Shooting brass 12 ga BP ?

[Graywolf Tate]

Warden, I prime mine using the Lee auto-prime II and Federal primers on the press and have not had any problems. Perhaps an issue with the antique capper?

[Warden Callaway]

Warden, I prime mine using the Lee auto-prime II and Federal primers on the press and have not had any problems. Perhaps an issue with the antique capper?

 

The old tool was designed and likely made in the era of brass hulls and pistol primers. It certainly does not have the leverage power of a press. In any case, it won't be much of an effort to give the hulls a turn on the primer pocket uniformer reamer. That will tell me if the pockets are out of spec or my priming tool is inadequate.

 

I have used to tool to load hundreds of plastic hulls with 209 primers and it works fine.

[Major Art Tillery]

Would those wads be the short red CB1138's?

Yes those are the ones pard.

[Warden Callaway]

I just loaded up 25 with BlackMZ. I found that a 10 gauge plastic cup wad BPI PT1044 falls nicely into the hull and doesn't rattle around. The cups are made for 1-3/8 to 2 oz shot but I just put 1 oz shot and a unique filler to be diclosed later - if it works. 10 gauge top card fits nice and snug.

[Deadeye George]

Well, after reading all the above, I am taking bits of information from several folks and I THINK I have come up with a plan. Please chime in if I misunderstood something and/or am going ass backwards with my thinking.

 

I will start using the Magtech brass 12g cases loaded with my Alliant BlackMZ powder. I'll load the following in order;

 

powder charge

one 1/8" Nitro card

two 1/2" fiber cushion wads

one plastic shot cup cut from a pink CB1100 plastic wad

one ounce of shot

one over shot card

A Bead of Duco cement if I can find it, if not I'll use silicone caulk.

 

If this produces an undesirable shot pattern, I'll look into using just the wads without the plastic shot cup but using the plastic shot cup sounds promising.

 

I read elsewhere that a side benefit of crimping the brass cases makes nice curved edges which easily slide into the chamber rather than trying to quickly align those nice crisp brass edges into the chambers. I can't rationalize spending approximately $70 for the RCBS die just for it's crimping feature so will continue searching for something that will roll crimp a brass case.

 

I just watched another nice video from the English fellow, Mike Moore, where he cuts his own shells and loads them just like the brass cases for those times where we encounter a "lost brass" match but still want to show up with some stylish shells! This video is well worth a look.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Deadeye George

[Deadeye George]

I was doing shopping this morning and found MidwayUSA has RCBS 12 gauge dies and shell holder on sale.

 

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/296286/rcbs-cowboy-brass-shotshell-die-12-gauge

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/214811/rcbs-cowboy-shellholder-12-gauge-brass-case

Warden, if you are planning on ordering the RCBS die set keep in mind that the 12g shell holder is included with the RCBS die set, so don't order it separately.

[Warden Callaway]

Warden, if you are planning on ordering the RCBS die set keep in mind that the 12g shell holder is included with the RCBS die set, so don't order it separately.

I'm not planning to buy either. I just posted in case someone else was thinking of buying one. Also note that the RCBS rebate applies to buying the die set. They pay off well. Save even more.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

The 10 gauge Winchester hulls I have are from the 1930s from the headstamp. I primed the first 12 gauge Magteck brass last evening and maybe 2 out of 10 primed as I expected. The pockets seem tight and or shallow on many. I was using my antique capper. I have a primer pocket reamer. I'll give the pockets a going over before the next loading.

 

When you say sizing them with Lee Loader and plastic mallet to size hulls, you're talking about the old manual kit they haven't made in many years? Or the Loadall machine?

Yes, Sir; the old manual kit. I pick them up every chance I get.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

I believe I will order the RCBS, for the roll crimp option it has available. I roll crimp before I install the column in the shells. My roll gauge is the 3/4" wooden dowel. If I can get the dowel in the case mouth, I can slide the cards in also.

 

Several years ago at a Local Gun Show I bought for $5.00 a 12 ga. chamber reamer. I use this to chamfer the inside of the case mouths of new cases. Works very well for this application. Takes any rough edge or burr from the inside. Just a couple of turns is enough, and does the job very nicely.

New Magtech cases need some TLC, prior to the first loading.

