PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Here's a couple that happen on occasion: NO INSTRUCTION re: how/where to restage long guns (default to Stage Convention #6) 6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. ... SHB p.21 Single bale provided for restaging. Shooter sets long gun on bale & it slides forward with the muzzle ending up on the dirt on the downrange side...butt still on the bale. What's the call? & how is it different from the "muzzle down, but still partly on the horse prop" restaging position?? What if it slid the opposite direction i.e. butt on the ground on the UPrange side, barrel leaning against the bale, but still pointed DOWNrange? Does that change ANYTHING?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 A re-staged gun that 'slips and falls' isn't the same as a 'dropped gun'. Credit to Buck D Law for the specific quote: It's a MSV per RO1, page 18 item 23: "... An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a “Prop Failure” call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance." It didn't slip AND fall, it slipped and it didn't meet the letter of the rule which is slips AND falls. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewey Cheatem, SASS #75620 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Show me a place where it is OK to throw your muzzles in the dirt. And I will show you a place I don't want to shoot. I agree Al. I'll call it a MSV all day. DC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 It didn't slip AND fall, it slipped and it didn't meet the letter of the rule which is slips AND falls. KK Seriously? Gee, I don't know... what do you call it when the barrel hits the dirt? Falling? That's what I call it... FALLING. Have you ever had a re-stage on a hay bale and had it 'slip' such that the gun FALLS one way or the other.... barrel over the front or butt off the back? Everywhere we shoot that's an MSV.... unless it SLIPS some more and FALLS to the side then it's a SDQ.....every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Seriously? Gee, I don't know... what do you call it when the barrel hits the dirt? Falling? NOPE slipping because the rest of the rifle is till on the prop and again it didn't SLIP AND FALL!!!!!!! That's what I call it... FALLING. Have you ever had a re-stage on a hay bale and had it 'slip' such that the gun FALLS one way or the other.... barrel over the front or butt off the back? Everywhere we shoot that's an MSV.... unless it SLIPS some more and FALLS to the side then it's a SDQ.....every time. Then you need to find new places to shoot? If you so dead set on giving penalties out then have the wording changed to Slip OR Fall then it meets the letter of the rule. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Either way, this MUST be clarified,,,, two posses same shoot, two different results, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Then you need to find new places to shoot? If you so dead set on giving penalties out then have the wording changed to Slip OR Fall then it meets the letter of the rule. KK Kiowa... go read the other thread...even Creeker had to concede that Happy Jack's example of the hay bale would have to be an MSV. He even had it called on himself once. I've had it called- Land Run as I recall. Panhandle Cowgirl had it slip off the dang hay bale at Winter Range first day.... It can't hit the ground if it didn't fall, brother. You'd think that a guy who flies helicopters for a living would be keenly aware of that! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Kiowa... go read the other thread...even Creeker had to concede that Happy Jack's example of the hay bale would have to be an MSV. He even had it called on himself once. I've had it called- Land Run as I recall. Panhandle Cowgirl had it slip off the dang hay bale at Winter Range first day.... It can't hit the ground if it didn't fall, brother. You'd think that a guy who flies helicopters for a living would be keenly aware of that! :lol: Just because does't make it right, since when have you become a follower? PS, my job (My job spells everything out I know what exactlly can be done what can not be done by regulations) has nothing to do with subjective decisions made on this wire, so we can agree to disagree until the ROC clarifies or changes the wording, I will make the call the way I see it. If we do get a clarification and I was wrong, I will be more than happy to admit I was wrong, it wouldn't have been the first time and most likely not my last. