Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

SASS shooters get no respect


Dang It Dan 13202

Recommended Posts

I don't get no respect :( Went to the dentist.........asked him what to do about these yellow teeth :huh: He told me to wear a green tie :o

 

 

I had ringing in my ears and trouble staying focused :blink: ............asked the doctor what he thought. He said he thought I was crazy :wacko: Told him I wanted a second opinon :mellow: He said OK, yer ugly too :blush:

 

 

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 213
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Winter Range is by far a match to attend

its well done

its well thought out,

it includes a mix of targets and setups

and it just plane rockks

and you get to see how you standup at an official National Finals competition

I have the utmost respect for the shoot and the folks that put it on

I would hope to guess that others folks from ben avery and the area that wonder through

would have respect for the shoot and its shooters as well

it is that good of a shoot and platform to interest new shooters

it proves to me what many on the wire say they like

a well thought out mix of stages and target sets

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the numbers say it all.

 

Has membership declined

Has attendence at matches declined

Has the number of vendors declined

Has the number of prouduct producers declined

Are clubs closing

If so there is a problem .

 

With all the replys to the original post I think this is a valid concern and bothers many

 

My two cents from the outside looking in

Tess

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a whole lot wrong with this post. Allow me a minute to abridge it.

 

I won't bother you with the details, but once again over the weekend I heard from a shooter from another discipline that "SASS shooters aren't really shooters".

 

BUT....he was right.

 

 

Respectfully,

 

Dang It Dan

Dan, sounds like you need an intervention. Myself and some fellow warthog BP shooters are here to help.

 

Please, everyone, abandon the squaw grip, put the short stroke half cocked 32's down and pony up to .44 plus and 200 grain plus in BP. Move the targets back....WAY BACK. Let's shoot a real man's sport or head back to the kitchen with the ladies or maybe crocheting is more suited for you. Quit all this cap gun silliness and maybe then you guys will grow some chest hair. I know you guys can drink "real men's" whiskey. How about shooting some "real men's" guns. Proceed to this tutorial to further embellish your manliness:

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Talk-Like-a-Caveman

 

Respectfully,

 

DDD

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, this one really is easy, at least for me. First of all, shame on anyone for disparaging another shooters enjoyment, especially to boost their own ego. Second, I was told a long time ago, not to compare apples and oranges, I like eating both, but their different. Third, I'm a moderately accomplished bullseye shooter. I'm not Brian Zins, but I have shot team with him before, and my real name is at least recognized on the circuit. Is bullseye more demanding accuracy wise, you bet. It's personally satisfying and more about "self" improvement for me. It's also slightly less exciting to watch than paint drying. I was on the line once and the shooter next to me was so frustrated he threw up his hands and asked why we do this? I told him because it's s damn hard, and at least the targets don't shoot back. He agreed, and said he should just get up in the morning and rub soap I his eyes instead.

 

Is Cowboy less demanding accuracy wise, pretty much yes. Is it about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on? Yes. I'm having a he!! of a time getting all my gear to work right, and to figure out what an Ohio sweep is, and what I'm going to do with all my junk and no gun cart, etc, etc, etc,...Did I mention its fun? That everyone falls over backward to help you? I'm a pretty competitive person, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to determine who has the most fun at a match. From the very few I've attended so far, I can't tell. Of course most people can't do hand stands, but their having some much fun they would if they could. Of course their pistols would fall out and their gunbelts would probably strangle them.

 

My ONLY concern with the close pistol targets is splash back as most of the targets appear locally made and in various states of wear, but I will have to reserve judgement on that until I've been around long enough to have an opinion that counts. The bottom line is, I'm not competitive, maybe I will be someday, maybe I wont. What I do know, is good shooters generally are good at whatever discipline they chose. Bad shooters generally are bad shooters in whatever discipline they chose. This difference seems to be that both groups seem to have an awful lot of fun shooting cowboy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Could Dan be saying that the image problem that some think exists was caused by the ligt loads small cal. super big ,close targets etc,?and this could lead to a decline in the game.?

