Hoss Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I think it's time to stick a fork in this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 "...When there is this much discussion about a call, I always wonder could the rule be reworded to make it clear in all circumstances or is it the most comprehensive and clear in its current form?..." im with you on this one , but not being a lawyer im not sure i can contribute to the rewrite , i think there is an inherent obligation to the stage designers to provide the most stable and accessible firearm staging apparatus , but i also think it equally inherent an obligation for the shooter to maintain control of the firearm and stage it safely - even if they must sacrifice that split second that might win their match for them , there is no excuse for sloppy gun handling , as to the rewrite - wonder what a lawyer might do with all these posts - anyone ? i know you are here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Not trying to argue the point to a pulp but if I'm walking and lose my footing and when its all said and done I have badly scraped one knee and two palms on the pavement but the toes on one foot are still right side up , did I not fall because my whole body was not flat on the ground ? Did the front of the gun slip and fall ? Yes . Did the stock of the gun slip and not fall ? Yes . Had he staged his gun the way it ended up maybe (big maybe ) MD would have been ok with that . But he didn't , it fell to that position . Much like placing a shot gun round on a table during a stage and then retrieving it for use versus a shot gun round FALLING out of a gun onto the table and then being retrieved . Its not necessarily how it's sitting is the problem as much as how it got there . Apples and Oranges but ok here's one back at you, you restage a rifle on a verticle stand and you didn't quite get the butt stock all the way on, so it slips off but the front sight catches in a crack in the wall behind the stand, it keeps it from completely falling so whats the call, the butt is on the ground but the rifle didn't break the 170 and is not laying flat. all the stage instructions say is to restage safely. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Apples and Oranges but ok here's one back at you, you restage a rifle on a verticle stand and you didn't quite get the butt stock all the way on, so it slips off but the front sight catches in a crack in the wall behind the stand, it keeps it from completely falling so whats the call, the butt is on the ground but the rifle didn't break the 170 and is not laying flat. all the stage instructions say is to restage safely. KK did it slip and fall? seems it did, he got lucky it dint break the 170 and thus only a msv,,,, imho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 did it slip and fall? seems it did, he got lucky it dint break the 170 and thus only a msv,,,, imho Really? How did it fall? How far does it have to move to have fallen? slip 6"? my point is he didn't have to put it back in the verticle stand, the instruction said restage safely, after everything was said and done it was still upright not breaking the 170, if we are going to be so picky then everytime a straight draw holster user misses his holster we better start calling it because he broke the 170, but we don't why so stricty on this one? KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 yes really, you used both terms in your OP, it slipped, and the sight kept it from completely falling off.... it slipped and it fell,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I think it's time to stick a fork in this one! Hi Hoss, I really try to let folks get the "dead horse beatings" out of their systems, if they are polite (not rude or crude) about it. KK, IMO if it slipped and moved that is the equivalent of falling. How the gun ended up (where it came to rest) is the key factor in determination of penalty. Anyone, If someone gets naughty, please use the Report feature and someone will be along eventually. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 yes really, you used both terms in your OP, it slipped, and the sight kept it from completely falling off.... it slipped and it fell,,,,, key word was keep from falling which means it didn't fall, it was stopped from falling, it never completed the act of falling. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Hi Hoss, I really try to let folks get the "dead horse beatings" out of their systems, if they are polite (not rude or crude) about it. KK, IMO if it slipped and moved that is the equivalent of falling. How the gun ended up (where it came to rest) is the key factor in determination of penalty. Anyone, If someone gets naughty, please use the Report feature and someone will be along eventually. Regards, Allie Mo So Allie, to use somebody else's example you slipped but caught yourself by grabbing a rail, you still concider that falling, to me you only slipped but didn't fall. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So Allie, to use somebody else's example you slipped but caught yourself by grabbing a rail, you still concider that falling, to me you only slipped but didn't fall. KK KK, To me, I fell, just not all of the way to the ground. Regards, AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Ok everybody I understand where you coming from and I understand your points but until the ROC clarifies or changes the wording it's the way I see it, but thanks for the debate a lot of opinated people to include men, but that makes for a great debate. