THE NEW NORMAL IN POLICE/ CITIZEN CONTACT?

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A8r4MK3R4PI

 

On March 16, 2013, my son and I were hiking along country roads among pastures and fields with my 15-year old son to help him earn his hiking merit badge. I always enjoy these father/son hikes because it gives me time alone with my son. As I always do when we go on these hikes and walks, I took my trusty rifle with me as there are coyotes, wild hogs, and cougars in our area. In Texas, it is legal to openly carry a rifle or shotgun as long as you do so in a manner that isn't calculated to cause alarm. In other words, you can't walk around waving your rifle at people. I always carry my rifle slung across my chest dangling, not holding it in my hands.

At about the 5 mile mark of our hike, a voice behind us asked us to stop and the officer motioned for us to approach him. He got out of his car and met us a few feet later. He asked us what we were doing and I explained that we were hiking for my son's merit badge. He then asked me what I'm doing with the rifle, to which I responded in a calm manner, "Does it matter, officer? Am I breaking the law?"

At that point, the officer grabbed my rifle without warning or indication. He didn't ask for my rifle and he didn't suggest he would take it from me. He simply grabbed it. This startled me and I instantly pulled back - the rifle was attached to me - and I asked what he thought he was doing because he's not taking my rifle. He then pulled his service pistol on me and told me to take my hands off the weapon and move to his car, which I complied with. He then slammed me into the hood of his car and I remembered I had a camera on me (one of the requirements of the hiking merit badge is to document your hikes). This video is the rest of that encounter. Up to this point, I am not told why I am being stopped, why he tried to disarm me, or even that I'm under arrest.

We did not set out that Saturday morning to "make a point" or cause problems. Our goal was to complete a 10-mile hike and return home without incident. My son chose a route that away from populated areas but near our home.

The arresting officer is Officer Steve Ermis and the supervisor is Sergeant Minnicks of the Temple Police Department.

If you agree this was a gross act of exceeded authority, please help me fight these charges:http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/2nd-amendment-legal-defense-fund

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

The way I look at it this: I am a supporter of the 2nd Amendment. Defending our rights depends on winning cases like this one. This happened in the state of Texas! It happened to a decorated active duty US ARMY Counterintelligence officer who has served in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

Too often we have allowed a steady chipping away at our rights without asserting our rights as law abiding Americans. The legal fees alone for this will exceed what has been raised so far. I can't imagine trying to afford to defend myself in court on service pay.

 

Let's mount an offensive wherever we can, whenever we can! You may be next!

[Three Foot Johnson]

3:50

 

"We are exempt from the law"...

 

... unfortunately, that sums up the attitude of far too many authority figures.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

A little research and the story gets even worse...

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04/16/decorated-vet-arrested-after-rudely-displaying-his-rifle-says-officer-pulled-gun-on-him-in-front-of-boy-scouts/

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Well I gotta say.....

 

This guy could have really helped himself a lot before and during the encounter. "Legal or not", if you walk down the street in front of my house with an AR strapped on, military style, I am gonna call the cops - period. And, mouthing off at the cops, irritated as he was, is never a good idea. The camera is a good idea but that tape can be used on both sides of this case because we don't know what really happened before the video was rolling.

 

If you got a coyote problem, carry a hunting rifle on a regular sling. We are in the middle of a very emotionally charged debate over these kinds of guns so why wave a red flag in front of the bull? Even if the cops are dead-wrong, comply, say little, give them nothing in the way of an argument. When you get in front of the judge with legal counsel, then you can let it all hang out - where it matters.

 

Should any of these suggestions matter? In point of fact no, not in the eyes of the law, but it may have been the difference between being put in the back seat of a squad car and a lecture from Johnny Law about "public display".

 

Look, I think this is B.S.. The cops should have determined what he was up to, checked his I.D. and let him walk, but they didn't. That's the way it is right now in this country and I think it's sad.

 

Hope it goes your way.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

GEEEZZZZZ..... we've lost it ....already... we don't have the balls that a gay parade in San Francisico has. At least they asserted their rights and took the battle to the streets.

 

Now gun owners are in the closet?

