Michael Ricochet Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 UPDATE 12/1/2017 First, let me tell you that Long Hunter has top notch customer service. They received my pistols on Friday afternoon and had them back in the mail to me the following Wednesday. That was quick turn around! And the work corrected the issues. They really stand behind their work and reputation. Both pistols were "fixed" as follows: The first pistol (P1) exhibited the issue first stated in my first post of this thread - would only go bang when "slip hammered". When firing "normally" would not go bang. The issue with P1 was that the firing pin was too short from the factory (Uberti). LH replaced the firing pin and it functions like its supposed to. My second pistol (P2) I picked up just before our annual match on November 11th (California 30 day waiting period for handguns) and I was really disappointed to discover that P2 would go bang when fired "normally" however would not fire when "slip hammered". Needless to say the match was a challenge to remember how to fire which pistol. LH says that the issue for P2 was that "the back of the pusher arm in the trigger mechanism was rounded off and would slip off and the firing pin would retract". LH "replaced the trigger assembly and also added some metal to the back of the pusher arm" as they discovered testing the new trigger assembly some issues as well. Both issues were an Uberti manufacturing defect. LH tested both pistols with CCI primers to ensure they would go bang every time. They took the time to make sure I would have no further issues. I took both pistols out to the range the day after I received them (Tuesday this week) and fired both Federal 100 and CCI primers and every one went bang. I tested "normal" firing as well as "slip hammer" and every one went bang. So now I don't have to worry about my guns not going bang! Really happy with the response from Long Hunter. They paid shipping both ways. They never tried to blame me for the issue nor blame my ammo. They took the pistols and fixes them right. I would highly recommend dealing with them! Ricochet ==================================================================== EDIT: Resolved the issue by holding down the trigger while I slip hammer. Every round fired during my match today. However this is just a work-around yes? The real problem lies in the Uberti Cattleman II "retractable firing pin" mechanism as described in the video down several posts by Cody Maverick. I have shot competition handguns in the past and believe that pulling the trigger back all the way and keeping it there would not be a very accurate way to shoot for precision, which is what the competitions that I have shot required. So to me this is all wrong, just my opinion. However because our CAS targets are close, slip firing worked just fine for me today. Does anyone know if there are links/posts on this forum on how to remedy this "retractable firing pin" issue? Best wises and thank you for all the replies! Ricochet ORIGINAL POST: ===================================================== Howdy Pards! Well I just got a pistol from Long Hunter and took it out for a shoot. It is a brand new Taylor's Short Stroke Smoke Wagon in .357 and I'm getting FTF with little or no primer strikes on my hand loaded ammunition (no problems at all with my S&W .357 mag using the same ammunition). The ammunition is brand new PMC nickel plated .38 special brass with Federal 100 primers. I also tried some once fired Winchester .38 special brass with the same results. Here is what I did/know so far with questions afterwards: I did a visual and yep those primers are pushed in all the way - perhaps too far? They are definitely below the level of the case head. I am using an RCBS hand priming tool. So I took a piece of new PMC brass and seated a primer flush. Sure enough - BANG! (I am detonating the primer in a towel so as not to scare the neighbors. I can fart louder.) However, now the primer sticks out beyond the case head and there is trouble turning the cylinder/cocking the next round. Bad. So I try seating it a little deeper. Hmm, does not want to go bang on the first try however three tries later and BANG! The primer still sticks out a bit. So I tried this same process with some once fired Winchester brass with the exact same results. When I can get it to go BANG, I cannot rotate the cylinder. This is a brand new gun from Long Hunter (I tried to call them however they are closed today so I will contact them on Monday). I was hoping that it would be a dreamy experience however its not. Perhaps I should not try this on a Friday the 13th? I'm not superstitious (yet). I was hoping it was the PMC brass however it appears not to be. The box the beautiful pistol came in has two extra parts in there - likely the stuff that Long Hunter replaced. A big long flat "spring" and some weird looking piece of metal with a round hole on one end and a slot on the other, about 1.5" long. I am guessing that if I replace the spring that is in the gun with the one in the box that I will be able to fire the primers that are seated deep. However, I am also guessing that my trigger pull will be a lot firmer. But that is OK as my very first CAS match is tomorrow morning and I would like to shoot this gun in the match. Suggestions? Thanks pards! Ricochet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coyote, SASS #63736 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 One thing to note...firing