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 so, if you fell off a cliff, but grabbed a branch half way down, you din't really fall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 HJ, I remember that prop it was a box at an able that you put your long gun in, rifle, if Iirc that help keep the lever open since gravity was pulling down on the lever. I would mind seeing more of those with maybe a cutout for the levers so that the box wasn't so wide and you can stage the gun upright pointed down which is safe to walk in front since the muzzle is down. Matter of fact it was unnatural to point the muzzles up when I started after most organizations use the muzzle down safe position.. Also all our gun carts should be muzzle down to be safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Apples and Oranges but ok here's one back at you, you restage a rifle on a verticle stand and you didn't quite get the butt stock all the way on, so it slips off but the front sight catches in a crack in the wall behind the stand, it keeps it from completely falling so whats the call, the butt is on the ground but the rifle didn't break the 170 and is not laying flat. all the stage instructions say is to restage safely. KK Your first response was agree to disagree so I didn't realize you had edited. Shooter does Not get his gun on rest properly so it fell and landed on the ground. MSV. Was that how the gun was to be staged ? No. How did it get there ? It fell. Again a shot shell that falls on the table versus one that is placed on the table. HOW did they get to thier final resting point is not apples and oranges. I will agree to disagree. PS. Had he placed the gun with butt in dirt and barrel in rack. No call. That would have met with stage instructions. PSS. I am only going by how the rule is written and my definition of what is considered fallen. IMO if the rule was not how the gun got there but condition of gun then all of this would be moot. But that would also open the door to argue that a dropped empty pistol pointing down range would have no penalty. Would everybody be ok with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 so, if you fell off a cliff, but grabbed a branch half way down, you din't really fall? that depends . . . if fall is being used as a verb or a noun. If it is being used as a verb (in the act of) it is almost always used along with a modifier such as fall down, fall off, fall out, fall through, fall short, etc. I wasn't there so I didn't see the fall (noun) where it fell to but from the OP I presume it fell short and never made it all the way to the ground (as was your example of grabbing a branch and not falling all the way to the ground) but rather it landed with the barrel resting on the prop and only the butt stock was on the ground. Regardless, the SASS rule states that it is a MSV if the rifle was empty and the lever/bolt open and the muzzle never broke the 170 which is/should be a judgement call by the spotters/TO/PM/RO/MD (unless SASS wants to implement "instant replay" like MLB, NFL, NBA has) and . . . . NO, I'm NOT a lawyer and I don't play one on TV! I am (or was) a teacher for 32 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Your first response was agree to disagree so I didn't realize you had edited. Shooter does Not get his gun on rest properly so it fell and landed on the ground. MSV. Was that how the gun was to be staged ? No. How did it get there ? It fell. Again a shot shell that falls on the table versus one that is placed on the table. HOW did they get to thier final resting point is not apples and oranges. I will agree to disagree. PS. Had he placed the gun with butt in dirt and barrel in rack. No call. That would have met with stage instructions. PSS. I am only going by how the rule is written and my definition of what is considered fallen. IMO if the rule was not how the gun got there but condition of gun then all of this would be moot. But that would also open the door to argue that a dropped empty pistol pointing down range would have no penalty. Would everybody be ok with that? Ok again appple and oranges, the example you refer too, the pistol is completely on the ground, no brainer, in this situation part of the rifle was on the prop so therefore part of it was still where it was placed, it did no break the 170 and I assumed the lever was still open, what harm what foul? Other than the barrel which was touching the dirt (no where in the books does it say that in can not touch the ground) so it needed to be checked for obstruction. For some reason everybody that wants a MSV seem to think slipping is the same as falling, it is not they are two different words with two different meanings. This is completely a judgement call not so cut and dry IMHO, if the rifle was laying flat in the dirt then it would be just like your example a no brainer call. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 so, if you fell off a cliff, but grabbed a branch half way down, you din't really fall? Fair enough, how about you walking along and your feet slip on a wet floor, but you grabbed the door handle remaining upright did you fall? No you only slipped you prevented the fall didn't you? KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 If I fart in the bathroom and 10 minutes later you enter the bathroom which still stinks........did I really pass gas? It is legal to discard a firearm on the ground.........barrel and stock......No Call PS: My personal best is 27 minutes........ask my wife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Fair enough, how about you walking along and your feet slip on a wet floor, but you grabbed the door handle remaining upright did you fall? No you only slipped you prevented the fall didn't you? KK To make it fair. You would have to say you went down on one knee. In boxing. That's a knock down. And is scored a knock down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Hanlin SASS#66204 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 If I fart in the bathroom and 10 minutes later you enter the bathroom which still stinks........did I really pass gas? It is legal to discard a firearm on the ground.........barrel and stock......No Call PS: My personal best is 27 minutes........ask