 

Now who'da thunk that?

[Cusz M. Dutch]

Does anybody know if the officer had a dash camera? Now a days most do.

[Assassin]

I've got no problem with someone walking down my road with an AR strapped to them. Cops should have been more tactful while questioning the guy.

Then again, I would have cuffed the guy to the push bar and left the hot engine running. Guess that's why I'm not a deputy anymore.

 

LL'

[Concho Billy]

 

The guy went out looking for a confrontation and he got his wish, if you support this type behavior irrational, goofy behavior go ahead and support him.......

[Silver Sam, SASS #34718L]

In Texas it is legal to carry an uncased long gun as long as it is not displayed in a threatening manner.

Once someone called the cops the officer had no choice but to go and see what you were up to.

And the law says that the officer can disarm you if he feels there may be a threat.

Did the officer over-react.... Probably.

Unfortunately, in todays world you cant draw a picture of a gun without someone feeling threatened................

I’ve had almost the exact same thing happen to me .

What I did was to hand my gun over to the cop so he would know that I was not a threat.

Then he asked if I had a carry license, which I did and showed it to him.

Then he checked to make sure there were no warrants out for me and when he got the OK

he handed my guns back to me and we spent the next 10 min talking about guns & shooting and then went our separate ways.

I wish your situation had ended the same way as mine...

Good Luck!

[Marcus (Doc) Arroyo #40370]

Reading the article makes me wonder...if an officer would not let the child out of the car without the child answering questions, is that false impisionment, or kidknapping? Is questioning a minor without a guardian present legal in Texas?

 

I wasn't there, but I believe some officers are soon to be ex-Barney Fifes.

[Concho Billy]

 

In Texas it is legal to carry an uncased long gun as long as it is not displayed in a threatening manner.

Once someone called the cops the officer had no choice but to go and see what you were up to.

And the law says that the officer can disarm you if he feels there may be a threat.

Did the officer over-react.... Probably.

Unfortunately, in todays world you cant draw a picture of a gun without someone feeling threatened................

I’ve had almost the exact same thing happen to me .

What I did was to hand my gun over to the cop so he would know that I was not a threat.

Then he asked if I had a carry license, which I did and showed it to him.

Then he checked to make sure there were no warrants out for me and when he got the OK

he handed my guns back to me and we spent the next 10 min talking about guns & shooting and then went our separate ways.

I wish your situation had ended the same way as mine...

Good Luck!

See this is rational behavior and it works.......why would anyone want the sergeant to represent gun owners, I sure do not!

[Concho Billy]

Wild Boar and Cougars in Temple Texas, Not likely.

[Chantry]

I would suggest wanting more information before making a judgement on this and not just making a judgement based on a non-objective source.

 

I also remember seeing something that states that under Texas law, a LEO can disarm a citizen until the LEO is satisfied that the citizen is not a committing a crime.

[Concho Billy]

I would suggest wanting more information before making a judgement on this and not just making a judgement based on a non-objective source.

 

I also remember seeing something that states that under Texas law, a LEO can disarm a citizen until the LEO is satisfied that the citizen is not a committing a crime.

I can assure you that no Texas lawman worth his own salt is going to stand and speak with an armed man in the middle of the street while investigating a call like this......this guy was looking for a reaction in my opinion and he got it.......now if the guy had a pistol hidden away and had a carry license, no problem.......walking down the street with a rifle is going to cause alarm and anyone that doesn't understand that is just out of touch.

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

Sounds like over reaction all the way around. As for the Wild critter protection issue...you didn't think you were covered with a .45 on your hip? Must be some real tough animals down there in Temple Texas. There is what is legal and then there is what is smart. I hope you get out of this without any more trouble, but if you are going to carry a gun in the open (especially an "evil" black gun) your going to get some attention from the cops. They are already stressed out, arguing with them only raises the stress level and when that happens, its pretty likely you are going to see the inside of a jail and get to pay some lawyer's fees.

 

Besides, I think this belongs on a different forum.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

GEEEZZZZZ..... we've lost it ....already... we don't have the balls that a gay parade in San Francisico has. At least they asserted their rights and took the battle to the streets.

