Kid Rich Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 How many people (spotters) are required to call a procedural on a shooter? kR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Just one-- LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 The TO polls spotters for input, but makes the call himself. TO can choose to call a P without a single spotter calling a P or can ignore all 3 spotters calling a P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 The TO polls spotters for input, but makes the call himself. TO can choose to call a P without a single spotter calling a P or can ignore all 3 spotters calling a P. Yep J R-E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 ` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 How many people (spotters) are required to call a procedural on a shooter? kR Did ya have a bad weekend? Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Rich Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 Did ya have a bad weekend? Fillmore No jest curious as I have asked before and gotten several different answers. I looked in the rules but didn't find it. I figured PWB would tell me where to look it up. Only way to have a bad weekend is to end up with holes in yer boots. Thanks fer all the replies. kR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 No jest curious as I have asked before and gotten several different answers. I looked in the rules but didn't find it. I figured PWB would tell me where to look it up. Only way to have a bad weekend is to end up with holes in yer boots. Thanks fer all the replies. kR I'ma thunkin' ya had a hole in yore boots and got "P" ed on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I just got one of 'em this past weekend.. Dang good thing ya can't get 2 in one stage Shot the rifle sequence wrong and then the shotgun sequence on the same stage.. after the rifle... i was thinkin'.. What the heck did I do on the rifle sequence Sure enough.. got the shotgun wrong too.. Rance Thinkin' it's heck ta have them ol' brain farts all the time.. Gotta keep my head in the game... the rifle sequence was already done and gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Rance....I been there. Very first Wild Bunch stage I ever shot was this year....shot the pistol fine and then grabbed my rifle and shot six shots and six targets fell. Then I picked up my Model 12 and went to shoot the shotgun targets and don'tcha know all six shotgun targets were already knocked down....yep I Ped on maself that stage fer shore. Kajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Rance....I been there. Very first Wild Bunch stage I ever shot was this year....shot the pistol fine and then grabbed my rifle and shot six shots and six targets fell. Then I picked up my Model 12 and went to shoot the shotgun targets and don'tcha know all six shotgun targets were already knocked down....yep I Ped on maself that stage fer shore. Kajun My thinkin' only Kraz... I'm thinkin' ya got off lucky... I'm thinkin' ya should have got 6 misses on the rifle targets .. and then shot where the shotgun targets should have been... that would have been 30 seconds penalty fer yer 6 misses instead of 10 seconds fer a procedual.. Rance Just my thinkin'... Edit: This oughta' start somethin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Rance....I got my P and all the misses I deserved...no doubt. My point was that I've been in a real stinker performance on a stage too..real brain fade for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Rance....I got my P and all the misses I deserved...no doubt. My point was that I've been in a real stinker performance on a stage too..real brain fade for sure. Got it... Rance Thinkin' maybe we can start a club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 REF: RO1 pp. 7-9 I inquired about this several years ago. The only reference to procedurals on pages 7-9 In the RO1 manual is on page 7. L) It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses. The Timer Operator should consider input from the Spotters regarding procedurals and/or safety violations as well as personal observations during the stage. Final determination regarding assessment of penalties is made by the Timer Operator. But nowhere does it say that a TO can call a procedural by himself.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Add me to it, at The Outlaw Trail I got a p first in many years. I shot the wrong set of pistol targets first was so use to being able to shoot targets in any order during this match or starting on either end but this specified you had to start with these targets first. My plan going in the the stage was to start there but when I drew my revolver the others looked better. Oh well it happens as they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 ` ` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Rules must have changed. I always thought the RO was responsible to report penalties to the timekeeper and it is his call except for misses. So in the extreme after getting spotters inputs, the RO can call a P even tho zero spotters saw it. He better be 100% confident in his call if he does it. Might be time to change spotters. He can also make the call for a P even if only one spotter saw a P. He can also over ride a P that 2 or 3 spotters saw. Again he better be 100% cetain the spotters were wrong. Them were the rules I was taught, looks like maybe it were wrong. In cases where the RO over ruled the spotters he better explain his actions to all and include what he saw no one else saw. If the shooter disagrees, he has a process to appeal the ROs decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I inquired about this several years ago. The only reference to procedurals on pages 7-9 In the RO1 manual is on page 7. L) It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses. The Timer Operator should consider input from the Spotters regarding procedurals and/or safety violations as well as personal observations during the stage. Final determination regarding assessment of penalties is made by the Timer Operator. But nowhere does it say that a TO can call a procedural by himself.. Yes it does... Final determination regarding assessment of penalties is made by the Timer Operator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 ` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 You stopped reading too soon...or simply missed THAT part. I can read. Where does it say "the timer operator can call a procedural by himself"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I really wish folks would write TO or CRO instead of RO when they are talking about the Timer Operator! The following is from p. 6 of the ROI. "All match positions described below are Range Officers. The Timer Operator is the Chief Range Officer during shooting stage operations." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I can read. Where does it say "the timer operator can call a procedural by himself"? " It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses. The Timer Operator should consider input from the Spotters regarding procedurals and/or safety violations as well as personal observations during the stage. Final determination regarding assessment of penalties is made by the Timer Operator." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Would you care to edit your post one more time?? ...or did someone hack your account?? Done, it hard for old folks to type on a cell phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I can read. Where does it say "the timer operator can call a procedural by himself"? as well as personal observations during the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 " It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses. The Timer Operator should consider input from the Spotters regarding procedurals and/or safety violations as well as personal observations during the stage. Final determination regarding assessment of penalties is made by the Timer Operator." "The Timer Operator should consider input from the Spotters regarding procedurals". What it says is that "final determination regarding assessment of penalties is made by the timer operator". What is doesn't say is making the call himself without the input of the spotters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 "The Timer Operator should consider input from the Spotters regarding procedurals". What it says is that "final determination regarding assessment of penalties is made by the timer operator". What is doesn't say is making the call himself without the input of the spotters. I think you are reading too much into it. What it doesn't say is the Timer Operator cannot make the call on his/her own. Nor does it say the Timer Operator MUST have input from the spotters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I think you are reading too much into it. What it doesn't say is the Timer Operator cannot make the call on his/her own. This is a really poorly written rule that has caused a lot of confusion and consternation which is why the OP asked for clarification in the first place. It is contradictory in that it asks for spotter input on misses procedurals and safety violations and then attempts to over-ride them and give the authority to one person with one set of eyes from only one perspective when in another section of pages 7-9 in the RO1 manual it says that the function of the TO is to be watching the timer and not looking for misses, procedurals, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 So what is your solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 So what is your solution? The solution is to have the rule written for consistency and fairness. If we have three spotters (located at different positions and angles for a reason) and they are polled by the TO for misses, procedurals, safety violations, etc. the function of the TO is to discuss any inconsistencies in what the spotters reported until a consensus is reached among them (whether all 3 spotters saw it or didn't see it, or 2 to 1, or 1 to 2) majority rules. It should not be the function of the TO to over-rule the consensus but only to report the findings of the spotters and the time to the scorer. Why should one person have the authority to make a judgement call by theirself that no one else saw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 The solution is to have the rule written for consistency and fairness. If we have three spotters (located at different positions and angles for a reason) and they are polled by the TO for misses, procedurals, safety violations, etc. the function of the TO is to discuss any inconsistencies in what the spotters reported until a consensus is reached among them (whether all 3 spotters saw it or didn't see it, or 2 to 1, or 1 to 2) majority rules. It should not be the function of the TO to over-rule the consensus but only to report the findings of the spotters and the time to the scorer. Why should one person have the authority to make a judgement call by theirself that no one else saw? Thousands of shooters shooting thousands of stages, never see an issue, spotters see penalties, call them and the TO/RO agrees. Sometimes, actually rarely, however, the TO/RO is in a lot better position to see what the shooter actually did. Sometimes the spotters just do not get the stage sequence correctly. It can be a safety penalty the spotters did not see. Sometimes with sequences giving the shooter the maximum flexibility in how the stage is to be shot and the shooter does it differently than every other shooter, the spotters say P and the TO/RO says no the shooter complied with the stage instructions, just did it differently than everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Because if they are in the right place they are watching the shooter and where the gun is pointed. They are not watching the timer they are holding it and insuring that the final shot is registered on the timer. That the only time he should be looking at the timer and he can do both see the timer and the gun/shooter at the same time if they try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 The solution is to have the rule written for consistency and fairness. If we have three spotters (located at different positions and angles for a reason) and they are polled by the TO for misses, procedurals, safety violations, etc. the function of the TO is to discuss any inconsistencies in what the spotters reported until a consensus is reached among them (whether all 3 spotters saw it or didn't see it, or 2 to 1, or 1 to 2) majority rules. It should not be the function of the TO to over-rule the consensus but only to report the findings of the spotters and the time to the scorer. Why should one person have the authority to make a judgement call by theirself that no one else saw? Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 ` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I tried watching the "Timer"...ended up tripping all over myself. I usually keep my eyes on the shooter...glancing at the timer to make sure it's in a position to record shots...but... WHAT THE HECK DO I KNOW???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 There are many times that the TO is the only person that catches the P. The rule is fine as written and works just fine on the firing line. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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