I would have to say that the shooters did not do CAS any favors with their race to the bottom of light recoil loads,

I do not care what the caliber was. I attended many a match, of all sizes where super duper light loads were an eye opening experience. Running the timer was even more difficult due to the more than average squib factor.

If other outside shooters were there to watch the race to the bottom, it most certainly would have them thinking.

Before this gets twisted: YES, in the race to the bottom of felt recoil, shooters learned the hard way that the bottom was not the place to be with regards to just getting the bullet to the target and overall speed in the long run.

The Problem is: during that learning curve, and the arguements on the wire that the WB / rules com needs to do something,

perhaps just perhaps, some respect for CAS was deminished during that time period, and that sticks if folks minds, even CAS shooters if they lived the time period, NOT just herd about that time period.

Just something to think about

Link to post
Share on other sites

maasai-warrior1.jpg

 

This guy is a Masai Warrior. He has undergone rites of passage to become the elite of his culture and society. Masai believe they are the chosen people and tend to view the activities of other people and cultures as frivolous.

 

I think there is a lesson there. Shooting a firearm well does not make you more of a man or less than one. To judge others based solely on the distance to their target is meaningless.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just got back from the Crimson Trace Midnight 3-Gun shoot, which had a bit of everything we're been talking about here — little targets, long distances, lots of running, "stages guns" of all flavors and tough challenges...all in the pitch dark! Was it fun? Incredibly so! Was it just plain stone cold hard? You betcha! Hey, we shot a house-clearing stage in night vision goggles using a suppressed Glock and an SBR, 200-yard shots with an FLIR thermal scope system on a Colt 5.56, 50 and 100 yard shots with a carbine fitted with a night vision scope, a belt-fed SAW, a full-auto SCAR 5.56 and — top this! — a 40mm grenade launcher shooting chalk training rounds!

 

It's all pulling the trigger, and it's all fun.

 

I was lucky enough to shoot on the squad with multigun ace Brian Nelson, whom you might know as the Molasses Kid. Funny, but none of the experienced shooters on my squad has anything but respect for cowboy action shooters. Some of the side matches were with cowboy guns...a Sharps and Winchester lever guns and people kept talking about how much fun they were to shoot. I told them me and the Molasses Kid already knew that!

 

Small metaphysical point...to an extent, all shooting competition is a game to see how sloppy you can be and still win. The shot defines just how sloppy you can be on your sight picture and trigger press.

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

Link to post
Share on other sites

yup

what WB just said

and may I add

 

perhaps we should talk more about the respect, instead of the disrepect

yet be open minded to:: lessons can be learned from why there may be ligitimit disrepect

Link to post
Share on other sites

Probably wouldn't meet B Western rules. Hah!

 

That picture kinda brought a couple of thoughts to mind. First: What if he's right? What if no one but the Masai matter? We are ALL DOOMED!!!

 

Second: There is probably a world champ of some sport who never heard of the Masai. And that world champ thinks that his world is the best.

 

Third: It's 5 o'clock somewhere......

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude my ass.

 

Actually, I shoot with Charlie quite often, and harass him on a regular basis.

Link to post
Share on other sites

distance to their target is meaningless.

 

Not to some folks

 

So a Navy Seal Snipers skill set should not be judged, even if it saves lifes in many cases?

 

You have GOT to be kidding me. You now think that because you PLAY a shooting game, you're equivalent to a Seal? I haven't heard anyone above the age of 9 say that in a long long time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know of two world champions from other shooting sports who are now exclusively Cowboy Action shooters. Both are intelligent. Neither had to have it explained that it's not as easy as it looks. They tried it. They liked it. Both are good shooters in CAS. Best finish so far: Top 30 at EOT.

 

If the disparaging shooter ever decides to shoot cowboy, I have him a fitting alias picked out. It's short for Little Richard. I'm going to spread the rumor that he is Buffalo Dick's "little" brother. Apologies to BD. :)

 

Buck D. Law

Masai Gunfighter..........................................dang if we don't need a ROFL emoticon. :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Fly fishing is a sport, bait fishing is for children.

Archery hunting is a true skill, anyone can shoot a deer with a rifle

Hunting hogs with knives, separates the men from the boys

 

I could go on. Who cares???