 

Now gun owners are in the closet?

 

Now who'da thunk that?

 

BK,

 

Do I have the "right" to walk through the projects at 3:00AM with a $100.00 bill tied around my neck? Yes. Is it good common sense? No. This is not about what is between your legs, its about what is between your ears.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

GEEEZZZZZ..... we've lost it ....already... we don't have the balls that a gay parade in San Francisico has.

 

 

Exactomundo.

But B.K. lighten up a bit. At least us cowboys have the courage to blog about it, call and write our Congressman, storm Twitter and fill out every damned redundant poll and form letter petition the NRA and GOA will put out that will simply fall on deaf ears.

Sure this guy didn't take "smart, safe" action but at least he has the nads to pick a real fight. I salute him.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

In Texas it is legal to carry an uncased long gun as long as it is not displayed in a threatening manner.

Once someone called the cops the officer had no choice but to go and see what you were up to.

And the law says that the officer can disarm you if he feels there may be a threat.

Did the officer over-react.... Probably.

 

Unfortunately, in todays world you cant draw a picture of a gun without someone feeling threatened................

 

I’ve had almost the exact same thing happen to me .

What I did was to hand my gun over to the cop so he would know that I was not a threat.

Then he asked if I had a carry license, which I did and showed it to him.

Then he checked to make sure there were no warrants out for me and when he got the OK

he handed my guns back to me and we spent the next 10 min talking about guns & shooting and then went our separate ways.

I wish your situation had ended the same way as mine...

Good Luck!

My turn was about like yours. Sighting in a new blackhawk in my dad's rural side yard, cops called "kid" with gun (a few weeks after Columbine). Of course they sent the cavalry. I was 40, dad was 61, no KID present. After handing off the gun, (refused to put it down in the crushed stone), and after showing the trooper HOW to clear it while he had me at gunpoint, they checked my CCW, WorW, and let me go.

 

[Anvil Al #59168]

 

In Texas it is legal to carry an uncased long gun as long as it is not displayed in a threatening manner.

Once someone called the cops the officer had no choice but to go and see what you were up to.

And the law says that the officer can disarm you if he feels there may be a threat.

Did the officer over-react.... Probably.

Unfortunately, in todays world you cant draw a picture of a gun without someone feeling threatened................

I’ve had almost the exact same thing happen to me .

What I did was to hand my gun over to the cop so he would know that I was not a threat.

Then he asked if I had a carry license, which I did and showed it to him.

Then he checked to make sure there were no warrants out for me and when he got the OK

he handed my guns back to me and we spent the next 10 min talking about guns & shooting and then went our separate ways.

I wish your situation had ended the same way as mine...

Good Luck!

 

 

+1

 

ATTITUDE

The attitude of the person goes a LONG WAYS on how you will be treated.

 

They have a call of someone with a gun being aggressive with a gun.. OF COURSE they are going to disarm you when they get there.

I mean DUH. If YOU was a cop getting that call.

You would not disarm him FIRST. And THEN see what is going on. Police need to take CONTROL first. THEN see what is going on.

 

Would like to know what would have happeded if he would have just been nice and handed it over. Then show the his permit and

let them know what was going on in a polite way.

 

Got to tell ya. How this guy reacted set the cops in motion.

 

Yes he had the right. But he sure could have handled it better his own self.

 

SORRY. But after watching all the vids on this thing. He casued a lot of it.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

He's a law abiding citizen until he has committed a crime. He is innocent and presumed innocent until proven guilty. He has the right to resist search and seizure and has the right to possess a firearm. He had not committed a crime, and the cop feeling threatened is not just cause for his search and seizure. The officer can ask for him to disarm HIMSELF but can NOT forcibly disarm him without just cause. I won't cite the Supreme Court cases, but they are plentiful.

This will not end well for the cops, as he now has the right to take this all the way. They forcibly disarmed a citizen and neglected several of his constitutional rights. They are RIGHTS. They don't have to be proven first, they come first. Break the law and you can lose some of your rights, but their sequence of protocol here is in the wrong order and they're liable for that.

