Dropped gun or no call ?

[watab kid]

i realise the intent of the question but my initial response is someone set a really poor stage , my second is that if its a shootable stage one must take the effort to shoot it as intended and not 'drop' their guns , some are faster - some are agile - some of us need to take a little more time to do it right - or suffer the consequences ...dont want my muzzle in the dirt

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

REF: (again) post #22...that section is an integral part of the rewrite of the "Action Open" rule

(as posted under the "Synopsis of FINAL EDITS" last month).

 

5. A safe and sturdy place should be provided at each stage to position the shooter’s firearms and is mandatory to use. Whether or not they are available, it is the shooter’s responsibility to take reasonable care in putting down the gun. If the gun falls or closes, the Range Officer shall make the determination of fault: either Prop Failure or Safety Violation as appropriate.

RO1 p.21

[Madd Mike #8595]

I agree with Phantom those props should be OUTLAWED, and then gathered up and burned.

I say,put em in a CAS museum

:-)

[Lead Ringer]

 

REF: post #22 re: "...MANDATORY to use"...that implies "use as intended"...if "used" otherwise and a long gun falls and/or closes, it is on the SHOOTER, NOT the prop.

 

We've seen a few of those horse/cow cut-out props that are real PsOS...the rear slot is wide enough for the entire long gun (of ANY type) to spin while IN the rack...which can close the lever/action of a lightly-sprung rifle or even a SxS if the "saddle" insert isn't set up as it should be.

Hey PaleWolf,

I can see a problem with "Use as intended". Example Winter Range has those wall mounted vertical racks (the intention seems to be for vertical use?) Some people lay the shotgun gun horizontal on the base. Stages maybe written "make gun safe" and offer the horse/cow style device. So, people go vertical or use the cow/horse in a different way than intended , as long as the gun is safe. No problem.

So, if the gun slips a bit (muzzle contacts the ground, but doesn't break the 170 and the gun hasn't fallen completely off the prop. And what if the gun slips and the rear stock touches the ground, again no muzzle violation and the front portion of the gun is in the rack/prop? What then?

That's why I made the no call, call:) in my first post.

I'm finding this to be an interesting post!

Regards,

Ringer

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Hey PaleWolf,

I can see a problem with "Use as intended". Example Winter Range has those wall mounted vertical racks (the intention seems to be for vertical use?) Some people lay the shotgun gun horizontal on the base. Stages maybe written "make gun safe" and offer the horse/cow style device. So, people go vertical or use the cow/horse in a different way than intended , as long as the gun is safe. No problem.

So, if the gun slips a bit (muzzle contacts the ground, but doesn't break the 170 and the gun hasn't fallen completely off the prop. And what if the gun slips and the rear stock touches the ground, again no muzzle violation and the front portion of the gun is in the rack/prop? What then?

That's why I made the no call, call:) in my first post.

I'm finding this to be an interesting post!

Regards,

Ringer

+1

 

KK

[Anvil Al #59168]

I don't think anyone intended to restage it with the muzzle in the dirt.

it got that way because shooter lost control and it slipped and fell that way.

 

That's why the shooter went back and picked it up and restaged it again after the

muzzle went in the dirt.

 

Think we are taking the BOD to far at times.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Why hasn't the O.P. come back and provided a better explanation of the design of the prop?

[Lead Ringer]

I don't think anyone intended to restage it with the muzzle in the dirt.

it got that way because shooter lost control and it slipped and fell that way.

 

That's why the shooter went back and picked it up and restaged it again after the

muzzle went in the dirt.

 

Think we are taking the BOD to far at times.

I'm sure they didn't intend to stage it that way. Who would right? The question is did it violate a rule?

 

Regards,

Ringer

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

OH FCS! It's a prop... it's a gun. We know what it means.

 

If the barrel is in the dirt then you, me, we all know that something is wrong with that... there is no 'intention' that is going to make that right.

 

Lawyering everything to death and trying to trump every single call with some whacked out interpretation of 'benefit of the doubt' is beginning to make SASS a T-ball match.

 

You'll never get 10 people to agree about the benefits of any prop/ staging/ table or rack....so get over it and learn how to use it. Ever seen a poorly designed table? I have... and had it close a lever....guess what? I went back and opened it and then paid attention more closely the next time.

 

Dang, I swear some of you need to have your mommies there to make sure your booboo is kissed. There's one for ya, Allie Mo.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

OH FCS! It's a prop... it's a gun. We know what it means.

 

If the barrel is in the dirt then you, me, we all know that something is wrong with that... there is no 'intention' that is going to make that right.

 

Lawyering everything to death and trying to trump every single call with some whacked out interpretation of 'benefit of the doubt' is beginning to make SASS a T-ball match.

