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SASS shooters get no respect


Dang It Dan 13202

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Guest Hoss Carpenter, SASS Life 7843

Me , I have been a competitive shooter all my life. Started with .22 small bore and moved up to big bore with a touch of silhouette. then I discovered shotguns (completion) and shot thousands of ATA Trap and NSSA Skeet. In the early 90s I got into IPSC and Three Gun. One day in 1994 a friend of mine told me he was forming a CAS Club in Middle Georgia and I was "all in". I already had a Winchester (25-20) and a Ruger Super Blackhawk and a Stevens double.

 

I am not overly happy with all the big and close we have evolved to, however as someone stated, it is the people and fun that will keep me coming to CAS as long as I live. I have met some very good people in other shooting sports, and I have met some "perfect A__holes" too! Especially in ATA Trap. I have met nothing but fine and fun folk (Ok a small few grouches) in CAS. I will shoot CAS as long as I live!

 

Hoss C.

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This is my opinion on the subject not a statement that tells other people how to play the sport.

 

1st of all to me the sport was a hell of a lot more interesting when there was target variation. I mean pistol targets at 7-10 yrd. that were 12"x12" to 16"x16" and rifle targets the same size set at 12-18 yrds. (Most CAS shooters don't even consider targets like this hitable targets anymore.) Then some burner stages thrown in with them. The performance edge to hold it together was a lot finer and harder to mantain then. It does take more skill to shoot that type of match. That is what I enjoyed. By the way it was the fastest growth period of the sport so the targets were not scaring off shooters.

 

This was stage variation. When you have some stages with pistol targets at 3-4 yrds then some stages with pistol targets at 5-6 yrds. That is not variation! That is a whole match with close targets. The same goes for the rifle targets. Some stages with 7 yrd rifle targets mixed in with 10 yrd rifle targets is not variation either.

 

As targets got bigger and closer my consentration level went down and the adrenalin level followed. The sport become rather boring. So bad that at our regional which prides itself on huge and close targets I would come off a 14 second stage and not even have an elevated heart beat. I'd shoot the whole match very sloppy and still shoot it clean. That's not to rewarding either.

 

As local matches got bigger and closer targets I quit attending them as well. Again they bored me out of my mind.

 

It has gotten bad enough that the only match I looked forward to attending was the Michigan State Championship. Deuce knows how to put on a challenging match with challenging hitable targets. I believe he has taken a little bit of flack about his target distance which I used to think it was totally uncalled for, but now I can see where some shooters are coming from. There fed a steady diet of big and close and then stand in front of some challenging targets and can't figure out why they aren't shooting as well as they usually do. They just are not used to shooting a higher skill set match.

 

I've been told that the sport needs bigger and closer targets for al kind of reasons.

 

1. Bigger and closer will get more people interested in the sport. Not true! I've never heard a shooter attend a shoot that had legit targets say they weren't coming back because they missed too many targets.

 

2. Bigger and Closer targets will really bring in the women and children. Looking at shoot results I really haven't seen these two groups grow any faster than before. Buckaroo and Junior are still pretty small catigories.

 

3. Bigger and Closer make the one handed catigories compete better for top over-all. I don't believe this to be true either. If this is true than this prooves you can be more sloppy and hit targets to score better.

 

4. Bigger and Closer helps the middle of the pack shooter compete with the top shooters. I'd say the middle of the pack shooters hit more targets but have more wrecks with their guns. ie locked up rifles OOB discharges jacked out rounds.

 

Now as far as the respect thing. I do think it is probably a more difficult skill to become a national champion in the IPSC or IDPA world versus CAS. Do I think there are a lot of CAS shooters that would make good IPSC shooters? Hell ya! The oposite is true as well. Each is a skill in itself.

 

Here is some food for thought. I know I'm going to get burned at the stake for these questions. If big and close is as challenging and deserves as much respect as earlier CAS target scenarios and other shooting sports, how many other shooting sports have 12 and 13 year olds challenging for over-all world, National, and Regional titles? Also how many other shooting sports that you shoot a pistol in have competitors shooting a pistol with the front site wider than the rear site? Kind of tough to get a fundamentally sound sight picture required to consistantly hit targets right.