a unfilled case (no powder or bullet) will usually cause the primer to back out by itself. DC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex M Rugers #6621 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 When you pop a primer in an empty case the primer will back out to the recoil shield and be hard to turn the cylinder. When you fire a regular loaded round , the case sets back against the recoil shield hard enough to re-seat the primer. That is normal. If you want to shoot your sixguns tomorrow , you may have to load up some rounds with the primer flush with the case head. Then hope the firing pin doesn't just seat the primer and still not set it off. Or try changing the mainspring like you said. Sucks when stuff doesn't work like it is supposed to. Good luck , Rex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 8 minutes ago, Don Coyote, SASS #63736 said: One thing to note...firing a unfilled case (no powder or bullet) will usually cause the primer to back out by itself. DC I did not know that - 'splains that issue. Actually I've never fired a case with just a primer in it. Been reloading since 1990. Well, it appears I have two options: Load some cases with the primers flush or replace the main spring. I think I'm going to replace the main spring for now because with the current hand priming tool I have there are no adjustments - its all by feel and my "feel" isn't that great. I had been eyeballing one of them fancy priming tools with an adjustable seating depth so I'll probably get one of those and hopefully that will solve the primer seating depth issue. However, because it'll take a few days to get the new tool and I need to shoot this thing tomorrow, I'll just replace the mainspring and test fire some primers that are seated deep to make sure they go BANG then just hope for the best. I'll bring my S&W .357 for "backup" (hopefully they will allow me to fire it single action). Its not like its a tournament as this is my first match. Thanks for the great info pards! Ricochet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Seamus Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I recently got a pair of Taylor short stroked and Taylor Tuned in 45. Had a FTF with one. Called Taylor's and talked to gunsmith. Kinda figured out the problem to possibly be combination of light springs and the new through the hammer transfer bar system. He wanted me to send them back and he said he would make the go bang for me. I didn't want the hassle of sending them back so I politely declined. I did a suggested workaround and the worked fine for a couple matches. Last weekend they both had FTF and I had the both apart at the ULT. I'll try them again tomorrow and if they don't go bang, I'll be calling Taylor again. Their gunsmith was extremely helpful and wanted to make everything right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Try tightening the main spring screw. Federal primers can be difficult to set off with lightened springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron "Ironhead" Smith Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Sounds like the retractable, unreliable firing pin issue. Been there, done that, Taylor's "fixed" it to under a one pound trigger pull. It is now with a real gunsmith. Not buying Taylor's again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 54 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said: Try tightening the main spring screw. Federal primers can be difficult to set off with lightened springs. How is that done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Seat the primer to the bottom of the primer cup in the case, every time. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Seat the primer to the bottom of the primer cup in the case, every time. OLG OK then what do I need to do to ensure the round goes BANG? I just swapped out the long spring (hammer spring?) and I tried it with a case, primer seated in all the way and I still have no BANG so now I am at a loss. OLG are you saying to push the primer all the way in or seat it flush with the case? Ricochet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Seat the primer all the way in-ALWAYS! That goes for ALL handloaded rounds. Is the hammer powered by a leaf spring or coil type? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Seat the primer all the way in-ALWAYS! That goes for ALL handloaded rounds. Is the hammer powered by a leaf spring or coil type? OLG Yeah thats what I thought too. Its a leaf spring. Any other suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Is there a strain screw that can be tighten up? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Normally, tightening the screw that connects the main (hammer) spring will cause the hammer to hit a little harder, but if you have replaced the spring with one that hasn't been lightened and primers aren't going off then, most likely, it's something else. Is the hammer one of the new ones with a retractable firing pin? Is there any appreciable movement of the cylinder, forward or backwards? Jared does good work so it's probably best to speak with him next week before you drive yourself to distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 Thanks for all the helpful replies! OLG I don’t see a strain screw or anything that appears to be adjustable. Tex yes is appears to be a retractable firing pin in the hammer. I’ll call Long Hunter first thing Monday and talk to them. A fellow