John Wayne belt question.

[Bucharest Jack , S.A.S.S. #60581]

Hello all!

 

I was watching El Dorado with my wife and noticed on Thornton's (John Wayne's) cartridge belt, he had what looked like a 45-70 cartridge in the middle of the bullets. Is this to keep the .44-40 for the rifle and the .45 for the pistol separate? Or am I completely off base? 

 

Any information y'all might have to square me away would be gratefully accepted. 

[Griff]

That's my understanding of its purpose.  I'm sure there are several online references to it...  here's a quick sampling:  "John Wayne's Gunbelt"

[Bucharest Jack , S.A.S.S. #60581]

Oh! I can't believe it didn't occur to me to Google it. Thanks, Griff. 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

From my understanding from an article in a Gun and Ammo magazine decades ago. This was answered by Wayne and a carry over from talking to an old timer. The 45-70 was put on the 13th loop and told that there were only 2 complete reloads left for the pistol. (it also mentioned in the article that almost all carriers of the SA only loaded 5 and hammer down on mt cylinder. But during a fight, shooter loaded all 6 cylinders). MT

I still have that copy, if I can dig it out I'll try to post the article.

[Russ T. Sites]

20 minutes ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

From my understanding from an article in a Gun and Ammo magazine decades ago. This was answered by Wayne and a carry over from talking to an old timer. The 45-70 was put on the 13th loop and told that there were only 2 complete reloads left for the pistol. (it also mentioned in the article that almost all carriers of the SA only loaded 5 and hammer down on mt cylinder. But during a fight, shooter loaded all 6 cylinders). MT

I still have that copy, if I can dig it out I'll try to post the article.

That's the reason I was told also

[Pat Riot]

Just as I suspected...I did a search on Google and found conjecture, rumor and innuendo. 

 

Who'da think it?...

 

https://truewestmagazine.com/why-does-john-wayne-appear-to-have-a-large-caliber-bullet-in-his-belt/

 

http://www.answers.com/Q/Why_did_John_Wayne_have_just_one_long_bullet_in_the_back_of_his_gun_belt

 

Most of the info I encountered was on forums...everything is true there, right?

 

The two that I got the biggest kick out of were:

1. He did it to honor horse soldiers of the past.

2...And the Doozie...He had that cartridge there as a last resort in a gunfight 

[Cowboy Junky]

Whatever the reason was there are a lot of folks copying it at SASS matches. 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

5 hours ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

From my understanding from an article in a Gun and Ammo magazine decades ago. This was answered by Wayne and a carry over from talking to an old timer. The 45-70 was put on the 13th loop and told that there were only 2 complete reloads left for the pistol. (it also mentioned in the article that almost all carriers of the SA only loaded 5 and hammer down on mt cylinder. But during a fight, shooter loaded all 6 cylinders). MT

I still have that copy, if I can dig it out I'll try to post the article.

I know it's nitpicking here, but you mean chambers not cylinders. Only cap and ball guys carry around 6 loaded cylinders. As for the whole load 5 back in the day, I have found very little evidence of this. I am convinced it is a more modern phenomenon. If the colt SAA, or any six shot colts for that matter, were intended to be loaded with only 5 rounds, then there would have been a different design. We can rest assured that originally they were designed to hold six because of the safeties in place, even if they are relatively flimsy safeties. Why would someone engineer a safety if it was never intended to be used?

 

3 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Just as I suspected...I did a search on Google and found conjecture, rumor and innuendo. 

 

Who'da think it?...

 

https://truewestmagazine.com/why-does-john-wayne-appear-to-have-a-large-caliber-bullet-in-his-belt/

 

http://www.answers.com/Q/Why_did_John_Wayne_have_just_one_long_bullet_in_the_back_of_his_gun_belt

 

Most of the info I encountered was on forums...everything is true there, right?