my wife And that my friends is why Wyatt is on my list of who would you want to shoot with!!!! Spades H. 27 mins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 KK you miss understood my example. The point of that was to say IF the rules didn't care how a gun got to its final resting place and it was found to be safe then no call. But that IF does not apply because the rules DO care how the gun arrived to its safe condition. If the gun only slipped in the rest the barrel would not be in the dirt. It fell to the dirt. Slip and fall. The rules don't state the gun has to be flat on the ground to be considered fallen. My mother was in the hospital a few years back and the nurse forgot to raise the side rail of the bed. Shouldn't have mattered because she spent her life in a wheel chair and the possibility of her falling out of bed was nil. Well guess what , she was found with her torso on the floor and her head badly bumped. But her feet were still up on the bed. Kinda like sitting in a chair horizontally. No one could have told me at that point she didn't fall out of bed. We seem to have very different opinions of what slip and fall means and that can be fine until match time. I have never seen it called your way but there is a long list of things I haven't seen. I don't think the ROC is going any further in this discussion so it's up to the MDs to decide how thier shoot is going to handle this call. Take care and I enjoyed the civil discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 KK you miss understood my example. The point of that was to say IF the rules didn't care how a gun got to its final resting place and it was found to be safe then no call. But that IF does not apply because the rules DO care how the gun arrived to its safe condition. If the gun only slipped in the rest the barrel would not be in the dirt. It fell to the dirt. Slip and fall. The rules don't state the gun has to be flat on the ground to be considered fallen. My mother was in the hospital a few years back and the nurse forgot to raise the side rail of the bed. Shouldn't have mattered because she spent her life in a wheel chair and the possibility of her falling out of bed was nil. Well guess what , she was found with her torso on the floor and her head badly bumped. But her feet were still up on the bed. Kinda like sitting in a chair horizontally. No one could have told me at that point she didn't fall out of bed. We seem to have very different opinions of what slip and fall means and that can be fine until match time. I have never seen it called your way but there is a long list of things I haven't seen. I don't think the ROC is going any further in this discussion so it's up to the MDs to decide how thier shoot is going to handle this call. Take care and I enjoyed the civil discussion. Like wise and since the ROC doesn't want to get in on this I agree it will be up to the MD. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Spades, I hope to have the pleasure to shoot with you.............should be a hoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Fair enough, how about you walking along and your feet slip on a wet floor, but you grabbed the door handle remaining upright did you fall? No you only slipped you prevented the fall didn't you? KK almost, but if my butt hit the ground, then I fell....,, the above is only a slip, not a fall, you still ended up in the same position, but if your head hit the ground or your butt, or knee it was a fall also... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 all gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Plinkerton, SASS #41905 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 New day, New question. as instructed, "make rifle safe at the door", shooter finishes rifle string, places rifle butt on the board walk, leans muzzle against trim of doorway, action open and empty. Shooter then lets go of rifle, and moves to window to continue stage. At or about this time the muzzle slips past the trim on the door and falls to the floor, never breaking the 170, comes to rest muzzle down range, butt nearly exactly where it was staged. I see similarity from this incident and op. I have seen this happen on multiple occasions, and have seen this called dropped gun, sdq. After reviewing Buck d laws excerpt from RO1, pg 18 #3. CLEARLY, the rules call this a msv. It appears black and white in the rules. It appears to me that "slip and fall" conditions were met. no 170 violation was met. msv. NEXT SHOOTER. I will call it this way every time. Versus a sdq. And so Brother King, before you think Im all feel goody about not awarding penalties(haha) its not that at all, I just feel that the award should be the right penalty. period. and by the way, BK, I agree with you 100 percent on your previous posts, shoot within the guidelines, come what may, then shoot another one! Ned(and the view from my saddle) Oh and as a sidenote, the other post where someone asked" who would you shoot on your possee" at least, that's what I thought it said, I must say after 14 years or so of sass, I've never actually wanted to shoot anybody on the possee, wing one maybe! haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudgeBagodonuts Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Four pages of this just screams out "we need to standardize!" If we used barrels with pads at the bottom and required muzzle down, like 3 gun uses and does, exclusively for long guns, there would be no question as to whether a gun was safely put down. Not only that, we'd meet the original goal of the rule: safety. Of course, this would open up the whole issue of "action open", as the act of dropping the gun in the barrel may cause the lever gun to close if the lever hits the edge of the barrel on the way in.(sigh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 this still needs addressed!