shooter is going to bring some extra ammo for me to try tomorrow so we’ll see how it goes. I learned a lot from this little problem... Ricochet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cent Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 "Federal primers can be difficult to set off with lightened springs." Tex, you sure you typed that correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 After watching this video a few times I would be suspicious of this firing pin safety system. I imagine a few spots that could be out of spec a little and result in intermittent FTFs. They do say in the video that the trigger must be held fully back during firing so it would imply that you could pull the trigger enough to release the hammer and then relax you finger before the round fires and get an FTF by design. (really crappy setup IMO) The OP mentions finding a rod about 1.5" long with a hole in one end and a slot in the other which sounds like a description of the transfer bar that goes inside the hammer. So... I wonder if the gunsmith replaced it? if so; I would have hoped it would have been done to make the gun more reliable instead of less. If this were my gun that I was only going to use for CAS then I would be looking for a modification to block that firing pin in the extended position and get rid of the transfer bar altogether. GOOD LUCK!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron "Ironhead" Smith Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Make yourself a test case for primers by drilling out the flash hole so the primer has just enough metal to seat against. The primer is less likely to back out and jam the gun up. Put the primed case in the cylinder so it would be the second round fired and slip hammer with the trigger pulled to the guard. It should go bang. Next put the primed case in the cylinder and yank the trigger as hard as you can. It should go bang. Repeat but use your normal trigger pull, probably won't go bang as you have found out. There is a spur on the trigger that needs the trigger to be all the way back for the spur to push the rod inside the hammer up high enough to push the lever to push the firing out far enough to deliver a good primer strike and it has to be that way at the moment of primer strike. The design is pretty much liquid feces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 Cody: thanks. This is news to me. Never heard of a retractable firing pin. crazy stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 40 minutes ago, Michael Ricochet said: Cody: thanks. This is news to me. Never heard of a retractable firing pin. crazy stuff... It sounds pretty obvious you have a firing pin protrusion issue. A Colt style SAA should have at least .045" protrusion beyond the recoil shield. Uberti has had protrusion issues even before they come up with this retracting pin. With the gun unloaded and the hammer down look in the gap between the cylinder and recoil shield. you should see the tip of the firing pin almost touching the back of the cylinder. If this is a retraction pin gun you will need to be pulling the trigger back too. You can sometimes get bu with less but you will probably need a heavier hammer spring. BTW, with proper firing pin protrusion you should be able to use any primer, not just the softer Federals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 9 hours ago, Red Cent said: "Federal primers can be difficult to set off with lightened springs." Tex, you sure you typed that correctly? You're right, Red. "Seemed like a good idea at the time.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 For a dedicated SASS gun I would be removing that safety feature pronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 11 hours ago, Red Cent said: "Federal primers can be difficult to set off with lightened springs." Tex, you sure you typed that correctly? Agree Red...My experience is that Feds are the easiest to ignite. Other than my FA 454s, and a few 44 mag handguns, Federals, usually the GM200M are my most used primers. Literally tens of thousands, perhaps 99+% of my yearly loading which is somewhere in the 25K neighborhood. I trust Federals to go bang over any other primer, and yes, much the reason because I run rather light hammer springs on my CAS rifles and revolvers. (Note: Some arthritis in your duelist thumbs then you will understand at least one good reason for lighter hammer springs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 OP-How much front to back movement does the cylinder have? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 11 hours ago, CodyMaverick said: After watching this video a few times I would be suspicious of this firing pin safety system. I imagine a few spots that could be out of spec a little and result in intermittent FTFs. They do say in the video that the trigger must be held fully back during firing so it would imply that you could pull the trigger enough to release the hammer and then relax you finger before the round fires and get an FTF by design. (really crappy setup IMO) The OP mentions finding a rod about 1.5" long with a hole in one end and a slot in the other which sounds like a description of the transfer bar that goes inside the hammer. So... I wonder if the gunsmith replaced it? if so; I would have hoped it would have been done to make the gun more reliable instead of less. If this were my gun that I was only going to use for CAS then I would be looking for a modification