What is wrong with us that we as a law abiding citizenry condone the act of forcibly violating your civil rights as an AMERICAN CITZEN based on attitude? Frankly, I'm disappointed.

[Griff]

BK,

 

Do I have the "right" to walk through the projects at 3:00AM with a $100.00 bill tied around my neck? Yes. Is it good common sense? No. This is not about what is between your legs, its about what is between your ears.

+1

 

 

In Texas it is legal to carry an uncased long gun as long as it is not displayed in a threatening manner.

Once someone called the cops the officer had no choice but to go and see what you were up to.

And the law says that the officer can disarm you if he feels there may be a threat.

Did the officer over-react.... Probably.

Unfortunately, in todays world you cant draw a picture of a gun without someone feeling threatened................

I’ve had almost the exact same thing happen to me .

What I did was to hand my gun over to the cop so he would know that I was not a threat.

Then he asked if I had a carry license, which I did and showed it to him.

Then he checked to make sure there were no warrants out for me and when he got the OK

he handed my guns back to me and we spent the next 10 min talking about guns & shooting and then went our separate ways.

I wish your situation had ended the same way as mine...

Good Luck!

Exactly right. Attitude is the difference between a pleasant chat and a ride to the lock-up. Not knowing what when on BEFORE the tape started... (beyond what one side SEZ what did), but once the tape started, this guy did nothing but cop an attitude that will nearly always get you your free ride to the pokey or a ticket. Oh yeah, cop an attitude? Contempt of Police.

 

I can assure you that no Texas lawman worth his own salt is going to stand and speak with an armed man in the middle of the street while investigating a call like this......this guy was looking for a reaction in my opinion and he got it.......now if the guy had a pistol hidden away and had a carry license, no problem.......walking down the street with a rifle is going to cause alarm and anyone that doesn't understand that is just out of touch.

And within your rights as a law enforcement officer to do so. SCOTUS decision from many years ago. You (as an officer), don't even have to "feel threatened", just have to state "...for my safety and yours..."

 

As far as the article went, the worst thing the police allegedly did was telling the son, "...you're not getting out of this car until you answer my questions..." That was illegal.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

There's another thread on this topic with some excellent posts. http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=205046&hl=

[Most Wanted]

I'd rather you had made your point without your 15 year old son in tow.I dont agree with your tatics but I do hope you win your case.

[Boondock Saint, #70146]

So, If I understand correctly the responses that I am reading, it is OK for law enforcement to violate your rights and arrest you, if you have a bad attitude?

 

Man, to think that, for all of these years I thought you needed to be a criminal, or at least a suspected criminal, to be arrested. Turns out you just have to have a bad attitude.

 

It's a real shame that the man that ended up in the back seat seemed to have a much better fundamental understanding of the law than the men who were there to enforce it. Was he a jerk? Maybe. Was he a criminal? I don't think so.

 

I know a lot of people that are jerks. It doesn't make them criminals.

 

If that man deserved to be arrested and taken to jail, then we might as well wad up the Constitution and hand everything over to the lefties.

[Blackwater 53393]

Turns out that the officers were likely outside of their jurisdiction! This apparently happened in a rural area outside of Temple.

 

As far as critters in suburban and rural areas, 'til you've dealt with feral hogs, which are prevailent in much of the area in question, don't discount the need for carrying a good long gun!!!

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Attitude is important. The officer's attitude. I am not a criminal. I am a citizen. Law Enforcement WORKS for ME. I understand it is a difficult, dangerous job, not one that I care to try to do. However, I pay the taxes for that person to have and do his/her job. I do have rights. I also have responsibilities. However, I do not take kindly nor do I appreciate being treated as a criminal when no crime has been committed. Yes, the officer has a right to be secure, investigate, etc., but not in the way this story seems to be unfolding. For any LEO looking for a job, I believe Temple, Texas, soon will have an opening or two.

[Colonel Dan, SASS #24025]

I appreciate the fact that this is a topic that stirs the blood in American patriots but it seems to me we've applied overwhelming force to the same horse twice on this forum alone. How about we move on to other horses that need a whuppin'?