 

I have been shooting since I was old enough. If I lived in another part of the country, I probably would have been an extremely accomplished shooter. Our party of the country just didn't lend itself to a lot shooting time, but I had the heart and the passion for it.

 

I'm pretty good with modern pistols, rifles, etc. I might not win, but I can hit a target with just about whatever you hand me.

 

In SASS, I didn't do as well as I'd hoped my first time out. Not that I thought it would be easy and my biggest hurdle is always trying to shoot too fast. At least as fast as I'm used to with other firearms. Fun? I don't think any other discipline that I've shot was as much fun. Life interrupted and I haven't been back, but work is changing and I just signed back up with SASS and couldn't be more excited. Our club recently added 5 bays for outdoor pistol shooting. These could lend themselves pretty well for an SASS event. I had approached the President about it and there was initially some interest. Maybe I can find my passion for it again and get things rolling.

Link to post
Share on other sites

At "Westmatch" Washington State Championship, I sat at the awards ceremony and did a little math. Ten stages, over two days, 10 rifle, ten pistol and six shotgun per stage for a total of 260 shots. Took the overall time of our top shooter, who shot the entire match with an average .88 seconds per shot, clean! Thats including time to shift positions, safe rifles and shotgun, move from position to position, draw and holster revolvers, etc. etc.

 

Now I don't know about ya'all but that kind of shooting demands respect. I don't care how close, how big, or how "EASY" the stage may have been I'd like to see anyone from any shooting sport watch that and not be impressed. I'm a newby to CAS and maybe easily impressed but WOW! I'd like to see that again.

 

Took less than 5 minutes for that Cowboy to finish the entire match and 3 days of fun to do it!

Link to post
Share on other sites

At "Westmatch" Washington State Championship, I sat at the awards ceremony and did a little math. Ten stages, over two days, 10 rifle, ten pistol and six shotgun per stage for a total of 260 shots. Took the overall time of our top shooter, who shot the entire match with an average .88 seconds per shot, clean! Thats including time to shift positions, safe rifles and shotgun, move from position to position, draw and holster revolvers, etc. etc.

 

Now I don't know about ya'all but that kind of shooting demands respect. I don't care how close, how big, or how "EASY" the stage may have been I'd like to see anyone from any shooting sport watch that and not be impressed. I'm a newby to CAS and maybe easily impressed but WOW! I'd like to see that again.

 

Took less than 5 minutes for that Cowboy to finish the entire match and 3 days of fun to do it!

 

You nailed it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

While I don't think anyone here is proposing drastic changes, I do feel the need to reiterate that the need to actually aim the rifle is a very basic shooting skill that we often ignore completely. I'm not saying that we need to shoot at 4" targets at 25 yards, but maybe we should consider making the rifle sweeps more than a cycling of the action contest. Frankly, I'll shoot whatever is set, without complaints, but the rifle is capable of so much more than what we seem to be interested and I've never been sure why. Good luck and good shooting to all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You have GOT to be kidding me. You now think that because you PLAY a shooting game, you're equivalent to a Seal? I haven't heard anyone above the age of 9 say that in a long long time.

no

not at all

 

just sayin

the ability to shoot & hit things at a distance should account for something,

be you a person in CAS, a military person

or a 9 year old boy with a sling shot in the back yard

 

geeeese

Link to post
Share on other sites

In the few years that I've been shooting and been a regular reader of the Wire, here are a couple observations from those years:

 

There are those who have stated that they no longer attend SASS/CAS matches because the "need for speed" has ruint "THEIR" game.

 

And some of those folks have went so far as to blame it all on those Top Guns who have to have a bunch of Stand and Deliver stages.

 

AND.....Light loads to help them shoot faster.

 

Nothing could probably be further from the truth. TOP GUNS DO NOT use those light loads that boarder on squibs. They can't afford the inconsistency of such loads. AND, the TOP GUNS seem to want some more challenging matches. My 'guess', based on limited experiences, is that the Big and Close was more or less adopted to help the rest of us feel good about our shooting and be able to shoot some SUB 30 second and SUB 20 second stages every now and then.