 

I have two new boxes of 12 ga. I must prep this Summer. This will give me 200 12 ga brass shells.

 

I also load 16 ga., and have 200 16 ga brass shells.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223

[Warden Callaway]

I had a Lee 20 gauge kit give to me. I can't complain. Just wish it was a 10 or 12 gauge.

 

The sale plus rebate make the RCBS kit more within reach but I don't have a press that it would fit in.

 

In searching youtube, I find a number of videos showing conversion to 209 primers. I don't see a reason to convert other than wanting to use a shotgun press to deprime and prime.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

The 209 primer in the brass shell, lets one shoot Smokeless more efficiently. With the pistol primer and smokeless, the spark or ignition is not enough to get the powder at a proper burn rate. I load both BP & Smokeless in 16 ga. The shells I use for Smokless have 209 primer pockets.

 

BP is easier to ignite than smokeless. I use CCI Mag large pistol primers for my Brass shell reloading. They give the greatest amount of fire & spark.

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

This is a Herters crimp starter.

Long discontinued but,,,

 

It can be used for crimping brass shotshells. (All gages10, 12, 16 etc.)

 

If you have an old Herters' press.

You have to take out the insert from the press to use this, the catch is that it is fine thread & isn't the same thread as RCBS.

 

It's just a cone-in. Set the depth that gives you a good crimp. (yes a lock-ring would be nice)

 

You might be able to have one made. (to fit modern RCBS thread)

 

 

 

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/ebp101/20160528_193300_zpswlv27no9.jpg

 

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/ebp101/20160528_193246_zps0o47ik8s.jpg

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/ebp101/20160528_193314_zpsbve1c54a.jpg

 

 

Next is a better way if you can find one or have one made.

 

Yep, back in the 1962 Handloaders Digest they gave plans for a shotshell crimper.

 

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/ebp101/20160528_193505_zpss0ns790t.jpg

 

(blame Windows 10 for not letting PB turn my pic)

 

 

Also a sizer was listed:

 

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo92/ebp101/20160528_193635_zps4feymrem.jpg

Edited June 11, 2016 by Earl Brasse, SASS #3562

[Warden Callaway]

I shot some of my loads with new Magteck brass and compared the fired and new hull and found no expantion of the hulls. The 10 gauge plastic cup and top card worked just fine.

[The Polish Pistolero]

I shot some of my loads with new Magteck brass and compared the fired and new hull and found no expantion of the hulls. The 10 gauge plastic cup and top card worked just fine.

I have used the 10 gauge plastic wads also, my only complaint was the residue in the barrel afterwards! Perhaps since I use APP, with a very light charge load, is why I don't blow a hole in my pattern!

 

Another thing about Magtec brass, is I have found a few with the flash hole off center and have broke the de-priming pin on the RCBS die tool! Now, all my brass are opened up and aligned!

 

As for the other pards comment about the "C" clips slipping and not keeping the de-priming held securely, I used some collet rings that have a set screw on the shaft! Problem solved! Found them at True Value for about .50 cents each, so not a big investment!

[Warden Callaway]

I had problems seating primers in new brass using my antique tool. I re-cut the primer pockets and all needed a litte bit of deeping. The primers seated as expected after being deepened and cleaned.

 

I reloaded my 25 hulls this morning and shot a video of my process. It may be a couple of days before I get it edited and uploaded.

 

I have 11 gauge nitro and cushion wads that I will try.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

After a few re-loadings you will get some expansion just above the case head. First indication will be cases that are sticking on extraction. I use the MEC Super-Sizer and re-size this base area, same as you would do with a plastic case base.

If you do not, then you must have a very good chamber in your piece.

[Graywolf Tate]

Collet rings with set screws to replace the clips. A very elegant and easy fix. I like it

[Deadeye George]

In my research I learned of the problems Magtech was having with getting their primer pockets centered but THOUGHT it was years ago and they got the problem fixed. Am I hearing that the problem still exists even with brand new cases?

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

After The problem I had in the past I take no chances. I prep all new cases. Now I find flash holes undersize & pockets that are tight and undersize.

I use the Lyman hand flash hole tool & the Lyman hand pocket reamer. With the flash hole reamer you can also de-burr the inside of the flash hole.

Works for me.