 

You'll never get 10 people to agree about the benefits of any prop/ staging/ table or rack....so get over it and learn how to use it. Ever seen a poorly designed table? I have... and had it close a lever....guess what? I went back and opened it and then paid attention more closely the next time.

 

Dang, I swear some of you need to have your mommies there to make sure your booboo is kissed. There's one for ya, Allie Mo.

So if you put yer long gun down on a table and you accidentally hit it so that it spins...and almost breaks the 170...how would you handle that?

 

Phantom

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

So if you put yer long gun down on a table and you accidentally hit it so that it spins...and almost breaks the 170...how would you handle that?

 

Phantom

"ALMOST" isn't a penalty... that gun didn't 'accidentally spin' by itself. Oh oh oh oh ... WAIT! What was the intention of the gun that it spun? How can we spin this rule so that the gun has to have a lawyer?

 

NOW...if it spun and broke the 170 I'd take the penalty just like when it fell and broke the 170. We gotta make everything IDIOT proof? Then we'll have a game designed by idiots for idiots....

 

EDIT: AND! If it fell off the table such that the barrel is in the dirt then I'd thank my lucky stars that it didn't break the 170/ didn't fall off the table loaded (I slipped on wet boardwalk at WR and my empty pistols didn't come out and I didn't knock a loaded rifle off the staging table.)

 

MSV...Next shooter.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

"ALMOST" isn't a penalty... that gun didn't 'accidentally spin' by itself. Oh oh oh oh ... WAIT! What was the intention of the gun that it spun? How can we spin this rule so that the gun has to have a lawyer?

 

NOW...if it spun and broke the 170 I'd take the penalty just like when it fell and broke the 170. We gotta make everything IDIOT proof? Then we'll have a game designed by idiots for idiots....

Yer a smart guy...I'm surprised that you didn't grasp the similarities of the two situations...and how it related to your previous response.

 

Oh well...but you did state things well when you said "Almost" isn't a penalty...

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Yer a smart guy...I'm surprised that you didn't grasp the similarities of the two situations...and how it related to your previous response.

 

Oh well...but you did state things well when you said "Almost" isn't a penalty...

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

HEY! Wow.... yer a smart guy... that gun didn't fall off the prop, did it?

 

Seriously, are you now gonna spin the gun on a table such that if it falls off the table but the butt hangs up on a leg of the table or maybe a fence rail with the barrel in the dirt then it didn't COMPLETELY fall?

 

YO! that's pathetic and beneath the spirit of the rules of this game.

[Lead Ringer]

What if the gun slips backward and the rear stock rests on the ground and the muzzle is still in the notch/cut out on the horse prop? And no muzzle violation occurred. I would venture to guess that wouldn't be called by the vast majority of people. But since we have a muzzle on the ground it immediately a violation?

 

Not to long ago I was at a shoot where we re-staged guns muzzle down in a prop. Saw somebody go to stage the gun and missed the little box end of the prop. Muzzle came in contact with the ground. Shooter then corrects it and moves on.

 

I must be missing something? I feel its a good discussion to have. Some folks seem to be hostile towards the discussion??

 

Just because somebody does something wrong, differently, accedently, etc. Doesn't always mean a rule was broken or safety was put at risk.

 

I'll go with what ever the RO committee says or decides:)

 

Regards,

Ringer

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

What if the gun slips backward and the rear stock rests on the ground and the muzzle is still in the notch/cut out on the horse prop? And no muzzle violation occurred. I would venture to guess that wouldn't be called by the vast majority of people. But since we have a muzzle on the ground it immediately a violation?

 

Not to long ago I was at a shoot where we re-staged guns muzzle down in a prop. Saw somebody go to stage the gun and missed the little box end of the prop. Muzzle came in contact with the ground. Shooter then corrects it and moves on.

 

I must be missing something? I feel its a good discussion to have. Some folks seem to be hostile towards the discussion??

 

Just because somebody does something wrong, differently, accedently, etc. Doesn't always mean a rule was broken or safety was put at risk.

 

I'll go with what ever the RO committee says or decides:)

 

Regards,

Ringer

 

All the ROC is going to do on this one is quote the applicable rules...apply as needed.

Without an examination of the prop itself, there is no way to determine if "prop failure" occurred...although it sounds like there was no harm; no foul in the OP situation.

 

When I mentioned "implies as intended" regarding prop use, I meant that, if a shooter chooses to use a prop imPROPerly, it doesn't mean the PROP is broken if a firearm falls and/or closes.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Just because somebody does something wrong, differently, accedently, etc. Doesn't always mean a rule was broken or safety was put at risk.