 

Hey, I admit, it does feel good when a 62 year old feller can burn a stage in Sub 20 every now and then. And when I see a 72 year old Pard do it, the smile is enormous.

And when I see Ms.Mom/Wife/Girlfriend burn a stage in the Teens or even sub 30 times, she is becoming a reliable attendee at some of our big matches. And when MOM/Wife/Girlfriend looks forward to the Big Matches, then everybody is happier.

 

The 5 yrd targets and the 7 yrd targets all have a place in our game. For the Super Gunners and the 90% plus other shooters.

 

I find that alot of our Match Directors are trying hard to accommodate all those aspects to keep it fun, challenging, and MEMORABLE. And well worth our time and money to travel to support those big matches.

 

Ya gotta Salute Deuce in the time and effort he commits to insure those matches he is 'Match Director' will achieve the Fun, Challenging and Memorable moments for as many as possible.

 

And I found this yeard GOA to be in the same atmosphere. There were a couple pure speed stages that everyone could enjoy. But some of those stages were challenging. And I thoroughly enjoyed the match.

 

Well, my computer is getting low on ink so I better sign off now.

 

Safe travels to everyone and 'try to keep a good thought'.

 

 

..........Widder

Link to post
Share on other sites

during the same time period I have notice that top shooters in CAS (WR or EOT) are not the ones doing most of that stuff

so therefore I agree with ya widdow maker

however

its most often shooters::::::::: that try too hard to be or become that top shooter,

by looking at other ways of getting there besides

just plain hard work and hundreds of thounds of rounds down range in pratice honeing their skill set

sometimes top shooters in the small ponds around their homesteads did some of those things mentioned

Link to post
Share on other sites

I won't bother you with the details, but once again over the weekend I heard from a shooter from another discipline that "SASS shooters aren't really shooters". I said "do tell". He went on to say that SASS shooters shoot under-powered loads at over-sized targets at dangerously close distances. I said, "so what?" with a stupid grin on my face so the conversation stopped there. BUT....he was right.

 

...

Let the games begin.

 

Respectfully,

 

Dang It Dan

 

I stopped worrying about what other people thought about my hobbies when I realized that they were invariably jealous of what I was able to accomplish. Like many others I have engaged in many types of shooting competition. The only ones I shoot nowdays are the ones I still enjoy. Of these SASS is at the top of the heap.

 

Personally, I do not understand why you give a rat's a__ what others think about what we do. It's legal, it's fun, what else matters?

 

The biggest problem you seem to have is that you are ashamed of your participation in SASS (you have agreed with your detractor right from the git-go.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

during the same time period I have notice that top shooters in CAS (WR or EOT) are not the ones doing most of that stuff

 

For arguments sake and no other shooting disciplines being here piping in the discussion giving their perspective.......along with some of my general opinions:

Example, let's look at IDPA/USPSA power factors, and I shoot neither.

Our power factors are a joke comparatively speaking. I know different sport, different rules. At best I see plinking/target loads.

Second, the measure of accuracy is grossly liberal in our venue with speed being the overriding factor. Not that good shooters aren't accurate, but a 16" to 24" margin of error at 30 10 feet is rather liberal don't ya think? And folks still miss (I have)! With rifles I think it is more exaggerated. I find it plausible to completely remove the front sight, in most cases, and install a full buck horn and if the target partially fills the buck horn, fire away. Front sight/rear sight relationship seems to be of little consequence with such a long sight radius. It seems most misses I see are folks focusing on targets looking for every bit of speed, ignoring sight/target relationship altogether or their timing is off.

Other observations:

-Winning is based more on muscle memory and speeding up that muscle memory rather than accuracy. Timing is more important than shot placement in most of scenarios. Of course we aren't measuring in terms of gut-shooting someone at the OK Corral vs a liver vs a lung vs a heart shot.

-The loads aren't realistic in proportion to the calibers, except buckaroos and 22's. I question loads many people shoot but why bother contesting it. SASS has proven to cave in and allow on this matter and many others. When it gets down to it, you guys shooting 32's quit kidding yourselves and lobby for a 22 main match division.