 

The two that I got the biggest kick out of were:

1. He did it to honor horse soldiers of the past.

2...And the Doozie...He had that cartridge there as a last resort in a gunfight 

Some John Wayne movies have the bad guys carrying trap doors or springfields or sharps rifles so perhaps it does hold true that the big round could be used as a last resort in some other gun left lying around by a dead bad guy. Or Wayne could throw it at someone. Yeah it's a bit of a stretch haha.

 

3 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Whatever the reason was there are a lot of folks copying it at SASS matches. 

Yeah I do it as well. I would say it's a combination of knowing when I'm running low on pistol ammo and to separate my rifle ammo. Even though I have never need to use a round from my belt for my pistol, and I wear a bandoleer that has rifle loops on it, it's still my story and I'm sticking with it. Though I might add the last resort line if asked next time. Truth is, Wayne probably got it from the old cowboys he met early in his career, such as Wyatt Earp, and perhaps he used it as homage to them, and I do sort of the same as a homage to Wayne. I think I'll get some of those rooster shooter type grips next.

 

[Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368]

3 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Whatever the reason was there are a lot of folks copying it at SASS matches. 

 After all what would John Wayne do.        Adios   Sgt.  Jake

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

10 hours ago, Bucharest Jack , S.A.S.S. #60581 said:

Hello all!

 

I was watching El Dorado with my wife and noticed on Thornton's (John Wayne's) cartridge belt, he had what looked like a 45-70 cartridge in the middle of the bullets. Is this to keep the .44-40 for the rifle and the .45 for the pistol separate? Or am I completely off base? 

 

Any information y'all might have to square me away would be gratefully accepted. 

 

The duke had it there from which to hang his empty brass bag.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

25 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

I know it's nitpicking here, but you mean chambers not cylinders.

 

LOL, got me. Thanks for nitpicking, I deserved it and correcting my wording. MT

[Pat Riot]

I know....When the Duke was young and naive he grabbed a Winchester 92 off the rack and a Colt SAA for his first movie shoot. Being exuberant he wanted the biggest rounds possible in  his belt to show off what a bad hombre' he was so he stuffed the biggest round he could find in the Prop Room into his gun belt only to find that he couldn't get it out. The set Armorer told him they only had one belt for him so he'd have to live with it because he needed to be on set ASAP. As he was getting the rest of his outfit ready the Armorer noticed that the big round was in the 13th loop and he told John Wayne to say "Well, you see, it keeps my pistol loads separate from my rifle loads" whenever anyone asked. On the way to the set the Duke decided to modify what the Armorer had told him and he decided that he would change it to "Well, Pilgrim, it's there to let me know how many full pistol reloads I have left". Well the movie producers and director didn't like that line but they let him keep the belt after the shoot was over and John Wayne used that belt in nearly every movie after that.   The Director of "Who shot Liberty Valance" loved the intro to that line, "Well, Pilgrim,..." but they changed the last part. He also got to use his new trademark line in McClintock the following year. The mystery of the 45-70 round in his belt remained a mystery for along time  but Jimmy Stewart let the cat of of the bag on the Tonight Show back stage with Johnny Carson back in 1981. He wanted to bring it up during the shoot but Johnny didn't think it appropriate at the time for some reason.

 

And that, Boys and Girls, is how internet rumors get started.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I know it is heresy to demean anything John Wayne did...

But the 45-70 round in the belt loop always stuck me as kind of, hmm, whats the word?  Silly?

 

Let me see;

I have this set of loops on my belt to carry my rounds for taking game, surviving outlaw and indian attacks, killing off predators and snakes.

There is only a limited number of spaces on this belt - I should definitely WASTE one by placing a round in there for a gun that I dont have.

 

Yup - that is by far, the best use for that loop. 

 

[Dorado]

55 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I know it is heresy to demean anything John Wayne did...

But the 45-70 round in the belt loop always stuck me as kind of, hmm, whats the word?  Silly?

 

Let me see;

I have this set of loops on my belt to carry my rounds for taking game, surviving outlaw and indian attacks, killing off predators and snakes.