 

OK....back away from the keyboard... time for breakfast and a cup of coffee.

[Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904]

Exact thing just happened at our monthly. Rifle wound up with the muzzle down range, in the dirt, but the butt was still on the horse, lever was still open.

The stage directions said "re stage the rifle safely on horse"

While not exactly what I would do with my rifle ( I used a more traditional method when I shot it ) it was on the horse and staged in a safe manner,

No call

[Hoss]

Hmmmm, Ringer poses a good question. if the butt end fell to ground would it be a penalty, assuming no 170 was broken? I was ready to assign a MSV (assuming no prop failure) for the muzzle on the ground, but now have to think about if it was the butt end. IMO the muzzle on the ground is worse, because it could potentially get plugged with mud (not that we HAVE mud in S. Texas!) But the rule does not differentiate between the butt and muzzle.

 

I think muzzle or butt, if it came off the prop, and no 170 broken, its a MSV. If the 170 was ALMOST broken, still a MSV. if it breaks the 170 its a SDQ.

 

Assuming its not a prop failure!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

So, we are left with, all depends on which posse you're on or which shoot you go to.

 

Not good....

 

jmho....

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

When there is this much discussion about a call, I always wonder could the rule be reworded to make it clear in all circumstances or is it the most comprehensive and clear in its current form?

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

C.C. Easy solution, as I said earlier, do AWAY with those types of props, or at the least do as some have and place a sturdy table on top of them.

[Blastmaster]

Nothing was mentioned in the OP what to do with the rifle after completing the rifle portion. If it said 'make safe', then one could say, it was safe with muzzle in the dirt and the butt in the saddle, just like leaning it vertical against horse or taking it with you or even slamming it against nails-board-rocks placed on a table.. If it said 'restage ON horse', then he didn't and he earned the penalty as soon as his hand(s) left the rifle.

 

If 990 out of 1000 other shooters managed to use the horse with the cutouts w/o issues, then the prop is 'fine'.

 

CC, you are correct, depends on which posse and which shoot you attend... Not good, but I see stuff like that at practically every match I attend.

 

AM,,, you can never rewrite or reword any SASS rule to cover absolutely everything and be bullet proof against the lawyers and english majors of this sport.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Show me a place where it is OK to throw your muzzles in the dirt.

And I will show you a place I don't want to shoot.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

C.C. Easy solution, as I said earlier, do AWAY with those types of props, or at the least do as some have and place a sturdy table on top of them.

I don't have a problem with this type of prop, have actually seen very few problems with them, you just need to "look" you firearm into position....

 

we do have to take responsibility once in a while.....

 

I've seen more problems with tables where the shooter rushes past and hits a stock and spins the long gun around....

[Anvil Al #59168]

I don't have a problem with this type of prop, have actually seen very few problems with them, you just need to "look" you firearm into position....

 

we do have to take responsibility once in a while.....

 

I've seen more problems with tables where the shooter rushes past and hits a stock and spins the long gun around....

 

 

+1

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I think muzzle or butt, if it came off the prop, and no 170 broken, its a MSV. If the 170 was ALMOST broken, still a MSV. if it breaks the 170 its a SDQ.

Assuming its not a prop failure!

DING DING DING...WINNA WINNA CHICKEN DINNA.

See how simple it really is? This isn't T-Ball, folks...there is a safety reason behind forcing a competitor with a previously loaded and we H.O.P.E (remember what that means) now empty gun to re- stage it safely and without a bouquet of BS excuses all made palatable by his buddies so that his feelings don't get a booboo.

 

Cowboy up...as CC says, look it back into the prop.

[Ned Plinkerton, SASS #41905]

I been thinkin on this thread all morning. I refer back to Buck D laws quote of verse and chapter of RO1, page 18, #23. It appears to me that there lies the answer. Without further info from op, the gun was placed in rack, then ended up at rest, partially on the ground. Did not break the 170. Let us continue to assume no prop failure. MSV. Next shooter, and lets assume next shooter, during the course of fire, while he put his pistol in the holster, it ends up with muzzle in the dirt, comes to rest with grip on shooters boot. never broke 170. We all know the answer to that.

Let us remember the "intent" of all these safety rules is that no one leaves with a leak!(gunshot wound)

I am not stirring this pot, Its just, as this game gets faster and faster, which is its nature, we are going to see instances like the OP. And I would like, as I know you all would, a clear, understanding of the rule. And Also, I am not trying to impose a rule, or penalty, simply because 'something' happened. If it is a no call, great. If its a msv, great. just want to know. Thanks, Ned

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

Hmmmm, Ringer poses a good question. if the butt end fell to ground would it be a penalty, assuming no 170 was broken? I was ready to assign a MSV

 

A dropped unloaded gun is a SDQ, not an MSV. Edit: I just reread part of the rulebook. You are correct in that the book says a gun falling from a prop (without breaking the 170) is a MSV. Yet a dropped gun in the other parts of the book is a SDQ. My tired brain just keyed on the words "dropped unloaded gun."