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Wow There I waz You know, one of them kind, that wants to win tha cadalic,,,,,,,,,,, Att all cost My intent is to win, overall, and do it clean All,of a sudden, just like in a holly weird movie, there is a egg,zader,rated loud sound Then a blast of flames, and heat begins chaseing me towards the camera, my intent is still to win, the stage design was meant to hold my long gun, but dangged nabbit, the heat encumbered prop seems to fail under my stress induced attempt to restage as intended, then the heat thermals (WIND) show their ugly force as well Just what is a shooter, timer operator, counter, posse leader or match director to do Right answer, I hope is reshoot Geese We all try to handle the circumstances given, at a given time with the best of our ability at that moment, just as soon as it is asked Then we second guess later, and perhaps improve from that last experience I just love the wire No other four em seems to offer or put up with our type of learning curve Thank you moderators, present and past From the MADD-0ne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Just because does't make it right, since when have you become a follower? KK Well, I do endeavor to follow the rules.... just sayin.... In the meantime I'll shoot on any posse you PM just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Well, I do endeavor to follow the rules.... just sayin.... In the meantime I'll shoot on any posse you PM just in case. And my friend you are always welcome to posse with me. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Kiowa... go read the other thread...even Creeker had to concede that Happy Jack It can't hit the ground if it didn't fall, brother. You'd think that a guy who flies helicopters for a living would be keenly aware of that! :lol: My second flying lesson, there is was back haggling around the hanger area, hoping to learn more from NONE paid teachers This really , and I mean really old guy, well he says "Son, if you can avoid that sudden impact with the ground, then you will do well" Never a truer fact, 40 + years later I can still see his face, backing up the intent of his comment True story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Wow There I waz You know, one of them kind, that wants to win tha cadalic,,,,,,,,,,, Att all cost My intent is to win, overall, and do it clean All,of a sudden, just like in a holly weird movie, there is a egg,zader,rated loud sound Then a blast of flames, and heat begins chaseing me towards the camera, my intent is still to win, the stage design was meant to hold my long gun, but dangged nabbit, the heat encumbered prop seems to fail under my stress induced attempt to restage as intended, then the heat thermals (WIND) show their ugly force as well Just what is a shooter, timer operator, counter, posse leader or match director to do Right answer, I hope is reshoot Geese We all try to handle the circumstances given, at a given time with the best of our ability at that moment, just as soon as it is asked Then we second guess later, and perhaps improve from that last experience I just love the wire No other four em seems to offer or put up with our type of learning curve Thank you moderators, present and past From the MADD-0ne Are you ok? KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 My second flying lesson, there is was back haggling around the hanger area, hoping to learn more from NONE paid teachers This really , and I mean really old guy, well he says "Son, if you can avoid that sudden impact with the ground, then you will do well" Never a truer fact, 40 + years later I can still see his face, backing up the intent of his comment True story I was also told, the day you think you know everything you will die the next!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Hanlin SASS#66204 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Confused!! I guess that ( MILLION DOLLAR ) HOT coffee spill many yrs ago at McDonalds changed the world forever??? I guess I'm with BK in the end on this one, as I would take the MSV and be glad it was'nt worse.. But I can see that any side here is a tenuous side to take. However if we bring ( Shooter Intent ) or ( Stage Instruction intent ) into the fray. then I would say my intent was to stage the gun off the ground, as my common sense tells me was the intent of the staging instructions.. However my common sense may not be that great... But, I'm ALMOST positive, most shooters would have the same intent as I when restaging that long gun, on that prop.. ( OFF THE GROUND, OPEN, EMPTY, AND POINTED DOWN RANGE ) But as KK said before, I could be wrong, won't be the first time, won't be the last... Spades H.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Intent should never be a part of the rule definition since there is no way after the event to determine such. As I've said lose where we all intend on shooting fast and clean so we all should be champions but Murphy and our abilities prevent that from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Kk, I thought all landings in a hello were a controlled crash, hehe, I'll be glad to posse with either or both you and BK. I still say unless a prop fail(which has not been clarified) it's a msv. Simple even if it was written safely stage, IAW with published rules that is not considered safe, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I am not going to take a side on this one, BUT, as many of you who shoot modern 3Gun know we almost always discard our long guns muzzle DOWN. Usually in a barrel or container of some sort with a pad in the bottom to avoid muzzle damage. That way the muzzle direction is controlled and the possibility of a firearm "slipping and falling" is essentially eliminated. I remember a few years ago at EOT we had a