[RagingThunder]

What a great Thread! Thanks everyone for all the great info. This is quickly becoming the go to thread for Brass BP loading.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

Just remember, Magtech Brass Shells work best with Black Powder. When you starting loading Smokeless, you can have a different outcome. Unless you use 209 primers, and modify the case primer pocket.

The old Alcan brass shells and the Military Remington and Winchester brass shells used 209 primers, not Large pistol primers.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Just remember, Magtech Brass Shells work best with Black Powder. When you starting loading Smokeless, you can have a different outcome. Unless you use 209 primers, and modify the case primer pocket.

The old Alcan brass shells and the Military Remington and Winchester brass shells used 209 primers, not Large pistol primers.

 

I don't know if there were Alcans that used 209's, but I have a lot of Alcans that all use "Remington Size" primers, which look like 209's but are a tiny bit smaller. A 209 will not fit (unless the pockets are opened up). I found some old CCI "No. 157" primers which work in the Alcans.

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

 

I don't know if there were Alcans that used 209's, but I have a lot of Alcans that all use "Remington Size" primers, which look like 209's but are a tiny bit smaller. A 209 will not fit (unless the pockets are opened up). I found some old CCI "No. 157" primers which work in the Alcans.

 

 

Yes, my box of Alcan / Fiocchi says primer type *57 .

 

57, 157, are same size, both slightly smaller than 109/209.

 

I haven't seen any brass Alcans' that started as 209s', but many most likely ended up that way after the 57/157 ran out.

 

Some still turn up once in awhile, sort of like finding new brass Alcans & wads.

[Deadeye George]

Well, all my goodies are on order but not due in until June 6 so now I wait, I hate waiting!

 

In the meantime I am planning on looking around locally for some of this Duco cement (Is this just model airplane glue, it sounds familiar?) but before I do I want to ask a question from the experienced loaders.........

 

I'm guessing that where the glue affixed the overshot card, there would be some crusty, burnt residue after shooting. For those who tried different adhesives; Duco, Elmers, silicone, etc, did you find one easier to get off than others? Not a big deal but if one has to be scraped and scrubbed off while another leaves no trace, I would buy the one that leaves no trace.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Deadeye George

[Warden Callaway]

I've used Duco, Elmers and a water glass that was made for gluing gaskets in furnaces. None have left any of the adhesives behind on firing. You will soot.

[John Boy]

Been using hot glue for years - perfect seal & zero bore issues

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Anybody tried a 12Ga plastic wad cut down to be just a shot cup on top of the fiber compression wad?? Good?? Bad??

 

Coffinmaker

[Major Art Tillery]

Anybody tried a 12Ga plastic wad cut down to be just a shot cup on top of the fiber compression wad?? Good?? Bad??

 

Coffinmaker

I have tried that, it worked just fine. Sure was better then dumping shot right on just the fiber wad (blew hole in shot pattern. I just went to the full platic wads for simplicity... was easier then cutting the shot cups off.

 

Major Art Tillery

[The Shoer 27979]

Anybody tried a 12Ga plastic wad cut down to be just a shot cup on top of the fiber compression wad?? Good?? Bad??

 

Coffinmaker I do works better then blowing a hole in your shot, I was loading plastic for my son and his 87 he hit everything but my brass shells would not hit a thing

 

 

I have tried that, it worked just fine. Sure was better then dumping shot right on just the fiber wad (blew hole in shot pattern. I just went to the full platic wads for simplicity... was easier then cutting the shot cups off.

 

Major Art Tillery Have to try the whole wad now

 

 

I load my Brass shells totally different then everybody else here, a friend of mine made me a deprimeing tool I also prime and reload on an old Texan reloading press, drop my powder overpowder card, plastic wad (for now looking at alternatives) shot, then I press in a 10 gauge overpowder card

Edited May 31, 2016 by The Shoer 27979

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

I use the whole plastic wad. I do not trim off the base. This sits on top of the 1/2" cushion wad, not compressed. This gives me extra length of the column and positions the shot & OSC with in an 1/8" from the top of the case mouth. With the OSC in place I fill the void with Elmer's glue, till it is domed, ( almost runs over the case side but does not). When dried the Elmer's concaves in the mouth and provides a very tight seal.And dries to a very hard plastic type plug. When fired it leaves no deposit or residue in the barrel. And will not blow a hole in the shot pattern.