There is only a limited number of spaces on this belt - I should definitely WASTE one by placing a round in there for a gun that I dont have.

 

Yup - that is by far, the best use for that loop. 

 

Kinda my thinking on it too. From a practical standpoint it doesn't make sense. But this is Hollyweird where they have SAAs in the Civil War that shoot 20 rounds without a reload and can knock a man 20 feet back.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I know....When the Duke was young and naive he grabbed a Winchester 92 off the rack and a Colt SAA for his first movie shoot. Being exuberant he wanted the biggest rounds possible in  his belt to show off what a bad hombre' he was so he stuffed the biggest round he could find in the Prop Room into his gun belt only to find that he couldn't get it out. The set Armorer told him they only had one belt for him so he'd have to live with it because he needed to be on set ASAP. As he was getting the rest of his outfit ready the Armorer noticed that the big round was in the 13th loop and he told John Wayne to say "Well, you see, it keeps my pistol loads separate from my rifle loads" whenever anyone asked. On the way to the set the Duke decided to modify what the Armorer had told him and he decided that he would change it to "Well, Pilgrim, it's there to let me know how many full pistol reloads I have left". Well the movie producers and director didn't like that line but they let him keep the belt after the shoot was over and John Wayne used that belt in nearly every movie after that.   The Director of "Who shot Liberty Valance" loved the intro to that line, "Well, Pilgrim,..." but they changed the last part. He also got to use his new trademark line in McClintock the following year. The mystery of the 45-70 round in his belt remained a mystery for along time  but Jimmy Stewart let the cat of of the bag on the Tonight Show back stage with Johnny Carson back in 1981. He wanted to bring it up during the shoot but Johnny didn't think it appropriate at the time for some reason.

 

And that, Boys and Girls, is how internet rumors get started.

When legend becomes fact, print the legend.

 

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I know it is heresy to demean anything John Wayne did...

But the 45-70 round in the belt loop always stuck me as kind of, hmm, whats the word?  Silly?

 

Let me see;

I have this set of loops on my belt to carry my rounds for taking game, surviving outlaw and indian attacks, killing off predators and snakes.

There is only a limited number of spaces on this belt - I should definitely WASTE one by placing a round in there for a gun that I dont have.

 

Yup - that is by far, the best use for that loop. 

 

I don't understand this statement. Doesn't everyone have at least one 45-70 rifle? I read those were standard government issue to all citizen's out west, hence the name of the round 45-70 government. If you don't believe me, read my response to Pat Riot.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Steve McQueen had a whole belt of 45-70 in Wanted: Dead or Alive.  Maybe his Mare's Leg was actually an '86?  

[Catgut Cav]

I think some of you are being a little harsh. 

 

Isn't it in the SASS rule book, "The Duke can do no wrong"?

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

18 minutes ago, Catgut Cav said:

I think some of you are being a little harsh. 

 

Isn't it in the SASS rule book, "The Duke can do no wrong"?

I think it's in the RO3 manual

[Trailrider #896]

2 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

When legend becomes fact, print the legend.

 

I don't understand this statement. Doesn't everyone have at least one 45-70 rifle? I read those were standard government issue to all citizen's out west, hence the name of the round 45-70 government. If you don't believe me, read my response to Pat Riot.

While it is true that in specific instances, where a citizen (civilian) had no gun at all, and could not be evacuated, the Army would issue a rifle or carbine (depending on whether the unit was infantry or cavalry).  But, no, they did not issue arms to everyone they ran into.  And, while the troops standard arm might have been .45-70 Trapdoor Springfields, they usually didn't have many to spare of that type and caliber.  They might, however, have some obsolescent .50-70's, either Trapdoor's or Sharps and a lot of ammo around that they issued to their civilian employees of the QM dept. (Companies C,G & I 3rd Cavalry had five Sharps and 50,000 rounds of .50-70 at Sidney Barracks, NE, in 1875-76.