stage where you discarded your long guns muzzle down. It worked fine. Maybe a NEW look at how we do things would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I am not going to take a side on this one, BUT, as many of you who shoot modern 3Gun know we almost always discard our long guns muzzle DOWN. Usually in a barrel or container of some sort with a pad in the bottom to avoid muzzle damage. That way the muzzle direction is controlled and the possibility of a firearm "slipping and falling" is essentially eliminated. I remember a few years ago at EOT we had a stage where you discarded your long guns muzzle down. It worked fine. Maybe a NEW look at how we do things would be helpful. Way to step right up, HJ! The way the rule is written there is only one call. The way the prop is designed may be subject to review, but without indication of failure there remains only one call. That said, being fairly new to the sport of 3gun I have had to get used to putting the gun in the barrel on the run- often downrange. This simply eliminates ALL concerns of any kind. There are so many other disciplines out there from which SASS could take a few experienced hints on stage design, safety, movement and staging. Great suggestion....maybe a plastic barrel painted to look like a whiskey barrel...although I can sort of hear the screams now about sXs and levers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I was also told, the day you think you know everything you will die the next!!!! I am the very first to admit that I do NOT know everything, and never will know everything Yet, I will still die,,,,,,jeeeese Why, we all die However Because what I do NOT know at each moment in time, even applied to any forum Well I am working on improvement Seeking further education does not mean that you are under educated Seeking new knowledge proves that you are open to growth of knowledge, backed up by personal experience's Come on, the wire is for sharing Ideas Concepts Narrow-mindedness Open mindedness Devils advocate sometimes is required for the good of the (mindedness) either way,,,,,to enhance, growth every where To learn, one needs to listen Sometimes a statement backed, followed up by listening and then reading wire responses' can make even MADD mike grow No one ever has been always wright And no one EVER will be proven to be right, always Fessing up to being Wrong Incorrect Misinterpreted Is what can set some of us as being different from others Each and every time I am proven wrong, I take it personal enough to do much more homework When proven wrong after more personal inter reflection and facts I always learn something important One way or the other I will never know all, be all or state that I am all Folks will ever agree on everything and that is OK sassmaddmike@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I shot that stage at EOT that year, almost everyone on the Posse, all RO2s, (berm marshalls) hated it! just cause someone else does it doesn't make it better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Way to step right up, HJ! The way the rule is written there is only one call. The way the prop is designed may be subject to review, but without indication of failure there remains only one call. That said, being fairly new to the sport of 3gun I have had to get used to putting the gun in the barrel on the run- often downrange. This simply eliminates ALL concerns of any kind. There are so many other disciplines out there from which SASS could take a few experienced hints on stage design, safety, movement and staging. Great suggestion....maybe a plastic barrel painted to look like a whiskey barrel...although I can sort of hear the screams now about sXs and levers. All shooting sports should be able to share what works well Intent is to ground a long gun per current rules per that discipline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Here's a couple that happen on occasion: NO INSTRUCTION re: how/where to restage long guns (default to Stage Convention #6) 6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. ... SHB p.21 Single bale provided for restaging Shooter sets long gun on bale & it slides forward with the muzzle ending up on the dirt on the downrange side...butt still on the bale. What's the call? & how is it different from the "muzzle down, but still partly on the horse prop" restaging position?? What if it slid the opposite direction i.e. butt on the ground on the UPrange side, barrel leaning against the bale, but still pointed DOWNrange? Does that change ANYTHING?? Those are apparently two 'too-tough' questions PWB, as I see no responses. What are we, a bunch of cowards? I'll stab at them. In both instances, assuming as it appears from your short narrative, as tho' the shooter has relinquished control of the firearm in question, prior to its continued movement, and as such it then 'falls' within the definition of "fallen". Foregoing any fault of the "bale", MSV. (I say 'fault of the bale', as anyone who's been around a bale or two, has seen those that are tightly packed, and those that are, well... loose)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 how does this work? throw