I have the total column length, 1/8" - 3/16" to the top of the Case Mouth.

 

I use the short wad

 

For Y'all Blasters that load 70 - 80 grains of Black this will not work, cut the base of the wad off. You will exceed the column length if you leave it on.

 

For me I use 45- 50 grains, and it gets the job done. A 3.1 CC Lee scoop .

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I use a 1/8" nitro overpowder card, a full red wad, and 1 1/8 oz of shot (some of the targets around here are a little ornery). The wad is a bit loose in the hull but the nitro card seals it. I used waterglass to seal the overshot card for years until the large jar I had dried up. Now for years use Elmers wood glue. The only time I ever had a wad let go was with the waterglass, and the shell had been loaded for several months. The waterglass sort of dries up and gets brittle. After that, if any hulls went a few months without being shot, I'd add more waterglass on top before the match.

[Warden Callaway]

We stopped in at Grafs Reloading this morning on our grocery getting trip and bought 25 more Magtech hulls. I figured the primer pockets would be out of wack and they were. Not only a bit shallow, but tight in diameter. I have a pocket reamer and ran them all with it. The pockets were still tight and I broke my antique primer seating tool trying to seat a primer. With time running short to get ammoed up for the 3-day match this weekend, I tried seating the primers on my MEC 600 set up for 10 gauge. It worked perfectly. I just had to thumb start the primers.

[Warden Callaway]

I shot a 10 stage match over the past weekend with my brass hulls loaded with BlackMZ, 10 gauge plastic cup and 1 oz shot. I shot 45 shells in total with no missfires or problems of any kind. There were some knockdowns but were set easy.

 

The TO commented that the pattern was extremely tight on my loads. Odd because the CZ-USA has cylinder bores. I've 5 left loaded. I may pattern a few and compare with loads with fiber wads.

 

I took a squirt bottle (like a ketchup bottle you'd find in a cafe) filled with water and after each stage I'd dampen the bores with water and pull a snake through one time. Every time the bores on the CZ-USA looked like mirrors. I'm sure I could have shot each day's match without moping the bores but it only took a minute.

 

There were 6 shotgun targets on the last stage and I didn't bother cleaning the gun until I got home. I ran really warm water through the bores and 90% of the black just washed out. I pushed a wad of paper towel through one pass. Then a paper patch with Bore Butter.

[Volga Vigilante]

Question with a slight twist. I'm loading Magtech brass 410 for my youngest buckaroo. 1.9 cc 2f app nitro card, fiber wad, 1/2 Oz shot, osc and glue. When cleaning we are getting lead out of the barrels. Am I doing something wrong?

[The Polish Pistolero]

I shot a 10 stage match over the past weekend with my brass hulls loaded with BlackMZ, 10 gauge plastic cup and 1 oz shot. I shot 45 shells in total with no missfires or problems of any kind. There were some knockdowns but were set easy.

 

The TO commented that the pattern was extremely tight on my loads. Odd because the CZ-USA has cylinder bores. I've 5 left loaded. I may pattern a few and compare with loads with fiber wads.

 

I took a squirt bottle (like a ketchup bottle you'd find in a cafe) filled with water and after each stage I'd dampen the bores with water and pull a snake through one time. Every time the bores on the CZ-USA looked like mirrors. I'm sure I could have shot each day's match without moping the bores but it only took a minute.

 

There were 6 shotgun targets on the last stage and I didn't bother cleaning the gun until I got home. I ran really warm water through the bores and 90% of the black just washed out. I pushed a wad of paper towel through one pass. Then a paper patch with Bore Butter.

Black MZ is made by APP for Alliant! If you were to talk to either of their tech lines, mopping and using lube is discouraged! When I have used the 10 gauge wads, I get a real goo in the barrels. When I get home, I spray all the guns down with Simple Green or Windex with out ammonia in the formula. (I did use ammonia once, and it took spots of bluing off my Ruger's!) Afterwards I spray everything down with WD-40 (for what WD-40 is designed for) to disperse any water in the Simple Green or Windex! Then swab out with Hoppe's, and wipe down. Everything comes out like new!

 

Oh, by the way, after you shoot, and you retrieve your brass, drop it in a container of vinegar and water! Then tumble like normal!