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Hi Folks, I don't remember who wrote what, except Kiowa Kid, or what exactly was written. I've written that if a rule has many pages of discussion, it may need a re-wording. However, if after those many pages, there is only one voice in disagreement with all the others, I'm not sure it needs rewording. My thought is, someone who feels it is not clear, or who can think of a better wording that will lead to uniform application, should provide us with that wording to discuss. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Hi Folks, I don't remember who wrote what, except Kiowa Kid, or what exactly was written. I've written that if a rule has many pages of discussion, it may need a re-wording. However, if after those many pages, there is only one voice in disagreement with all the others, I'm not sure it needs rewording. My thought is, someone who feels it is not clear, or who can think of a better wording that will lead to uniform application, should provide us with that wording to discuss. Regards, Allie Mo Allie I was not the only NO Call and you can not assume everybody is in agreement with MSV call, some people are afraid to get involved in a discussion on the wire, this needs to be addressed so the call is the same every where, and if I'm wrong so be it, but I will know for sure, but in my mind this a judgement call and a no harm no foul since the rifle was still supported by the prop. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 New day, New question. as instructed, "make rifle safe at the door", shooter finishes rifle string, places rifle butt on the board walk, leans muzzle against trim of doorway, action open and empty. Shooter then lets go of rifle, and moves to window to continue stage. At or about this time the muzzle slips past the trim on the door and falls to the floor, never breaking the 170, comes to rest muzzle down range, butt nearly exactly where it was staged. I see similarity from this incident and op. I have seen this happen on multiple occasions, and have seen this called dropped gun, sdq. After reviewing Buck d laws excerpt from RO1, pg 18 #3. CLEARLY, the rules call this a msv. It appears black and white in the rules. It appears to me that "slip and fall" conditions were met. no 170 violation was met. msv. NEXT SHOOTER. I will call it this way every time. Versus a sdq. And so Brother King, before you think Im all feel goody about not awarding penalties(haha) its not that at all, I just feel that the award should be the right penalty. period. and by the way, BK, I agree with you 100 percent on your previous posts, shoot within the guidelines, come what may, then shoot another one! Ned(and the view from my saddle) Oh and as a sidenote, the other post where someone asked" who would you shoot on your possee" at least, that's what I thought it said, I must say after 14 years or so of sass, I've never actually wanted to shoot anybody on the possee, wing one maybe! haha should have been a MSV if empty and didn't break the 170 and I have heard it called a SDQ at a local club I would have corrected it but I wasn't present only heard after the fact. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Allie I was not the only NO Call and you can not assume everybody is in agreement with MSV call, some people are afraid to get involved in a discussion on the wire, this needs to be addressed so the call is the same every where, and if I'm wrong so be it, but I will know for sure, but in my mind this a judgement call and a no harm no foul since the rifle was still supported by the prop. KK Okay, I admitted I don't remember who wrote what. How about a potential rewrite? If it is good, maybe it can get folks to a consensus or uniform application of the rule. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I see a problem...but I don't have an answer...except I think that Creeker's thread should be taken into consideration. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 fall fôl/ verb verb: fall; 3rd person present: falls; past tense: fell; gerund or present participle: falling; past participle: fallen 1. move downward, typically rapidly and freely without control, from a higher to a lower level. "bombs could be seen falling from the planes" synonyms: drop, descend, come down, go down; More plummet, plunge, sink, dive, tumble; cascade "bombs began to fall" antonyms: rise become detached accidentally and drop to the ground. "my sunglasses fell off and broke on the pavement" hang down. "hair that was allowed to fall to the shoulders" (of land) slope downward; drop away. "the land fell away in a steep bank" synonyms: slope down, slope, slant down, go down, drop, drop away, descend, dip, sink, plunge More "the ground here falls away abruptly" (of a river) flow or discharge itself into. (of someone's eyes or glance) be directed downward. (of someone's face) show dismay or disappointment by appearing to sag or droop. "her face fell as she thought about her life with George" occur, arrive, or become apparent as if by dropping suddenly. "when night fell we managed to crawl back to our lines" synonyms: occur, take place, happen, come about; More arise; literarycome to pass "Easter fell on April 11th" come, arrive, appear, arise, materialize "night fell" 2. (of a person) lose one's balance and collapse. "she fell down at school today" synonyms: topple over, tumble over, keel over, fall down/over, go head over heels, go headlong, collapse, take a spill, pitch forward; More trip, stumble, slip; informalcome a cropper "he tripped and fell" antonyms: get up throw oneself down, typically in order to worship or implore someone. "they fell on their knees, rendering thanks to God" (of a tree, building, or other structure) collapse to the ground. "the house looked as if it were going to fall down at any moment" synonyms: collapse, cave in, crash in, fall down; More give way, crumble, disintegrate "the roof fell in" (of a