WTC Pistols out

[Lefty Wheeler]

shooter pulls first pistol and shoots four rounds, holsters it with hammer down on an empty. Pulls second pistol TO said one more. Shooter stages second pistol on table, did not cock it yet. Pulls first pistol, shoots fifth round, holsters it. Picked up second pistol from the table and finishes the string. I thought this was a no call.

 

[Griff]

No call in my book.  Safe to leave hand,

Quote

Revolvers are considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while holstering, or while moving
through a stage) and SAFE to leave the shooter’s hand in the following conditions ONLY:
- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber.
- Hammer fully down on an expended round. A revolver may not be originally
staged in this condition, but may be restaged in this condition.

 

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

Only a gunfighter or B western shooter shooting gunfighter style can stage a loaded pistol to be shot later.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

No call if the shooter is a gunfighter or B Western shooter. Anyone else would be a procedural for the first occurrence. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

The shooter could have shot the second pistol and then gone back to the first without penalty. 

[Griff]

1 minute ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

Only a gunfighter or B western shooter shooting gunfighter style can stage a loaded pistol to be shot later.

And you read this in what part of the Shooter's Handbook?  As long as both revolvers are not "in hand" at the same time, I don't find a prohibition in the SHB.  Is there a place where the SHB states "out of holster" or such?

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

19 minutes ago, Griff said:

And you read this in what part of the Shooter's Handbook?  As long as both revolvers are not "in hand" at the same time, I don't find a prohibition in the SHB.  Is there a place where the SHB states "out of holster" or such?

Yes there is. I’ll look for it. 

[Griff]

26 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Yes there is. I’ll look for it. 

The only instance I found is under the "Duelist" description, where it specifically states:

Quote

At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once.

(note its use of "in hand").  If the competitor places revolver #2 on the table before redrawing revolver #1.  I've heard (and read where) many folks use the term "out of leather" in describing this condition, but unless the two revolvers are in the shooter's hand at the same time, it's not prohibited.  If that was not the rule's intent, it should be clarified.  However, that would nullify the legality of initially staging both revolvers on a table, bale or other prop at the beginning of a stage.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

4 minutes ago, Griff said:

The only instance I found is under the "Duelist" description, where it specifically states:

(note its use of "in hand").  If the competitor places revolver #2 on the table before redrawing revolver #1.  I've heard (and read where) many folks use the term "out of leather" in describing this condition, but unless the two revolvers are in the shooter's hand at the same time, it's not prohibited.  If that was not the rule's intent, it should be clarified.  However, that would nullify the legality of initially staging both revolvers on a table, bale or other prop at the beginning of a stage.

If they are initially staged, they are considered as being holstered until they break contact with the table. I’m still looking for the rule, I am sure I have read it. Here is some TG meeting minutes in which the ROC reference it. 

[Dantankerous]

We really.need more rules...

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

The Gunfighter and B–Western Categories are the only categories that allow two loaded revolvers out of leather at the same time.

RO2 p.10

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

There it is.  ^^

[Griff]

I stand corrected.  I'd looked in both the RO 1 & 2 manuals, and only found the "in hand" reflected in the SHB, must've skipped over that language in the RO2 .  Needs fixin'.  Guess I've been callin' it wrong for years.  (At least I've been consistent)! 

[Lefty Wheeler]

thanks for the clarification.

[Rye Miles #13621]

7 hours ago, Smokestack said:

The shooter could have shot the second pistol and then gone back to the first without penalty. 

That's what I was thinking!

[Marauder SASS #13056]

So at this point, only a Gunfighter or B-Western shooter may correct this...

 

Sometin is wrong here.

 

But if it was the second pistol and he picked up his rifle, and not cocked it, he could then stage his rifle while he corrected the issue.

 

I hat to have to suggest this, but I think we need another rule change.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

What if it were a malfunction? 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

3 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

What if it were a malfunction? 

On which gun?

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Does it matter?

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

2 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Does it matter?

Yes, one only had one unfired round in it and the other had 5. The difference in the penalty would be 20 seconds. 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

And that makes sense, how?

 

I know that it is currently the rule, but does that make sense that only two categories are allowed to resolve such an issue?

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Just now, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

And that makes sense, how?

 

I know that it is currently the rule, but does that make sense that only two categories are allowed to resolve such an issue?

Everyone has the same opportunity to declare a malfunction. I guess I don’t understand your question. 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

7 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

That's what I was thinking!

Smokestack may remember from one of his earlier threads but is it NOT within rules  to go back to holstered revolver that has a round in it IF stage scenerio read to engage FIRST FIVE ROUNDS WITH FIRST PISTOL ..........rather than "with first five rounds engage".............Sorry. Straying from OPS question. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

1 minute ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Smokestack may remember from one of his earlier threads but is it NOT within rules  to go back to holstered revolver that has a round in it IF stage scenerio read to engage FIRST FIVE ROUNDS WITH FIRST PISTOL ..........rather than "with first five rounds engage".............Sorry. Straying from OPS question. 