 

I am not saying these are bad things! Just simple questions. So don't reply and tell me I'm anti youth.

 

Now what I find funny is the amount of complaining about issues caused by big and close targets. We could solve a lot of spotting issues by simply changing the size and distance of the targets. I seen a major match won because the spotters could not tell whether or not a fast shooter actually hit a target or not. The pistol target was at 4 yrds and was about 2ft x 3ft. I watched him miss 2 out of the 3 shots of a triple tap. The spotters couldn't tell so the benefit went to the shooter. Big and Close = more subjective!

 

Sorry for the one big paragraph. For some reason it slams it all together instead of different paragraphs. It won't let me correct it.

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Part of Colt's post - This is my opinion on the subject not a statement that tells other people how to play the sport.

 

I agree 100% with Colt McAllister's post. It's the first one posted since the OP that said it all for me. Well done!

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Just an FYI, I consider big/close to be 16" - 20" at 4-7 yards on pistol and 10-13 yards on rifle.

 

We're pretty close in our thinking.

 

I consider the Big/Close to be the same size as Phantom mentioned at around 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 yards with Pistols and right at 13 with rifle.

 

I would like 10 yrd rifle targets (plural) every now and then but only on occasion.

 

I do like the SG at 8 - 10 yrds.

 

I don't like flyers because the blame launcher doesn't stay consistent, birds brake before you shoot at them, etc...

 

Thats just my .02

 

I haven't found myself getting bored at matches but I must admit that of the 4 clubs I visit monthly, variety is obvious and none of them are setting targets for pistols closer than 5 yrds on occasion, and most of the stages seem to have the 5 1/2 to 7 yrd pistol targets of various sizes and shapes. I like em like that.

 

I do admit that I don't like the cowboy sillouette targets.

 

 

..........Widder

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Madd Mike, it's just as much of a high to shoot a 10-10-4 with movement on 16" targets at 7 and 14 yards in 13-15 seconds. Do it all the time. But it is a different skill set.

yup I agree with ya on that one

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This is my opinion on the subject not a statement that tells other people how to play the sport.

 

1st of all to me the sport was a hell of a lot more interesting when there was target variation. I mean pistol targets at 7-10 yrd. that were 12"x12" to 16"x16" and rifle targets the same size set at 12-18 yrds. (Most CAS shooters don't even consider targets like this hitable targets anymore.) Then some burner stages thrown in with them. The performance edge to hold it together was a lot finer and harder to mantain then. It does take more skill to shoot that type of match. That is what I enjoyed. By the way it was the fastest growth period of the sport so the targets were not scaring off shooters.

 

This was stage variation. When you have some stages with pistol targets at 3-4 yrds then some stages with pistol targets at 5-6 yrds. That is not variation! That is a whole match with close targets. The same goes for the rifle targets. Some stages with 7 yrd rifle targets mixed in with 10 yrd rifle targets is not variation either.

 

As targets got bigger and closer my consentration level went down and the adrenalin level followed. The sport become rather boring. So bad that at our regional which prides itself on huge and close targets I would come off a 14 second stage and not even have an elevated heart beat. I'd shoot the whole match very sloppy and still shoot it clean. That's not to rewarding either.

 

As local matches got bigger and closer targets I quit attending them as well. Again they bored me out of my mind.

 

wow, I agree 100%,

only difference is, as a gunfighter I never hit the 14 second level, but 16+ yes was possible and necessary to win your category

 

different skill level shooters will run the big fast and close at their level, be it 22 seconds, next level around 30 seconds 38 seconds,and so on

stage after stage of targets set ( same size, same shape, same distance, same height) for rhythm shooting, CAN get boring

after a couple of more years of this, perhaps more shooters will come to understand that: some more variation may be a valid ideal

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I agree 100%! I've been in this game since the mid 90's and been a match director and a competitive shooter the entire time.

 

 

This is my opinion on the subject not a statement that tells other people how to play the sport.

