Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Howdy Been a lot of talk on the wire re BP lately. I'm going to hop up on my horse for a while. Although I've been a shooter most of my years.. Cowboy was only started 10 years ago & my involvement with the darkside has only been the last 5 so I'm still learning...what I do know is I love the 'REAL BP, only time I bought a sub was when my wife wanted to try but ended up being happier with the good stuff. Now I know that in some locations BP is a lot harder to get hold of because of Hazmat restrictions etc. [& other reasons ] so subs are used. Our rules say shooting smoke obscured targets & yes we get that with both but that's where the same comparison stops. The majority of sub users say how well their guns run, don't need any messy lube, easier to load etc..well that ain't shooting 'Black ! Shooting real Back is a challenge to have the right recipe for your loads, keeping the guns running & everything that goes with making it all come together for a successful match ! I am in no way having a go at those that use subs..it has it's place just don't compare it to real BP. If anything have BP & Sub category's. On a final note 'Frontiersman with a sub..now that's hard to get the head around. No flames & sparks out of the barrel ..well no more to be said. I'II hop down now........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Holy Black is the One True Powder! Anything else is just a fake. Kidding aside, I agree with you completely. It's NOT just about smoke. It's about the smell, the sparks, the flame, and yes, the cleanup which is not nearly as hard as some seem to think. It's the entire package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Holier than thou? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 56 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said: Holier than thou? Spare me the sour grapes - it's about having fun and if you don't like it, then don't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 19 minutes ago, JohnHenryQuick said: Spare me the sour grapes - it's about having fun and if you don't like it, then don't do it. No sour grapes. Just "black" humor. Holy black humor. I should have added a . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Subs are fun. BP is funner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 I've shoot holy black for many years in muzzle loading rifles, cap pistols, "buffalo" guns. I've used it some in cowboy action shooting - mostly in shotgun. I shot out about 5 lbs of Pyrodex that had accumulated over the years. And I just found another pound in my powder cupboard yesterday. I'll probably use it up in shotgun loads. But when I found BlackMZ at Sportsman Warehouse at such an attractive price, it was too good to pass up. Also, about 2/3 charge more than equal real black power and still has plenty of smoke. I'm assembling pistols and rifle in 44WCF. I'm still waiting on the second Smoke Wagon. When it ever gets here, I will probably load up some real black just for nostalgia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 It is expected the blackpowder competitor shall contend with smoke obscured targets. Howdy I wrote that. Back a bunch of years ago there was an issue with a few Black Powder shooters putting minimal charges in their cartridges so there was not much recoil and not much smoke. So SASS decided to put together some requirements for Black Powder shooting, which included a standard for how much smoke is produced. I wrote up a preamble and submitted it to my TG, who then passed it along to the rules committee. My statement was a bit longer than that, but that is how much made it into the rule book. In writing my preamble, I was harkening back to JFK's speech he made he made about America's space effort in 1962. "We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard" My thinking was, we in the Black Powder fraternity choose to shoot this way, not because it is easy, but because it is hard. I may have included that somewhere in my original preamble, but it was probably edited out. Not only contending with smoke obscured targets, but having to contend with loading processes that include special lubes and bullets that are designed specifically for Black Powder. Having to load our own ammunition because there is very little commercially available. And of course having to clean up afterwards, and yes it is not as difficult as many believe. That was my thinking when I wrote my preamble, although only the smoke obscured targets component was retained. Personally, I have nothing against the shooter who prefers the subs, whatever his reason. I just know that for me, I want to shoot real Black Powder, and must deal with its requirements. I must add though, that it really annoys me when I see Black Powder referred to as 'Holy Black'. I just think that's silly. We're not in a Monty Python movie. Black Powder has been around for centuries, there is nothing particularly special about it. It is just an alternative propellant. I like to compare shooting Black Powder to driving a clutch, which I am still doing after many years. There is nothing holier than thou about driving a clutch, I just prefer the intimate contact it gives me with the road. And driving a clutch requires me to do some extra things which the average driver does not have to do, like remembering to put the clutch in when I come to a stop, and it requires somewhat different technique when starting on a hill. That's the way I feel about shooting Black Powder. It requires a special set of skills, but there is nothing 'holy' about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 We have had a lot of interaction with Amish and Minnonite around central Missouri. Even amongst the Amish and Minnonite, their rules for living very considerably. I often wonder how critical the strict Amish are with those that are more progressive and so on up the line to the black bumper Minnonite. Just a thought that came to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said: I must add though, that it really annoys me when I see Black Powder referred to as 'Holy Black'. I just think that's silly. We're not in a Monty Python movie. Black Powder has been around for centuries, there is nothing particularly special about it. It is just an alternative propellant. I like to compare shooting Black Powder to driving a clutch, which I am still doing after many years. There is nothing holier than thou about driving a clutch, I just prefer the intimate contact it gives me with the road. And driving a clutch requires me to do some extra things which the average driver does not have to do, like remembering to put the clutch in when I come to a stop, and it requires somewhat different technique when starting on a hill. That's the way I feel about shooting Black Powder. It requires a special set of skills, but there is nothing 'holy' about it. I'm sorry if I've annoyed you, but in case you haven't noticed, we're here to have fun. If you can't joke around a bit, then that's just sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Monger Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 I enjoy shooting BP and smokeless both. Having the guns prepped for the propelent being used and using components in the ammo that work together allows the firearms to function ether way. Only difference is the smoke, smell and flames. What I can't figure out is why some folks hate Pyrodex. It is much easier to get where I live than "real black". Produces the same smoke, flames, smell, heat and fouling and has the same cleaning requirements as BP. I do use Goex also but much more Pyrodex. It's simple, drive 400 miles for Goex or 8 miles for Pyrodex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 If distance is a problem, buy a bunch at a time and pay the hazmat fee. If you're lucky, the shipment from out of state will not collect sales tax so the total price may be even less than local bought. A buddy in Iowa orders Grafs Reenactor by the case from Grafs in Missouri and is not charged sales tax. If he ordered BlackMZ from Sportsman Warehouse, they would charge him sales tax as they have a store in that state. On the other hand, I can stop in at Grafs the day we go grocery shopping and buy powder but have to pay sales tax. But I order BlackMZ from Sportsman Warehouse and pay no sales tax. https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501 Right now they are offering free shipping on orders over $75. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 6 hours ago, JohnHenryQuick said: I'm sorry if I've annoyed you, but in case you haven't noticed, we're here to have fun. If you can't joke around a bit, then that's just sad. Regarding the 'holy black ' thing, sorry I sounded off and you took it personally. I really did not mean it that way. It's just a pet peeve of mine and you reminded me of it. I'm sure if we possied up together you would see that nobody on the posse jokes around and takes it less seriously than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 8 hours ago, Warden Callaway said: I've shoot holy black for many years in muzzle loading rifles, cap pistols, "buffalo" guns. I've used it some in cowboy action shooting - mostly in shotgun. I shot out about 5 lbs of Pyrodex that had accumulated over the years. And I just found another pound in my powder cupboard yesterday. I'll probably use it up in shotgun loads. But when I found BlackMZ at Sportsman Warehouse at such an attractive price, it was too good to pass up. Also, about 2/3 charge more than equal real black power and still has plenty of smoke. I'm assembling pistols and rifle in 44WCF. I'm still waiting on the second Smoke Wagon. When it ever gets here, I will probably load up some real black just for nostalgia. Warden, I just got home here I could watch the video - great work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 3 hours ago, Lead Monger said: I enjoy shooting BP and smokeless both. Having the guns prepped for the propelent being used and using components in the ammo that work together allows the firearms to function ether way. Only difference is the smoke, smell and flames. What I can't figure out is why some folks hate Pyrodex. It is much easier to get where I live than "real black". Produces the same smoke, flames, smell, heat and fouling and has the same cleaning requirements as BP. I do use Goex also but much more Pyrodex. It's simple, drive 400 miles for Goex or 8 miles for Pyrodex. Lead, Ya gots ta do what ya gots ta do. I don't think anyone hates Pyrodex, but in my limited experience with it, it had very hard fouling and seems to be even more corrosive than the real thing. Maybe I'm not using it right, but in any case, if you're happy with it, then who cares what others think, eh? I should point out that almost all of the bulk dealers in real black powder will ship to the lower 48 for a reasonable fee, but I haven't a clue about Alaska. I have the fortune of being 90 minutes away from one and I buy it in 25 lbs. bags. It's by far the cheapest way to go, but you have to have 25 cans to pour it into once you break the seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 11 minutes ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said: Regarding the 'holy black ' thing, sorry I sounded off and you took it personally. I really did not mean it that way. It's just a pet peeve of mine and you reminded me of it. I'm sure if we possied up together you would see that nobody on the posse jokes around and takes it less seriously than me. Sir, thank you for that post. I was too quick to assume that your comment was aimed at me. Your posts are by far the most informative on the Wire and I always enjoy them and I always learn something new. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarillo Rattler Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 I really started enjoying my SASS shooting when: I reloaded my ammo; then I reloaded with BP subs; then I reloaded with BP (Thanks to Buffalo Brady!!); then I cast my Big Lube Bullets and sized with lube I brewed; then a Pard hollered "Too much Powder". Just Sayin' Amarillo Rattler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Rock, SASS #44055 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 4 hours ago, Amarillo Rattler said: I really started enjoying my SASS shooting when: ...then a Pard hollered "Too much Powder". Only too much powder if the bullet won't seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Is there anything else better than FIRE AND SMOKE? Subs are ok but I prefer the real stuff, IMO. Let's shoot!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 On 5/24/2017 at 7:30 AM, JohnHenryQuick said: Spare me the sour grapes - it's about having fun and if you don't like it, then don't do it. Amen ! That Exactly why I Shoot APP ! Just Sayin. Rooster . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 12 hours ago, I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 said: Is there anything else better than FIRE AND SMOKE? Subs are ok but I prefer the real stuff, IMO. Let's shoot!!!!!!! Nope, as the ole' song goes "Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing Baby...Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing" Who was that?? Marvin Gay and Tammy Terrell?? I can't remember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 On 5/24/2017 at 9:43 AM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said: My thinking was, we in the Black Powder fraternity choose to shoot this way, not because it is easy, but because it is hard. Amen to that! I expect to shoot BP sometime in the future after I get my feet wet with regular CAS. Actually, the first Pre-1900 revolver I saw in a Gun Shop, once I decided to shoot CAS, was a Uberti replica of the Remington Model 1858 in SS, which was before I knew anything about BP revolvers. I shoot on the same Posse as Amarillo Rattler, and I have watched him load his own BP ammo and I will tell those who have not seen it done, this is not for the faint of heart. It is an exacting, and time consuming process. I've taken many a picture and video of Amarillo shooting BP just to catch the "fire" coming out of the barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet James Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 I love the fire and smoke of the REAL STUFF I say shoot what ever suits you best.The more pards shooting = more fun!!!! RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 There is a danger to your competitive nature shooting black. One of our stages is shot in an enclosed building with the open side to the targets. On an overcast day I can shoot that stage and never do well. The shade is dark enough that I can see my own fire and tend to watch the fire rather than the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Noz said: I'm old, I hit the wrong key and double tapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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