your rifle onto the ground, you dint drop it. long as it dint break the 170..... forget the prop and its' proper usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Those are apparently two 'too-tough' questions PWB, as I see no responses. What are we, a bunch of cowards? I'll stab at them. In both instances, assuming as it appears from your short narrative, as tho' the shooter has relinquished control of the firearm in question, prior to its continued movement, and as such it then 'falls' within the definition of "fallen". Foregoing any fault of the "bale", MSV. (I say 'fault of the bale', as anyone who's been around a bale or two, has seen those that are tightly packed, and those that are, well... loose)! Long thread, Griff, and I did answer them the same way you did. Even used them in another example in another thread as did Happy Jack. Apparently it didn't fit some folks narrative. "What if the bale didn't mean to be loose? What if the bale's intent was not to be used as a prop in the first place? Who was the MD that allowed the bale to be used as a prop? Were any illegal migrants used in the baling of the hay? Was it corn stover or grass hay? Were green farming techniques used?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 how does this work? throw your rifle onto the ground, you dint drop it. long as it dint break the 170..... forget the prop and its' proper usage. Very good point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Alli Mo, warnin: a wide rangin' insult to follow. Long thread, Griff, and I did answer them the same way you did. Even used them in another example in another thread as did Happy Jack. Apparently it didn't fit some folks narrative. "What if the bale didn't mean to be loose? What if the bale's intent was not to be used as a prop in the first place? Who was the MD that allowed the bale to be used as a prop? Were any illegal migrants used in the baling of the hay? Was it corn stover or grass hay? Were green farming techniques used?" Even tho' I know I haven't had ALL the 'California' knocked off my boots, (as unlike some of my hard-core Texas friends, I'd rather just dally up on a rank steer, whereas they'd still tie-off, hard n' fast), that was as funny as they come! TWO big ol' thumbs up! Insteada "loose", I was gonna say "...a few flakes shy of a full 90 lbs." But knew somebody'd be offended! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Giff and others, I believe this is what PWB was referring too in his post #71 FROM RO1, pg 13 STAGE CONVENTIONS Stage Conventions or standard range behaviors are a list of practices every shooter is expected to know and follow on every stage. These stage defaults should be followed in all SASS Matches unless otherwise directed in stage descriptions. . 6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or spotter. Appropriate additional penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question. So, if nothing is stated in the stage description on what to do with rifle after the rifle string is shot, (for this rifle half in half out and muzzle in dirt discussion), this is the default per the rules. How you get there appears,,nope, 'is' open,,,, no 'intent' implyed on this one. Interesting!!! I don't really recommend someone does it, put muzzle in dirt, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I am the very first to admit that I do NOT know everything, and never will know everything Yet, I will still die,,,,,,jeeeese Why, we all die However Because what I do NOT know at each moment in time, even applied to any forum Well I am working on improvement Seeking further education does not mean that you are under educated Seeking new knowledge proves that you are open to growth of knowledge, backed up by personal experience's Come on, the wire is for sharing Ideas Concepts Narrow-mindedness Open mindedness Devils advocate sometimes is required for the good of the (mindedness) either way,,,,,to enhance, growth every where To learn, one needs to listen Sometimes a statement backed, followed up by listening and then reading wire responses' can make even MADD mike grow No one ever has been always wright And no one EVER will be proven to be right, always Fessing up to being Wrong Incorrect Misinterpreted Is what can set some of us as being different from others Each and every time I am proven wrong, I take it personal enough to do much more homework When proven wrong after more personal inter reflection and facts I always learn something important One way or the other I will never know all, be all or state that I am all Folks will ever agree on everything and that is OK sassmaddmike@yahoo.com What are you trying to say? KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Those are apparently two 'too-tough' questions PWB, as I see no responses. What are we, a bunch of cowards? I'll stab at them. In both instances, assuming as it appears from your short narrative, as tho' the shooter has relinquished control of the firearm in question, prior to its continued movement, and as such it then 'falls' within the definition of "fallen". Foregoing any fault of the "bale", MSV. (I say 'fault of the bale', as anyone who's