Eyesa Horg Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 I recently acquired an H&R 1871 Buffalo Classic. Could you folks help me with a "get started" load? Not sure what pressures this rifle is OK with, but I don't need a high power load I don't believe. I currently expect to be shooting out to about 200 yards. My confusion comes with load data from Hodgdon and Lyman. These loads are listed as being for an 1873 Trapdoor- the lowest in my reloading data books for IMR-3031 which is what I happen to have on hand. The Hodgdon Data site shows for a 405 gn. cast bullet a range of 45.5 gn. to 48.5gn. for a velocity of 1,597 to 1,706. My Lyman 4th ed. Cast Bullet Handbook shows for a 405gn. bullet a range of 34.0gn. to 38.5gn. for a velocity of 1,161 to 1,352. Seems like a pretty large difference between the 2 sources. What say you, and what is a good velocity range for 200 yards and for Plainsman competition? Much Obliged, Eyesa
Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 I've had good results with Trail Boss, near max load, driving a 350 grain bullet out to 200 yards. I haven't tried it further yet, since that is the current max range at my club. Weigh your bullets to ensure they are all similar in weight: I didn't and discovered flyers, because of hollows, that got covered by the sprue cut-off, when I stopped pouring too soon.
Captain Clark Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 40 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: I recently acquired an H&R 1871 Buffalo Classic. Could you folks help me with a "get started" load? Not sure what pressures this rifle is OK with, but I don't need a high power load I don't believe. I currently expect to be shooting out to about 200 yards. My confusion comes with load data from Hodgdon and Lyman. These loads are listed as being for an 1873 Trapdoor- the lowest in my reloading data books for IMR-3031 which is what I happen to have on hand. The Hodgdon Data site shows for a 405 gn. cast bullet a range of 45.5 gn. to 48.5gn. for a velocity of 1,597 to 1,706. My Lyman 4th ed. Cast Bullet Handbook shows for a 405gn. bullet a range of 34.0gn. to 38.5gn. for a velocity of 1,161 to 1,352. Seems like a pretty large difference between the 2 sources. What say you, and what is a good velocity range for 200 yards and for Plainsman competition? Much Obliged, Eyesa ^^^^^^^for 200 yards, this is plenty of whomp! 3031 is a favorite of mine for other applications and very versatile, but you should also consider a few others that perform well in 45-70. I'm learning to trust 5744 with cast bullets. Sure wish SR4759 was still being manufactured I get good results out of APP/ BlackMZ as well if your doing the smokey thing with the 405s.
Eyesa Horg Posted October 2, 2018 Author Posted October 2, 2018 Much Obliged Captain. I definitely want to do the smokey thing as well. I was thinking APP to start with and then go to real black. Sounds like you would prefer the data from Lyman compared to that from Hodgdon for 3031. Thanks again. This should be a fun adventure. Then to make the mods to make the gun SASS legal!
High Spade Mikey Wilson Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 I use Trail Boss with a 300 grain bullet out to 200 yards which is the maximum range at my local club. Does quote well, and is very easy on the shoulder.
Captain Clark Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 APP and BlackMZ are really good subs. Between the two I actually prefer the BlackMZ granulation for loading slightly more. It makes plenty of smoke, is easy on the shoulder and the wallet! And yes I do prefer the Lyman cast bullet book. Its not my only loading manual, but is definitely my go to guide!
Black Mike Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 Real black is great but if you want to shoot a lot you have to watch fouling. 405 gr std lube with full case APP and you can shoot all day. Targets at 300 yards. Uberti, Quigly Sharps.
Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said: I use Trail Boss with a 300 grain bullet out to 200 yards which is the maximum range at my local club. Does quote well, and is very easy on the shoulder. Yes, TB is comfortable to shoot. Quite pleasant in fact. When I switch to Varget, etc, it gives quite a thump to the shoulder. I found TB great for introducing women and kids to Buffalo guns.
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 Nothing shoots better and feels better in a 45-70 than real black powder. I prefer Swiss 1.5fg. Loaded up with 70 grains of bp through a drop tube and compressed, it still feels fine on my shoulder. And that's with a 535 grain bullet, a military steel buttplate, and no recoil pad. I'm not a big guy either, so if recoil is an issue, I would at least consider black powder.