1st of all to me the sport was a hell of a lot more interesting when there was target variation. I mean pistol targets at 7-10 yrd. that were 12"x12" to 16"x16" and rifle targets the same size set at 12-18 yrds. (Most CAS shooters don't even consider targets like this hitable targets anymore.) Then some burner stages thrown in with them. The performance edge to hold it together was a lot finer and harder to mantain then. It does take more skill to shoot that type of match. That is what I enjoyed. By the way it was the fastest growth period of the sport so the targets were not scaring off shooters.

This was stage variation. When you have some stages with pistol targets at 3-4 yrds then some stages with pistol targets at 5-6 yrds. That is not variation! That is a whole match with close targets. The same goes for the rifle targets. Some stages with 7 yrd rifle targets mixed in with 10 yrd rifle targets is not variation either.

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Ya'll do realize that not ALL matches are BIG and CLOSE? LOTS of matches have a good mixture. Most clubs around here have different shaped targets typically at 5-7 yds. Rifle at 10-20 yds with some now and again closer or farther. We have a mover, a swinger, a Tx star and racks of knockdowns. Most of our targets are bigger than 16"x16", but some are significantly smaller.

Overall, in these parts, we are doing very well with variety, I think.

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Ya'll do realize that not ALL matches are BIG and CLOSE? LOTS of matches have a good mixture. Most clubs around here have different shaped targets typically at 5-7 yds. Rifle at 10-20 yds with some now and again closer or farther. We have a mover, a swinger, a Tx star and racks of knockdowns. Most of our targets are bigger than 16"x16", but some are significantly smaller.

Overall, in these parts, we are doing very well with variety, I think.

i would attend those matchs, with no problems cept

driving miles from Nevada

 

not all areas offer such a match

we are from the land of ? bfc these days

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Practice time is when you improve your shooting skills...match is for testing them.

 

And if you don't think that it takes a sight picture to hit big and close targets at warp speed...yer wrong. Fact is that in order to be competitive with big/close targets, you have to learn to acquire a sight picture REAL fast. If you're sloppy, you'll miss. Remember, you're going real fast...can't be sloppy.

 

But again, let folks play on match day...and stop with trying to make them shooters that you feel have adequate skill.

 

Phantom

Phantom, I I know it takes a sight picture to hit big and close at warp speed. I know you're a top shooter and I really appreciate your sharp wit on the wire. I'm referring to the non-warp speed shooter who hopefully will learn that the sight picture is critical to improve.

 

Deuce, you're right about the target remaining consistent through a whole match. Sometimes a really cool idea if not executed well can wreck a whole match.

 

It is easy to focus on the game based on where we and our peers are in the game and not recall when we were brand new in the game. Having an accomplished shooter notice potential and a desire to get better can have a big impact on a budding shooter. I think we all want new shooters to attack the game and we quickly notice and respond when we see one that does.

 

How fortunate we are to be able to debate a game that we are so lucky to be able to play. There are so many that have no idea what fun and benefits we gain from our game.

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"How fortunate we are to be able to debate a game that we are so lucky to be able to play. There are so many that have no idea what fun and benefits we gain from our game"

 

Ain't that the truth!

 

;)

 

I advocate mixing things up a bit...but I don't believe in putting small targets out at long distances. That's just me...having to vary speeds on a stage...between strings...between different targets...and I hate dumps!

 

Phantom

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"How fortunate we are to be able to debate a game that we are so lucky to be able to play. There are so many that have no idea what fun and benefits we gain from our game"

 

Ain't that the truth!

 

;)

 

I advocate mixing things up a bit...but I don't believe in putting small targets out at long distances. That's just me...having to vary speeds on a stage...between strings...between different targets...and I hate dumps!

 

Phantom

that is all I have be tryin ta say all along, I agree with ya,

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Close and big or far and small. It all comes down to what each of us wants to put into it. Dedication to perfect practice not just "practice" is what sets todays shooter apart.. Watching and shooting with fast young guns or slow old guns its all about "having fun" and bringin em back for more.