-There is little decision making in each stage, just a laid out orchestrated scenario.

-Sure, top shooters win because they practice. Sure they have discipline and focus on their sights. Sure, when all of that comes together with their timing, they are accurate.

But accuracy is not what what we promote here. Simply make a hit on an otherwise generous target, engage the next target. Use whatever load you can get away with and do it all as quickly as possible. That is what we promote.

-I hear ya. Ya shot a sub 16 second stage. With those guns and those loads on those targets? Big deal. My Wii controller vibrates on Cabelas Dangerous Hunts.

 

 

So no wonder the other guys think like they do......

 

But then again, they don't get to wear all the cool clothes and we do seem to have a whole hell of a lot of more fun than they do so why change anything? I doubt they have banquets like ours and the St Jude Charity shoot is the best steak dinner for the money to be had!

 

Despite all of these observations, I must say I have neither the time nor potential nor the desire at this time to do the

things that Deuce, Dan,Stan, Bud, RRR, Widder, Easy Rider, Fast Eddie etc

etc have done. I run a business. Even when I shoot, there are things I

know I should be doing. I have 3 kids with 1 more on the way. My

responsibilities override my hobbies. My long term goals are more important than shooting each weekend much less 3-4 times a year and thats about all I squeeze in. Regardless of what I shoot or IDPA or USPSA shoots, its pretty dang cool watching the aforementioned pards blister a stage and wonder, where the hell did my 5-10 seconds go?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What I am suggesting is that we may have gone too far in search of "fun" and forsaken accuracy and consistency. How can we, as shooters, really ever expect other shooters to look at our Champions as who they really are when the targets five yards out and the size of a car door?

 

 

Dan,

I read your post again. Let me get this straight, what ya really meant to say is how will we, as a society, be prepared for the zombie apocalypse if groups like SASS don't promote heavier loads and accuracy?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dan,

 

Life is too short to worry about what other people think about us.

 

If you're having fun, you're doing it right.

Right!

 

There are billions of people who don't think about us at all. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dan,

I read your post again. Let me get this straight, what ya really meant to say is how will we, as a society, be prepared for the zombie apocalypse if groups like SASS don't promote heavier loads and accuracy?

That's funny right there.

 

As to the too close targets, you all realize that most of the old west gunfights involving pistols and shotguns took place indoors and were up close and personal. When they were outdoors, more often than not they used a rifle.

 

Anyway a lot of you really fast shooters grousing about targets that are too big and too close apparently don't get out as much as you think. I know three clubs right here on the Missouri/Kansas border where rifle shots often require the participant to aim. Of course, the match directors at those three clubs are all into long range shooting. At those clubs a real good shooter has trouble breaking 30.

 

From what I have been told there are two reasons for close targets. One is a lot of people want immediate feedback. Good shooters want to think they are good. Nothing despirits the average good shooter more than going as fast as he can and only shooting a stage in 35 seconds even if he discovers later on that 35 seconds is a great stage time. The other is shorter stage times help move the traffic at big matches. You can just move a posse faster at a state match or above if the average good shooter can shoot a stage in 20 seconds or less instead of 30 seconds or less. Over a couple of hundred shooters all those 10 seconds add up to real time savings, giving more people more time to get ready for the BBQ. Remember there are very few new shooters at a state match or above.

Link to post
Share on other sites

this here wire thingie is for entertainment

big-fast-close, postage stamps at 110, distance does not matter

aint we a hoot

 

when I was 9 years old, I set my sling shot targets at 5yds, 7 yds, and 9 yds and even further

I practiced until I was the top dog of the hood

 

go ahead folks

say it

yup, I werent as fast then as I am today

 

back to

aint we a hoot

Link to post
Share on other sites

this here wire thingie is for entertainment

big-fast-close, postage stamps at 110, distance does not matter

aint we a hoot

 

when I was 9 years old, I set my sling shot targets at 5yds, 7 yds, and 9 yds and even further

I practiced until I was the top dog of the hood

 

go ahead folks

say it

yup, I werent as fast then as I am today

 

back to

aint we a hoot

 

JEDI Madd Mike:

 

back when you was 9 (probably 60 years ago... :lol: ) rocks were plentiful.....and FREE for your sling shot!