 

As far as the caliber of John Wayne's sixgun is concerned, there was an article some years ago that indicated he packed a .38-40.  Don't know about his rifle, but as long as it was either a .38-40 or .44-40, the 5-in-1 blanks used in the movies would work in either.  As far as Steve McQueen's belt holding .45-70 rounds is concerned,,,MORE HOLLYWEIRD.  I just saw one episode where he was hunkered down in some rocks and appeared to be reloading his Mare's Laig from his belt. But it was night, and you couldn't tell what cartridges he was "loading" into the carbine.

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

Its hard to believe there are any nits left to pick heabouts.

Best

CR

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Who are you all calling silly???

 

You wanna call me that, smile.

 

 

 

By the way, I stopped filling my belt with ammo a long, long time ago. Much too heavy. The rounds you see in the loops are a few 44-40s in case I need a reload for my rifle. The Colts are 45s and 44-40s wouldn't be much good in them.

 

 

Regarding the so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer of a SAA, engineers are not always right. They may have put the notch on the hammer of the SAA, but there is plenty of evidence that the gun could discharge if a live round was under the hammer and it received a strong blow. That's why Bill Ruger changed the design of his single action revolvers. He had been sued a couple of times, and lost.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

1 hour ago, Trailrider #896 said:

While it is true that in specific instances, where a citizen (civilian) had no gun at all, and could not be evacuated, the Army would issue a rifle or carbine (depending on whether the unit was infantry or cavalry).  But, no, they did not issue arms to everyone they ran into.  And, while the troops standard arm might have been .45-70 Trapdoor Springfields, they usually didn't have many to spare of that type and caliber.  They might, however, have some obsolescent .50-70's, either Trapdoor's or Sharps and a lot of ammo around that they issued to their civilian employees of the QM dept. (Companies C,G & I 3rd Cavalry had five Sharps and 50,000 rounds of .50-70 at Sidney Barracks, NE, in 1875-76.

 

As far as the caliber of John Wayne's sixgun is concerned, there was an article some years ago that indicated he packed a .38-40.  Don't know about his rifle, but as long as it was either a .38-40 or .44-40, the 5-in-1 blanks used in the movies would work in either.  As far as Steve McQueen's belt holding .45-70 rounds is concerned,,,MORE HOLLYWEIRD.  I just saw one episode where he was hunkered down in some rocks and appeared to be reloading his Mare's Laig from his belt. But it was night, and you couldn't tell what cartridges he was "loading" into the carbine.

I was joking about the government issued 45-70. Hence the Liberty Valance quote. 

 

As to the caliber of John Wayne's gun, while there is some conjecture with no real proof that he may have used a 38-40 in his early movies, the gun he's known for is actually a 45 converted from a 44-40 bisley model. With an altered trigger guard and tea stained faux ivory grips. 

[Trailrider #896]

RK,

I do have (somewhere in the bat cave) a copy of an order issued by IIRC the commander of the Division of the Missouri, allowing issuance of military arms to settlers if there was a threat of hostile Indians in the area, so while you may have been joking about issuing .45-70's to everybody, there were times...  The .45-70, in various forms, was very popular, however,  if for no other reason than you could acquire ammo from the Army in a pinch, but also in commercial loadings. Sharps chambered a number of their rifles in .45-2.1", which is nothing more than designating the .45-70 by the cartridge case length, rather than the powder charge and bullet weight (as in .45-70-405).  The advantage to commercial .45-2.1/.45-70 was that the cartridges were externally primed brass, and could be reloaded, whereas until about 1885, the Army made only internally-primed centralfire, copper cartridge cases, which caused extraction problems during rapid fire.

 

As far as The Duke's pistola is concerned, as long as it could handle the 5-in-1 blanks, everything was copacetic.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Trailrider, thanks for sharing that bit of history. Having a Shiloh sharps, I am aware of the 45 2.1 name but didn't know any of that about the government issuing arms and ammo to civilians. That's interesting stuff there. 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Here's on one of his original pistols. MT

Not all firearms, but maybe of interest.