 

I personally think it's great that we have 12-13 year olds challenging for titles nationwide. It shows the depth of our sport when all ages have that chance to run a good stage. Those that put in the time and "perfect practice" can shoot with the best of the SASS shooters and still get excited when they blaze a stage, clear a knock down rack, shoot a swinger stage clean. These same shooters will rise to the top on the more difficult distances and target sizes. This was proven at EOT this year with the World Record Stage. Targets set way out there reasonable sized and the Buckaroo record was beaten by better than 2 seconds and was shot clean not once but twice by the shooter!

 

The important thing is that SASS preserves a piece of history that was all but forgotten. It introduces people from all walks of life to shooting sports and brings a very large group of like minded people together enjoying a freedom we all need to protect.

 

I like being around CAS and really good shooters. CAS's are a fun bunch and we need to promote that as our strong suit to attract more shooters. Fast-good shooters make me a better shooter-cause I learn something all the time. So bring on those Silver Seniors and Buckaroos that can kick my but--cause one day-one stage I just might beat em!

 

And for those of you that don't get excited at a match or after running a stage or don't support a match cause the targets are to close or to far or you don't like the Match Director--your only hurting yourself and the sport. It's a lot of work to figure out what the shooters want and please the majority trying to put on a good match. Shoot when you can where you can and support the privilege to carry those guns!

 

MT Pockets

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I for one have always thought we could have more challenging rifle targets without slowing things down considerably and a more challenging revolver set once in a while does add to the variety. It's pretty much evolved to just how fast one can cycle the guns and just mention of the word rifle implies accuracy to most everyone in the gun world. While speed is indeed a skill, accuracy, and consistancy are too and the combination of the three is what really makes a fine shooter. Maybe we have taken the speed thing to it's limits and I can't say that I haven't had fun at it, but maybe it's time we do take a hard look at our sport and consider a more rounded venue. I'm sure speed will always be king and it probably should be, but I don't really see a problem with actually needing to aim once in awhile, especially with the rifle. Good luck and good shooting to all. Adios

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" If big and close is as challenging and deserves as much respect as earlier CAS target scenarios and other shooting sports, how many other shooting sports have 12 and 13 year olds challenging for over-all world, National, and Regional titles?"

 

 

Colt,

It's not the BIG and close targets that allow the youngsters in our sport to fly like they do. The ones competing for overall have put in more practice time than you and I combined!

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There are planty of shooting sports and styles for us all to get along. So, just tell your friend from the other disciplines "get along there Pard, get along"

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I'll add another thought. We have to set MI State match next week and it always weighs heavy on my mind as a match director how do I challenge out top 10% yet entertain my Uncle Johnny at 80 years old who likes to go fast AND hit targets. The very truth of the matter is that in most cases match directors and stage writers do the very best we can. Sitting at the kitchen table with my wife for hours on end writing stages and then watching her spend endless hours formatting and typing up the final product so the intent is correct give me littler patience for folks that don't respect the sport or constantly complain. Shooters of higher skill sometimes forget just how limited the fields skill can be when it comes to negotiating different aspects of the game. Sometimes it's as simple as a new starting position. Whenever I hear statements like "we need to challenge and expose the shooter to a higher skill set" I duck for cover. it's never been our job to create better shooters. I want variety. But just cause I can doesn't mean I want 10" pistol targets at 12 yards. I can almost bet that Colt and Dan don't either.

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I'll add another thought. We have to set MI State match next week and it always weighs heavy on my mind as a match director how do I challenge out top 10% yet entertain my Uncle Johnny at 80 years old who likes to go fast AND hit targets. The very truth of the matter is that in most cases match directors and stage writers do the very best we can. Sitting at the kitchen table with my wife for hours on end writing stages and then watching her spend endless hours formatting and typing up the final product so the intent is correct give me littler patience for folks that don't respect the sport or constantly complain. Shooters of higher skill sometimes forget just how limited the fields skill can be when it comes to negotiating different aspects of the game. Sometimes it's as simple as a new starting position. Whenever I hear statements like "we need to challenge and expose the shooter to a higher skill set" I duck for cover. it's never been our job to create better shooters. I want variety. But just cause I can doesn't mean I want 10" pistol targets at 12 yards. I can almost bet that Colt and Dan don't either.