to block that firing pin in the extended position and get rid of the transfer bar altogether. GOOD LUCK!!! I agree 110%- OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 9 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: OP-How much front to back movement does the cylinder have? OLG None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 OK back from my very first CAS match and boy was that a lot of fun! Here is an update on my FTF issue: The issue was resolved by holding down the trigger while "slip hammering". Every round fired during my match today, no FTF. However to me this is just a work-around? The real problem lies in the Uberti Cattleman II "retractable firing pin" mechanism as described in the video up several posts by Cody Maverick. I agree with Cody Maverick - there needs to be a solution for this issue. I will be asking Long Hunter on Monday morning and let y'all know what they say. Many thanks to my fellow CAS/SASS members of the Dulzura Desperados who took a look at my pistol before the match and J. B. Corn who recommended slip firing, which did the trick. The match was a huge success for me and I also want to thank Evil Dogooder for selling me the Rossi 92 and Heck Know who sold me the Stoeger SxS. All functioned flawlessly. Ye-haw! Ricochet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 With the gun firing correctly because you keep the trigger depressed. This is normal. Did the issue only happen when pulled the trigger for each shot then?? Let someone else fire the gun, to see if it's you or the gun........ OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: With the gun firing correctly because you keep the trigger depressed. This is normal. Did the issue only happen when pulled the trigger for each shot then?? Let someone else fire the gun, to see if it's you or the gun........ OLG Yes the issue only happened when pulling the trigger for each round. Explain to me how this is normal. I mean I can see how this is normal for the retractable firing pin however I don’t see how this is normal for a Colt SAA clone. i had my son shoot it with the same results. Ricochet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 14 minutes ago, Michael Ricochet said: The issue was resolved by holding down the trigger while "slip hammering". Every round fired during my match today, no FTF. However to me this is just a work-around? The real problem lies in the Uberti Cattleman II "retractable firing pin" mechanism I agree with Cody Maverick - there needs to be a solution for this issue. I will be asking Long Hunter on Monday morning and let y'all know what they say. Ye-haw! Ricochet Howdy Ricochet, glad you got her working. When you talk to them ask them how I'm spose to slip-hammer when shooting Gunfighter or Duelist. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I used a poor choice of words-SORRY With the trigger all the way back-It locks the rod in place to let the FP extend. When the trigger is pulled just enough to release the hammer. I don't think(SWAG)that rod is in it's correct location. That vid does say the trigger has to be held down, at the 26 second spot. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron "Ironhead" Smith Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: I used a poor choice of words-SORRY With the trigger all the way back-It locks the rod in place to let the FP extend. When the trigger is pulled just enough to release the hammer. I don't think(SWAG)that rod is in it's correct location. That vid does say the trigger has to be held down, at the 26 second spot. OLG I had the same issue with a Gunfighter. Not only does the trigger have to be all the way back is has to be there and held there before the pin strikes the primer. This can be reliably accomplished two ways: slip hammer or jerking the trigger extremely hard. It is not reliable when using what most folks consider normal trigger squeeze technique. As I said before this design sucks about 40" of mercury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 11 minutes ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said: Howdy Ricochet, glad you got her working. When you talk to them ask them how I'm spose to slip-hammer when shooting Gunfighter or Duelist. Good Luck EXACTLY my thoughts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: I used a poor choice of words-SORRY With the trigger all the way back-It locks the rod in place to let the FP extend. When the trigger is pulled just enough to release the hammer. I don't think(SWAG)that rod is in it's correct location. That vid does say the trigger has to be held down, at the 26 second spot. OLG Ahh now I get you. Yeah I don’t shoot that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ricochet Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ron "Ironhead" Smith said: I had the same issue with a Gunfighter. Not only does the trigger have to be all the way back is has to be there and held there before the pin strikes the primer. This can be reliably accomplished two ways: slip hammer or jerking the trigger extremely hard. It is not reliable when using what most folks consider normal trigger squeeze technique. As I said before this design sucks about 40" of mercury. Exactly the problem! I don’t normally shoot that way. ill post back once I talk to Long Hunter AND I’m on the hunt for a drop in replacement for this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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