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 .45-70 smokeless- With a 400-420gn lead bullet. Try 14.5-15.0 gn of Unique. Use a firm roll crimp. OLG
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 19 minutes ago, Hoss said: I like Unique in 45-70. I’ll pm you a load. As per MM. We can now post load data on the forum....... OLG
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 Quote The Hodgdon Data site shows for a 405 gn. cast bullet a range of 45.5 gn. to 48.5gn. for a velocity of 1,597 to 1,706. Hodgdon is almost certainly wrong on their data for 45-70 loads! The pressures that SAAMI accepts for Trapdoor Springfields is 18,000 CUP (copper units of pressure). The velocities for Hodgdon's "trapdoor" loads are what one would get with 1886 Winchester level loads. Which SAAMI specifies to run under or at 28,000 CUP. AND the velocities that Hodgdon data for the "lever rifles" level are going to generate pressures that are only safe in the Ruger falling block rifles! Hodgdon let some bad mistakes creep into the on-line loading data in the 45-70 section! I'd recommend you NOT use the Hodgdon load data from their web site for any 45-70 other than a stout falling block rifle. Your H&R Buffalo Classic could probably handle them, but will be REALLY punishing to YOU when shot from that gun. And that power level is not needed to get an accurate 200 yard load. The Lyman book data is accurate and safe. For Plainsman and 200 yard shooting, the 405 grain slug is plenty heavy. A good 300 grain bullet will work, at about 1300 FPS. 5744 powder is a good choice, Trail Boss will work, and your 3031 will work with a little data extrapolation down lower than Lyman's minimum published data. Good luck, GJ
Eyesa Horg Posted October 2, 2018 Author Posted October 2, 2018 GJ, Thank you for confirming my thoughts on the Hodgdon data. I loaded up 10 with 34.4 gn. of 3031 nd will see how that does and chrono it after the dang rain stops. Eyesa Much Obliged everyone for your help, it gives me some excellent starting info. I'm looking forward to playing with my new rifle. Burnin' powder and slingin' lead!
Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804 Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 I have almost a 20 grain spread in my light to heavy loads with 3031. I now only use it with my heavy loads for my 1895"s. For my trapdoor I have switched to 2400. I have some rounds that someone else loaded with 5744 and don't really care for them.
LostVaquero Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 Unique I liked but am tring Trailboss now. 16.5 gr TB and 300gr gives 1285 and is very pleasent to shoot. 405 g with 13gr also easy on the shoulder. More my eyes but either one I could ding the 500yard tiny gong (sure looked teeny tiny).
Eyesa Horg Posted October 2, 2018 Author Posted October 2, 2018 LV, Couldn't agree more on target size. I can just barely make out the 400 yard ones at my range! Quite a few suggestions for TrailBoss, may have to try it along with Unique and can use for other cartridges as well.
Major Crimes Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 H4198 (its AR2207 here) is the powder I use in my 45/70. In my Sharps I am using a 405gr proj with 34gr of 2207 for around 1350fps (will chrony it one day). At 200m it shoots just fine but I am looking for a longer range. I have played around with TB but found the 2207 a better fit for the velocities I wanted (I needed to load well above the load table max to get the velocities I can get with light 2207 loads).
High Spade Mikey Wilson Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 15 hours ago, LostVaquero said: Unique I liked but am tring Trailboss now. 16.5 gr TB and 300gr gives 1285 and is very pleasent to shoot. 405 g with 13gr also easy on the shoulder. More my eyes but either one I could ding the 500yard tiny gong (sure looked teeny tiny). +1 ......I use 16.0 grains.
Eyesa Horg Posted October 3, 2018 Author Posted October 3, 2018 Well, I tried my 10 cartridges today with 34.4 gns. of 3031. It grouped off hand at just over an inch at 50 yards. Pretty good I think for me! However, there seemed to be a lot of unburned powder in the barrel. Velocity ran about 1350- 1375. Lost most of my velocity records due to having the chrono too close to the muzzle and the blast deleted the string! That was different! One of these threads indicated not to crimp for a single shot rifle, but I think at least a light crimp would help with the unburned powder issue. So fay, so fun! I think I'm in the ballpark charge wise though. Much Obliged for everybody's help here. Eyesa
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 A little crimp won't hurt, and will help with burning all the powder. So would a magnum rifle primer. But if you get a 2" 100 yard group from the bench, I would NOT complain a bit. Good luck, GJ
Eyesa Horg Posted October 3, 2018 Author Posted October 3, 2018 51 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: A little crimp won't hurt, and will help with burning all the powder. So would a magnum rifle primer. But if you get a 2" 100 yard group from the bench, I would NOT complain a bit. Good luck, GJ Thanks GJ. I do have some magnum federal primers and will try them as well.
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