 

 

What if the gun slips backward and the rear stock rests on the ground and the muzzle is still in the notch/cut out on the horse prop? And no muzzle violation occurred. I would venture to guess that wouldn't be called by the vast majority of people. But since we have a muzzle on the ground it immediately a violation?

 

 

 

Sorry, I'd still call a dropped gun. . Read the rules. The definition of a "dropped gun", from the RO1 Handbook definitions:

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or

position other than where it was intended.

 

 

So unless you want to try to convince me that the shooter "intended" for the muzzle (or stock) to end up in the dirt, it's a dropped gun.

 

I understand Brother King's frustration here. It's as if folks try to parse each word of the rulebook to try to avoid penalizing the shooter - as if this were a T-ball game and we don't want to offend the shooter or make him feel bad. The definition of a dropped gun that I posted is pretty clear; if it ends up where you didn't want it to, it's a dropped gun! The only thing that would nullify this call would be if the TO called it a prop failure; then it's a no call.

 

Laz

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Another fine definition which needs to be altered, as it drags in the shooter's (or stagewriters) intent. Under no circumstances should our rules or definitions depend upon intent.

 

Here's a better way to define it, perhaps, (but I think this still allows wiggle room for calling a gun restaged on the wrong prop):

 

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position not allowed by stage instructions or stage conventions.

At least it removes the requirement to read the shooter's or stage writer's mind.

Maybe this is better yet:

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control on the firing line and come to rest at a location or position which is not a staging position.

Good luck, GJ

[Lead Ringer]

 

A dropped unloaded gun is a SDQ, not an MSV.

 

 

 

Sorry, I'd still call a dropped gun. . Read the rules. The definition of a "dropped gun", from the RO1 Handbook definitions:

 

So unless you want to try to convince me that the shooter "intended" for the muzzle (or stock) to end up in the dirt, it's a dropped gun. A Stage DQ.

 

I understand Brother King's frustration here. It's as if folks try to parse each word of the rulebook to try to avoid penalizing the shooter - as if this were a T-ball game and we don't want to offend the shooter or make him feel bad. The definition of a dropped gun that I posted is pretty clear; if it ends up where you didn't want it to, it's a dropped gun! The only thing that would nullify this call would be if the TO called it a prop failure; then it's a no call.

 

Laz

I'm good with the call. Hell, if I did it, I'm sure that would be the call.

 

I do believe its worth having the conversation, what ifs and explanations. It's a valuable way go learn and understand:)

Regards,

Ringer

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

Another fine definition which needs to be altered, as it drags in the shooter's (or stagewriters) intent. Under no circumstances should our rules or definitions depend upon intent.

 

I fully agree with you on that, GJ!

 

Laz

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

A re-staged gun that 'slips and falls' isn't the same as a 'dropped gun'. Credit to Buck D Law for the specific quote:

 

It's a MSV per RO1, page 18 item 23: "... An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a “Prop Failure” call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance."

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Show me a place where it is OK to throw your muzzles in the dirt.

And I will show you a place I don't want to shoot.

AMEN!

 

My dad would turn over in his grave if one of my firearms ended up with the muzzle in the dirt and I tried to argue the point that all is well with the world.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

DING DING DING...WINNA WINNA CHICKEN DINNA.

See how simple it really is? This isn't T-Ball, folks...there is a safety reason behind forcing a competitor with a previously loaded and we H.O.P.E (remember what that means) now empty gun to re- stage it safely and without a bouquet of BS excuses all made palatable by his buddies so that his feelings don't get a booboo.

 

Cowboy up...as CC says, look it back into the prop.

Wrong you are over thinking this, no 170 was broken the rifle is still supported by the prop, No Call, bottom line is stop giving penalties when no penalty needed. We can agree to disagree.

 

PS: if Im TO and this happens I will make a no call, but being the cowboy you are and want the penalty I will not stop you from giving it to yourself.

 

 

KK

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Show me a place where it is OK to throw your muzzles in the dirt.

And I will show you a place I don't want to shoot.

Show me where it's not, nobody does it on purpose but I have never been to any shoots and I have been to a lot, that was ever in the safety brief. Common sense is not to do it, but in the op's situation what harm was done nobody got swept, the rifle was still supported by the prop, the only thing that would be required is to make sure he didn't have any obstruction in the barrel.

 

KK