+1

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Deuce,

 

I can't speak for everyone and my travels have been few compared to you and some others.

 

BUT, I can say that of the big matches I've attended, I've always felt that the Match Directors have honestly tried to accommodate the aspect of our game/sport of which you mentioned in your above post.

 

I appreciate the time spent to insure that not only will the Super kids enjoy the match, but also the Seniors and Elders.

 

Its a tough job and I must say the Michigan State match has a well earned reputation of being one of the BEST dang matches anywhere.

 

So you must be doing something right.

 

 

..........Widder

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Close and big or far and small. It all comes down to what each of us wants to put into it. Dedication to perfect practice not just "practice" is what sets todays shooter apart.. Watching and shooting with fast young guns or slow old guns its all about "having fun" and bringin em back for more.

 

I personally think it's great that we have 12-13 year olds challenging for titles nationwide. It shows the depth of our sport when all ages have that chance to run a good stage. Those that put in the time and "perfect practice" can shoot with the best of the SASS shooters and still get excited when they blaze a stage, clear a knock down rack, shoot a swinger stage clean. These same shooters will rise to the top on the more difficult distances and target sizes. This was proven at EOT this year with the World Record Stage. Targets set way out there reasonable sized and the Buckaroo record was beaten by better than 2 seconds and was shot clean not once but twice by the shooter!

 

The important thing is that SASS preserves a piece of history that was all but forgotten. It introduces people from all walks of life to shooting sports and brings a very large group of like minded people together enjoying a freedom we all need to protect.

 

I like being around CAS and really good shooters. CAS's are a fun bunch and we need to promote that as our strong suit to attract more shooters. Fast-good shooters make me a better shooter-cause I learn something all the time. So bring on those Silver Seniors and Buckaroos that can kick my but--cause one day-one stage I just might beat em!

 

And for those of you that don't get excited at a match or after running a stage or don't support a match cause the targets are to close or to far or you don't like the Match Director--your only hurting yourself and the sport. It's a lot of work to figure out what the shooters want and please the majority trying to put on a good match. Shoot when you can where you can and support the privilege to carry those guns!

 

MT Pockets

Well said..................

 

I out shot the Kid the first couple months! :)

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I wrote my first State Championship match this year...oy...

 

My guiding principle: Have variety...make sure that the bottom 1/3 have fun.

 

My lesson: Not everyone will be happy...oh, and re-word some pistol strings ;)

 

My apologies to all those that write stages whom I've insulted in the past...I may not like the stages, but I respect the time and effort that went into them.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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I think we have rode this horse to the ground.He ain't dead but close.Big and close or small and far,I don't think anyone that loves this game really cares.I know the top shooters will do great on any size target or at any distance.I love to shoot and yes I even hit the targets sometime.The other shooting sports have what they like.We can and do change out target sizes and the distances.I hope the other shoot sports have as much fun as we do.I don't worry about the other sports respecting out sport.The only respect that I worry about is the respect from the other cowboys and cowgirls that are in SASS.I think that SASS top shooters,cowboys and cowgirls would do great in any of the other shooting sports.Don't think they would have as much FUN.Phantom you did good.I hope you get to write the Texas State stages again this year.I will be there and want ask you so many ?????

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I think we have rode this horse to the ground.He ain't dead but close.Big and close or small and far,I don't think anyone that loves this game really cares.I know the top shooters will do great on any size target or at any distance.I love to shoot and yes I even hit the targets sometime.The other shooting sports have what they like.We can and do change out target sizes and the distances.I hope the other shoot sports have as much fun as we do.I don't worry about the other sports respecting out sport.The only respect that I worry about is the respect from the other cowboys and cowgirls that are in SASS.I think that SASS top shooters,cowboys and cowgirls would do great in any of the other shooting sports.Don't think they would have as much FUN.Phantom you did good.I hope you get to write the Texas State stages again this year.I will be there and want ask you so many ?????