been around a bale or two, has seen those that are tightly packed, and those that are, well... loose)! Your assuming a lot, the rule says Slip AND Fall you def of Fall is different from mine and also the rifle didn't slip and fall it slipped in both instances but didn't fall, the rifle's were still on the prop not completely on the ground which would be classified as had fallen. If the rule said slip or fall then I would agree without a doubt. KK ps again agree to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Alli Mo, warnin: a wide rangin' insult to follow. Even tho' I know I haven't had ALL the 'California' knocked off my boots, (as unlike some of my hard-core Texas friends, I'd rather just dally up on a rank steer, whereas they'd still tie-off, hard n' fast), that was as funny as they come! TWO big ol' thumbs up! Insteada "loose", I was gonna say "...a few flakes shy of a full 90 lbs." But knew somebody'd be offended! Don't encourge him KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Root cause always seems the same. The result or action the WB and ROC desire does not flow directly from the Rule as written and needs further interpretation by PWB. Operational Instructions (Rules) are best written by a professional (not me) not in committee, no matter how dedicated the committee members - based on the result or action desired. As long as we do what we have always done we will get what we have always gotten - confusion and disagreement. Allie, I hope this does not produce any bad words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Root cause always seems the same. The result or action the WB and ROC desire does not flow directly from the Rule as written and needs further interpretation by PWB. Operational Instructions (Rules) are best written by a professional (not me) not in committee, no matter how dedicated the committee members - based on the result or action desired. As long as we do what we have always done we will get what we have always gotten - confusion and disagreement. For everyone, You Know!!!!, Sponsoring clubs/match organizers/Match Director/Stage Writers/Stage review personnel/All Posse Marshals/All TO;s/ and even individual shooters 'COULD TAKE RESPONSIBILITY',,,,, to write/review/and modify as necessary to close the gray areas or potential misinterpetation, or what isn't specifically covered in the SASS rules, the stages AND if needed, write in more stringent requirements with whatever penalty they choose. The PM could (take responsibility) ask for the 'intent' of the stages to the MD or whom is heading the walk through...... lastly, the PM could (take responsibiity) triple enforce by his reading and explanation, the 'intent' of the stage, as learned from the walk through. Finally, the shooter 'could ' (take responsiblity) by ask whatever clarification questions at the conclusion of the reading and before lead flys. Don't always think that SASS rules are the only thing,,,, I believe local clubs can have more stringent safety rules than SASS.... They just need to post them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Your assuming a lot, the rule says Slip AND Fall you def of Fall is different from mine and also the rifle didn't slip and fall it slipped in both instances but didn't fall, the rifle's were still on the prop not completely on the ground which would be classified as had fallen. If the rule said slip or fall then I would agree without a doubt. KK ps again agree to disagree Not trying to argue the point to a pulp but if I'm walking and lose my footing and when its all said and done I have badly scraped one knee and two palms on the pavement but the toes on one foot are still right side up , did I not fall because my whole body was not flat on the ground ? Did the front of the gun slip and fall ? Yes . Did the stock of the gun slip and not fall ? Yes . Had he staged his gun the way it ended up maybe (big maybe ) MD would have been ok with that . But he didn't , it fell to that position . Much like placing a shot gun round on a table during a stage and then retrieving it for use versus a shot gun round FALLING out of a gun onto the table and then being retrieved . Its not necessarily how it's sitting is the problem as much as how it got there .JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Pretty much sez what I was going to: Not trying to argue the point to a pulp but if I'm walking and lose my footing and when its all said and done I have badly scraped one knee and two palms on the pavement but the toes on one foot are still right side up , did I not fall because my whole body was not flat on the ground ? Did the front of the gun slip and fall ? Yes . Did the stock of the gun slip and not fall ? Yes . Had he staged his gun the way it ended up maybe (big maybe ) MD would have been ok with that . But he didn't , it fell to that position . Much like placing a shot gun round on a table during a stage and then retrieving it for use versus a shot gun round FALLING out of a gun onto the table and then being retrieved . Its not necessarily how it's sitting is the problem as much as how it got there .JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.