building or place) be captured or defeated. "their mountain strongholds fell to enemy attack" synonyms: surrender to, yield to, submit to, give in to, capitulate to, succumb to; More be taken by, be defeated by, be conquered by, be overwhelmed by "the town fell to the barbarians" antonyms: resist die in battle. "an English leader who had fallen at the hands of the Danes" synonyms: die, perish, lose one's life, be killed, be slain, be lost, meet one's death; More informalbite the dust, croak, buy it, buy the farm "those who fell in the war" antonyms: flourish archaic commit sin; yield to temptation. "it is their husband's fault if wives do fall" (of a government or leader) lose office. (in sports) lose or be eliminated from play. 3. decrease in number, amount, intensity, or quality. "in 1987 imports into Britain fell by 12 percent" synonyms: decrease, decline, diminish, fall off, drop off, lessen, dwindle; More plummet, plunge, slump, sink; depreciate, cheapen, devalue; informalgo through the floor, nosedive, take a header, crash "inflation will fall" antonyms: rise, increase find a lower level; subside or abate. "the water table in the Rift Valley fell" synonyms: subside, recede, ebb, flow back, fall away, go down, sink More "the river began to fall" antonyms: rise, flood (of a measuring instrument) show a lower reading. "the barometer had fallen a further ten points" 4. pass into a specified state. "many of the buildings fell into disrepair" synonyms: become, grow, get, turn More "she fell ill" doze off, drop off, go to sleep; informalnod off, go off, drift off, crash, conk out, go out like a light, sack out "I almost fell asleep at work" begin to do something. "he fell to musing about how it had happened" be drawn accidentally into. "you must not fall into this common error" occur at a specified time. "Mother's birthday fell on Flag Day" be classified or ordered in the way specified. "canals fall within the Minister's brief" noun noun: fall; plural noun: falls; noun: Fall 1. an act of falling or collapsing; a sudden uncontrollable descent. "his mother had a fall, hurting her leg as she alighted from a train" synonyms: tumble, trip, spill, topple, slip; More collapse; informalnosedive, header, cropper "an accidental fall" a controlled act of falling, especially as a stunt or in martial arts. Wrestling a move which pins the opponent's shoulders on the ground for a count of three. a state of hanging or drooping downward. "the fall of her hair" a downward difference in height between parts of a surface. "at the corner of the massif this fall is interrupted by other heights of considerable stature" synonyms: descent, declivity, slope, slant, incline, downgrade More "a steep fall down to the ocean" antonyms: ascent a sudden onset or arrival as if by dropping. "the fall of darkness" 2. a thing that falls or has fallen. "in October came the first thin fall of snow" a waterfall or cascade. synonyms: waterfall, cascade, cataract; More rapids, white water "rafting trips below the falls" literary a downward turn in a melody. "that strain again, it had a dying fall" the parts or petals of a flower that bend downward, especially the outer perianth segments of an iris. 3. a decrease in size, number, rate, or level; a decline. "a big fall in unemployment" synonyms: decline, falloff, drop, decrease, cut, dip, reduction, downswing; More plummet, plunge, slump; informalnosedive, crash "a fall in sales" antonyms: increase 4. a loss of office. "the fall of the government" synonyms: downfall, collapse, ruin, ruination, failure, decline, deterioration, degeneration; More destruction, overthrow, demise "the fall of the Roman Empire" surrender, capitulation, yielding, submission; defeat "the fall of the city" antonyms: increase, rise, ascent the loss of a city or fortified place during battle. "the fall of Jerusalem" a person's moral descent, typically through succumbing to temptation. the lapse of humankind into a state of sin, ascribed in traditional Jewish and Christian theology to the disobedience of Adam and Eve as described in Genesis. noun: Fall of Man; noun: the Fall synonyms: sin, wrongdoing, transgression, error, offense, lapse, fall from grace, original sin More "the fall of man" What a waste of band width, I know what fall means and none of the above is even note worthy, nice try. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 My thought is, someone who feels it is not clear, or who can think of a better wording that will lead to uniform application, should provide us with that wording to discuss. Regards, Allie Mo Post 64 proposed a better definition of dropped gun. Proposed: Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control on the firing line and come to rest at a location or position which is not a staging position. No one commented, so I take it as there was no support for a better definition of a dropped firearm. Where we seem to be with the original muzzle in dirt case, is part of gun is still on the staging platform (the butt) but muzzle is off the staging platform touching something else. We might consider drawing the line with a stage convention something like "Staged or restaged guns must be placed in contact only with the staging area described in the instructions, not contacting any other fixed object or the ground" Penalty - a P for not staging/restaging properly. Then, if stage instructions say, "stage rifle on shelf", placing the gun down with the muzzle or the butt ending up in the dirt would be a P. If they prop the gun up on the wall next to the shelf, it's a P. And if the stage instructions allow for it, the ground can be included as an appropriate staging "area" And, if they restage their shotgun and it lands on top of a fired hull or two, no call, because those are not fixed objects. Try that on for size. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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