I think you said it very well. I remember back when if you rode a Kawasaki, or Honda, you didn't get respect from the motorcycle riders, because it wasn't a Harley. If you didn't have multi-engine ratings, you were looked down on and not given respect. In boating, if you didn't have a yatch, no respect by the bigger boaters.

Whatever the thoughts are, near or far, small or large, the outcomes and thoughts and respect from within, are what counts. And if looking for respect from other shooting games or avenues, how far are you willing to go to please them to earn "their" respect? Add movement with loaded cocked firearms, etc. ? Its not just targets, I hear some say we look silly in our costumes, and having to dress to shoot. So do we give up costuming to earn respect?

Respect comes from within. MT

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I'll add another thought. We have to set MI State match next week and it always weighs heavy on my mind as a match director how do I challenge out top 10% yet entertain my Uncle Johnny at 80 years old who likes to go fast AND hit targets. The very truth of the matter is that in most cases match directors and stage writers do the very best we can. Sitting at the kitchen table with my wife for hours on end writing stages and then watching her spend endless hours formatting and typing up the final product so the intent is correct give me littler patience for folks that don't respect the sport or constantly complain. Shooters of higher skill sometimes forget just how limited the fields skill can be when it comes to negotiating different aspects of the game. Sometimes it's as simple as a new starting position. Whenever I hear statements like "we need to challenge and expose the shooter to a higher skill set" I duck for cover. it's never been our job to create better shooters. I want variety. But just cause I can doesn't mean I want 10" pistol targets at 12 yards. I can almost bet that Colt and Dan don't either.

 

Thanks for doing what you do pard - and that goes for all the MD's who work HARD behind the scenes for us pards.

 

G (the guy who goes to the hotel after the day is over so he can jump in the pool ;) )G ~ :FlagAm:

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I'm thinking that Colt (and others including me) believes that the current trend of stage design favors those that can manipulate the firearms at a high rate of speed without MUCH regard to aiming. Let's be honest.....it does. That's not to say that the ability to manipulate should be looked down upon. It is a definite SKILL and a hard one to develop. Hell if it was easy everybody would do it.

 

The current crop of youngsters are not the first ones to win.......Lead Dispencer, Badlands Bud, Holy Terror did not win because the targets where in there faces. They were young, fast and awesome SHOOTERS. The real issue is we don't get to see how well rounded the current crop is because our matches have become one dimensional.

 

It takes a certain skill level to run a 13 second stage.

It takes a fearless mental attitude to do it.

 

It takes a certain skill level to run an 17 second stage when the targets aren't in your face.

It takes mental discipline to negotiate a stage that is not set up to be run in 13 seconds.

 

Maybe our matches should showcase the ability to do BOTH.

 

Personally I don't think the outcome would change that much if the matches were multidimensional.

 

GOOD SHOOTERS will still come out on top....be they young or old.

 

Stan

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" If big and close is as challenging and deserves as much respect as earlier CAS target scenarios and other shooting sports, how many other shooting sports have 12 and 13 year olds challenging for over-all world, National, and Regional titles?"

 

 

Colt,

It's not the BIG and close targets that allow the youngsters in our sport to fly like they do. The ones competing for overall have put in more practice time than you and I combined!

 

 

 

Sooo why is it you don't hear of a young 12 or 13 year old putting tons of practice in to another sport like IPSC challenging for National and World championships? It would be all over the firearms media for sure.

 

I never said they don't deserve it. Hell if I only had to worry about an hours worth of home work I'd dry fire for 4 hours a day to.

 

 

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I'm thinking that Colt (and others including me) believes that the current trend of stage design favors those that can manipulate the firearms at a high rate of speed without MUCH regard to aiming. Let's be honest.....it does. That's not to say that the ability to manipulate should be looked down upon. It is a definite SKILL and a hard one to develop. Hell if it was easy everybody would do it.

