue or request a restart/reshoot for the shooter. I'm saying, and have said a number of times, that if the T.O. know different, such as seeing the bullet clear the barrel, then that is the reason that he did NOT make the call, and don't forget, the call belongs to the T.O., not the spotter. If a spotter gives input to the T.O., and the T.O. does not accept it, then that is just the way it is. If I am the T.O. and know that the spotter is wrong, then I am NOT going to take that input, and am NOT going to issue a reshoot for incorrect information that he Spotter gave. SOMEBODY has to be in charge. If not, then we will have a total cluster F&%# at the match. That somebody is the T.O.. If he/she is not doing a good job, then they ought to be relieved from the position, but until they are, THEY ARE IN CHARGE, and such calls belong to them. This argument could go back and forth for ever. I'm just saying that the CALL belongs to the T.O.. If the T.O. agrees with or accepts the Spotter's input, then fine (and that will be most of the time), if the T.O. does not, then THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.. the call belongs to the T.O.. End of story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 Thanks for expanding your position, your knowledge is much appreciated. We are in agreement that the TO should be in charge and vigilant of his / her surroundings to the best of their ability. As a TO, often your in the best position to make the call when things are moving fast! I also understand that the final call on such matters is with the TO for better or worse. There will be times that a TO will get blind sided by that hyper active "celebrity" shooter asking for a reshoot. I've personally seen it happen to a TO . Unfortunately those are the moments that cause some competitors to avoid volunteering to spot or TO later down the road. Agreed.......in the end the call is the TOs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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