 

such ain't the case today with primers, powder and $$$.

 

 

..........Widder

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is my opinion on the subject not a statement that tells other people how to play the sport.

 

1st of all to me the sport was a hell of a lot more interesting when there was target variation. I mean pistol targets at 7-10 yrd. that were 12"x12" to 16"x16" and rifle targets the same size set at 12-18 yrds. (Most CAS shooters don't even consider targets like this hitable targets anymore.) Then some burner stages thrown in with them. The performance edge to hold it together was a lot finer and harder to mantain then. It does take more skill to shoot that type of match. That is what I enjoyed. By the way it was the fastest growth period of the sport so the targets were not scaring off shooters.

 

This was stage variation. When you have some stages with pistol targets at 3-4 yrds then some stages with pistol targets at 5-6 yrds. That is not variation! That is a whole match with close targets. The same goes for the rifle targets. Some stages with 7 yrd rifle targets mixed in with 10 yrd rifle targets is not variation either.

 

As targets got bigger and closer my consentration level went down and the adrenalin level followed. The sport become rather boring. So bad that at our regional which prides itself on huge and close targets I would come off a 14 second stage and not even have an elevated heart beat. I'd shoot the whole match very sloppy and still shoot it clean. That's not to rewarding either.

 

As local matches got bigger and closer targets I quit attending them as well. Again they bored me out of my mind.

 

It has gotten bad enough that the only match I looked forward to attending was the Michigan State Championship. Deuce knows how to put on a challenging match with challenging hitable targets. I believe he has taken a little bit of flack about his target distance which I used to think it was totally uncalled for, but now I can see where some shooters are coming from. There fed a steady diet of big and close and then stand in front of some challenging targets and can't figure out why they aren't shooting as well as they usually do. They just are not used to shooting a higher skill set match.

 

I've been told that the sport needs bigger and closer targets for al kind of reasons.

 

1. Bigger and closer will get more people interested in the sport. Not true! I've never heard a shooter attend a shoot that had legit targets say they weren't coming back because they missed too many targets.

 

2. Bigger and Closer targets will really bring in the women and children. Looking at shoot results I really haven't seen these two groups grow any faster than before. Buckaroo and Junior are still pretty small catigories.

 

3. Bigger and Closer make the one handed catigories compete better for top over-all. I don't believe this to be true either. If this is true than this prooves you can be more sloppy and hit targets to score better.

 

4. Bigger and Closer helps the middle of the pack shooter compete with the top shooters. I'd say the middle of the pack shooters hit more targets but have more wrecks with their guns. ie locked up rifles OOB discharges jacked out rounds.

 

Now as far as the respect thing. I do think it is probably a more difficult skill to become a national champion in the IPSC or IDPA world versus CAS. Do I think there are a lot of CAS shooters that would make good IPSC shooters? Hell ya! The oposite is true as well. Each is a skill in itself.

 

Here is some food for thought. I know I'm going to get burned at the stake for these questions. If big and close is as challenging and deserves as much respect as earlier CAS target scenarios and other shooting sports, how many other shooting sports have 12 and 13 year olds challenging for over-all world, National, and Regional titles? Also how many other shooting sports that you shoot a pistol in have competitors shooting a pistol with the front site wider than the rear site? Kind of tough to get a fundamentally sound sight picture required to consistantly hit targets right.

 

I am not saying these are bad things! Just simple questions. So don't reply and tell me I'm anti youth.

 

Now what I find funny is the amount of complaining about issues caused by big and close targets. We could solve a lot of spotting issues by simply changing the size and distance of the targets. I seen a major match won because the spotters could not tell whether or not a fast shooter actually hit a target or not. The pistol target was at 4 yrds and was about 2ft x 3ft. I watched him miss 2 out of the 3 shots of a triple tap. The spotters couldn't tell so the benefit went to the shooter. Big and Close = more subjective!

 

Sorry for the one big paragraph. For some reason it slams it all together instead of different paragraphs. It won't let me correct it.

 

 

 

This.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.