 

The current crop of youngsters are not the first ones to win.......Lead Dispencer, Badlands Bud, Holy Terror did not win because the targets where in there faces. They were young, fast and awesome SHOOTERS. The real issue is we don't get to see how well rounded the current crop is because our matches have become one dimensional.

 

 

 

It takes a certain skill level to run a 13 second stage.

It takes a fearless mental attitude to do it.

 

It takes a certain skill level to run an 17 second stage when the targets aren't in your face.

It takes mental discipline to negotiate a stage that is not set up to be run in 13 seconds.

 

Maybe our matches should showcase the ability to do BOTH.

 

Personally I don't think the outcome would change that much if the matches were multidimensional.

 

GOOD SHOOTERS will still come out on top....be they young or old.

 

Stan

 

 

 

 

I believe both Bud and Spence were 16 or over before any titles above a state championships were won. Over-all that is. I could be mistaken on that.

 

Anyway there is a huge difference between 12 or 13 and 16 years of age.

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I'll add another thought. We have to set MI State match next week and it always weighs heavy on my mind as a match director how do I challenge out top 10% yet entertain my Uncle Johnny at 80 years old who likes to go fast AND hit targets. The very truth of the matter is that in most cases match directors and stage writers do the very best we can. Sitting at the kitchen table with my wife for hours on end writing stages and then watching her spend endless hours formatting and typing up the final product so the intent is correct give me littler patience for folks that don't respect the sport or constantly complain. Shooters of higher skill sometimes forget just how limited the fields skill can be when it comes to negotiating different aspects of the game. Sometimes it's as simple as a new starting position. Whenever I hear statements like "we need to challenge and expose the shooter to a higher skill set" I duck for cover. it's never been our job to create better shooters. I want variety. But just cause I can doesn't mean I want 10" pistol targets at 12 yards. I can almost bet that Colt and Dan don't either.

 

 

 

 

Your right I don't want 12" pistol targets at 10 yrds. Plus you got to remember that Uncle Johny is a phenom!!!!!

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Obviously we've fleshed this out pretty well. It's hard not to agree with those like Colt, Phantom, Deuce, Happy, Stan and others that not only have shot this game a long time but have had the fortitude to take up the leadership to develop the stages and rules that provide the platform/framework for us shooters to argue about what it is we like as well as air out what we "THINK" we might like versus what outsiders perceptions might be of the game and of us as shooters.

4 pages without a bunch of name calling indicates to me that either Allie Mo :wub: has deleted a lot or we're a lot closer on most of this and each other than some other discussions in the past. As an observer (and I read it all end to end) to a person it seems to me that all the MD's here care deeply about us shooters and whether the product they are delivering serves to satisfy old/ young; new/veteran; fast/ slow; accurate/ challenged shooters with enough variety that we'll all have a few favorite stages and a fun time at their shoots.

 

It also sounds like these fine folks listen intently to the comments and criticisms that come their way and try to anticipate as much as possible how they can make it better before you or I know it is better.

 

No wonder this is so much fun!

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This has been a dialogue...sometimes interesting. Here's a couple of things that I've been thinking about.

 

1) What's the percentage of clean shooters at a "big & close" match? If it's 50%...or even 25%, perhaps you haven't challenged the shooters enough. If it's 1 shooter....like that "famous" annual match in Texas that prides itself on killing clean matches....well, that's probably not the ticket either.

 

2) Winter Range, during the 4 or 5 years that I attended, seemed to have relatively challenging revolver distances and WAY too easy rifle distances. I don't know why. But that's the way they set it up. And, those easy rifle targets created their own problems. People got a little lazy and missed. Or who knows what all. I remember shooting the first stage of the match with the Match Director, and he missed the first rifle target of the first stage on the first day....after working 361 days to get that match set up right. Stuff happens.

 

3) The match needs to be set up for the people in the middle. They are the ones who pay the bills. And they are the ones most likely not to walk away with a trophy. If it isn't fun for them, they won't come back. You lose the middle and you lose the competition. If a small group of fast guys want to have their own match...they can always do that. If you want 200 people at a state championship...well, you'd better make it fun for the middle.

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