There is no rule prohibiting a shooter from going back to a pistol that has been holstered except in the case of the “gunfighters may not reholster with the intent to engage more targets” rule. A shooter may shoot one from each pistol alternating so long as they do not have two loaded guns out of leather at the same time regardless of category. 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

19 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

There is no rule prohibiting a shooter from going back to a pistol that has been holstered except in the case of the “gunfighters may not reholster with the intent to engage more targets” rule. A shooter may shoot one from each pistol alternating so long as they do not have two loaded guns out of leather at the same time regardless of category. 

A bit off topic, but has anyone ever seen someone do that? I’ve thought about doing it at practice and local matches just to get better at getting that first shot off. I have a feeling most clubs around me would prohibit it, though. Most likely claiming it was against the rules. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

7 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

A bit off topic, but has anyone ever seen someone do that? I’ve thought about doing it at practice and local matches just to get better at getting that first shot off. I have a feeling most clubs around me would prohibit it, though. Most likely claiming it was against the rules. 

I have seen people do it in practice sessions but not in a match. Looks like a great way to shoot yourself in the leg if you ask me. 

[Yusta B.]

40 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

And that makes sense, how?

 

I know that it is currently the rule, but does that make sense that only two categories are allowed to resolve such an issue?

I think he could have resolved the issue by holstering the first pistol, fried 5 from the second, holstered it and redrawn the first - no ?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Yusta B. said:

I think he could have resolved the issue by holstering the first pistol, fried 5 from the second, holstered it and redrawn the first - no ?

 

He could also have re-holstered the second revolver since it hadn't been cocked; redraw #1; fire the 5th round; then continue with no penalty.

 

If he had declared a "malfunction" to stage the second revolver((instead of either firing or re-holstering it) then going back to #1, he would have had FIVE 5-second penalties for the unfired rounds...a firearm staged due to a declared malfunction is "out of service" for the remainder of that stage.

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

So at this point, only a Gunfighter or B-Western shooter may correct this...

 

Something is wrong here.

 

But if it was the second pistol and he picked up his rifle, and not cocked it, he could then stage his rifle while he corrected the issue.

 

I hate to have to suggest this, but I think we need another rule change.

 

No rule change needed...the rule pertains to two loaded REVOLVERS out at the same time...the rifle situation is NOT covered under that rule.

As long as a firearm has not been COCKED, it may be returned to its starting location if picked up/drawn at the wrong time/place.

 

The shooter in the OP had two options, neither of which would have resulted in a penalty.

 

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

58 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

And that makes sense, how?

 

I know that it is currently the rule, but does that make sense that only two categories are allowed to resolve such an issue?

If you were to allow both loaded pistols out of leather at once without a procedural penalty........(And a variation on the original post)

A shooter could draw both pistols, stage one of them, shoot the other other, then pick up the staged pistol and shoot it.

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Smokestack may remember from one of his earlier threads but is it NOT within rules  to go back to holstered revolver that has a round in it IF stage scenerio read to engage FIRST FIVE ROUNDS WITH FIRST PISTOL ..........rather than "with first five rounds engage".............Sorry. Straying from OPS question. 

 

If the OP shooter was a GF shooting DD, he would still be in compliance with category regs if he had holstered the 2nd revolver and redrew #1.

I doubt that the first revolver was holstered on purpose after firing only 4 rounds "with the intent" to engage another sequence.

The situation could have been remedied with no penalty, regardless of any unnecessarily restrictive stage directions.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Thanks, Palewolf.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Part of my confusion is that we allow a shooter to shoot one pistol, stage it, then draw the other, shoot it and then reholster both.  So it used to be legal to stage the gun while you redrew the one with the extra bullet.  The shooter would not have two loaded guns in hand.  So the current rules would allow that only for GF and BW - since they could stage but could not reholster, is that correct?

 

But the others must either shoot the second one dry, then redraw the first - Or reholster the second one, draw the first again, and then continue.  (Of course this assumes that the first was holstered.)

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

2 hours ago, Smokestack said:

I have seen people do it in practice sessions but not in a match. Looks like a great way to shoot yourself in the leg if you ask me. 

I’ve heard the same thing said about shooting gunfighter as well as just shooting cas. To each their own

[Griff]

If the intent is to only allow a Gunfighter to have two loaded guns out of the holster at the same time, the language under the Duelist section of the SHB needs to reflect that prohibition, not just stating "...in hand...".  As the statement that's it's prohibited to have two loaded revolvers "in hand..." is misleading.