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Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217

PaleWolf Brunelle

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PS to Bad Hombre: Just call or email Hipshot and ask him PWB's standing on the Wire for the ROC. Or would you question Hipshot's reply without also hearing it from Tex, Coyote, Judge, and General too?

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Oh heaven help me...

 

Here's a very likely scenario (and I've seen it happen). New shooter shoota a stage, misses a bunch, and deserves an UNQUESTIONED P. TO says, I'm gonna let shooter just take the misses. Am I a HA for thinking that is not right. Beeellleeive me I had ooodles of misses and many Ps when I started. It never ruined my enthusiasm for shooting.

 

When did this disregard for rules start? Is it a good thing?

 

Naw, I think you don't "get" a P....you earn it. :) If you earned one, then ya get one. The RO/TO didn't "give" it to you, you got it all by yourself. Besides, if you've got that many misses, what does +10 really mean anyways..... :rolleyes:

 

Chick

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Naw, I think you don't "get" a P....you earn it. :) If you earned one, then ya get one. The RO/TO didn't "give" it to you, you got it all by yourself. Besides, if you've got that many misses, what does +10 really mean anyways..... :rolleyes:

 

Chick

Hello Chick,

 

Often, not giving an "earned" P bumps the shooter ahead of someone else. The following is from p. 15 of the ROI, "If a Range Officer elects not to penalize a shooter that has not complied with a rule, the effect is penalizing all other match participants that did comply." Well, it might not penalize all; but it is likely to penalize some.

 

Am I alone in thinking things are getting out of hand?

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Hello Chick,

 

Often, not giving an "earned" P bumps the shooter ahead of someone else. The following is from p. 15 of the ROI, "If a Range Officer elects not to penalize a shooter that has not complied with a rule, the effect is penalizing all other match participants that did comply." Well, it might not penalize all; but it is likely to penalize some.

 

Am I alone in thinking things are getting out of hand?

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

Sorry. Re-read my reply and I guess I wasn't as clear as it was in my head.... :rolleyes:

 

You "earn" a P and you get a P. If I'm the shooter with 9 misses on the stage, then my thinking is "what's another 10 seconds?" Maybe that makes it clearer. You earned a P, you get a P.

 

 

.....and yes, "things" have been out of hand for awhile.....where you been? :) .....oh, you're talking about here on the wire.....well, that too. :lol:

 

Chick

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Oh heaven help me...

 

Here's a very likely scenario (and I've seen it happen). New shooter shoota a stage, misses a bunch, and deserves an UNQUESTIONED P. TO says, I'm gonna let shooter just take the misses. Am I a HA for thinking that is not right. Beeellleeive me I had ooodles of misses and many Ps when I started. It never ruined my enthusiasm for shooting.

 

When did this disregard for rules start? Is it a good thing?

 

It is fine for a top shooter to say, let the poor smuck go. :rolleyes: We're just having fun here. :rolleyes: What about the poor smuck who would have finished second to last had the correct call been made.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

To answer your question, 'Yes' , you are a HA in your stated thread... IMNOHO.

 

That is sometimes called piling on or blind siding your opponent in football lingo. Perhaps legal but not good sportsmanship. Isn't that what a good part of SASS is about,,,'sportsmanship'? Treating people like you would like to be treated?

 

Disregard for rules? Try humanity. You only need to hammer a person so far down before they are out. You don't have to rub their nose in it.... A train wreck is a train wreck and you don't have to demolish the caboose to prove that is was a good train wreck of a stage.

 

Take a chill pill, you will feel better tomorrow. :huh:

 

 

Blastmaster

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Oh heaven help me...

 

Here's a very likely scenario (and I've seen it happen). New shooter shoota a stage, misses a bunch, and deserves an UNQUESTIONED P. TO says, I'm gonna let shooter just take the misses. Am I a HA for thinking that is not right. Beeellleeive me I had ooodles of misses and many Ps when I started. It never ruined my enthusiasm for shooting.

 

When did this disregard for rules start? Is it a good thing?

 

It is fine for a top shooter to say, let the poor smuck go. :rolleyes: We're just having fun here. :rolleyes: What about the poor smuck who would have finished second to last had the correct call been made.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

But I bet you being a stand up person ya called that P on um!! How else are they going to learn!!

Cause you wouldn't want to be part of the problem, but part of the solution!!

Disregard for rules has been going on for a long time, mostly because of being written vaguely, open for opinion, interpreted differently by every other posse, in every other part of the country.

Till a lot of folks wouldn't call them at all.

A lot of work has been done on rules by some good people and their a lot better today!!!

I've never agreed with the "you get called for that at the BIG match".

I'd sure rather learn at the SMALL match!!

Enforcement of all rules are important at all matches!!!!

That's why we need good written rules and good written scenarios.

BH

PS to Allie Mo: I have never questioned PWBs standing so I don't need you or anyone else to vouch for his authenticity.When he says "It's not a rule" I take his word for it...Don't you!!

And I took your "memo" as a joke hence the :P , maybe you need heavens help more than I.

Is that why you keep asking for it...if so, I hope you get it!!

Best wishes :D

BH

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So, B & BH,

 

By your "logic," we should ensure that the last place person gets his/her Ps, long times, or misses disregarded too. After all, isn't it piling on for them too. :rolleyes:

 

When that happens, I would consider ignoring the second to last place person's Ps.

 

Please let me restate from the rules, you do support following written rules, according to your posts. The following is from p. 15 of the ROI, "If a Range Officer elects not to penalize a shooter that has not complied with a rule, the effect is penalizing all other match participants that did comply."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Blastmaster, Your comment about humanity is a joke when you stoop to personal attacks rather than arguing the issues being discussed. "Take a chill pill..." really. :rolleyes:

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Dang!

 

I hate to keep replying. However, I want you to know how I count. I rely on what I see/know happened. Not on who is shooting.

 

It is the only way to be fair to all.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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When PWB makes a Ruling - that is the Rule

 

I believe he welcomes questioning.

 

If he concludes he is in error, he will correct it.

 

But until he decides to correct it, his opinion is the Rule

 

PWB providing Rulings has, in my opinion been a stabilizing impact on the sport.

 

He has my utmost respect and thanks.

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Sorry. Re-read my reply and I guess I wasn't as clear as it was in my head.... :rolleyes:

 

You "earn" a P and you get a P. If I'm the shooter with 9 misses on the stage, then my thinking is "what's another 10 seconds?" Maybe that makes it clearer. You earned a P, you get a P.

 

 

.....and yes, "things" have been out of hand for awhile.....where you been? :) .....oh, you're talking about here on the wire.....well, that too. :lol:

 

Chick

Hey Chick,

 

I reread your post and yep it was clear. Guess I was just "flinching." If you don't know what I mean by that and want to know, send me a PM. ;)

 

C0ckr0ach, thank you for stating your support for our friend/pard/mentor... I agree! :) It's nice to see at least a few on topic posts instead of all the... Never mind. :rolleyes:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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And now the naive guy steps into the fray...

I am not an old hand at SASS and therefore my words may not carry as much weight as the more established members of this community think theres do. What I have not seen mentioned too much is "common sense". I think that if there is a person appointed to be the spokesperson for the RO committe, then to me it is common sense that his/her word is final on a given subject ubless the RO committee publicly over-rules that person. Someone has to be the central clearinghouse or their is no concenses and things break down pretty darn quickly. I have never met Pale Wolf Brunelle nor hve I ever played him on TV. Probably would not know him if he was drinking a beer next to me. However, I am comfortable with the idea that if he speaks as the voice of the RO committee, I don't need to question it. I may or may not like it, but I will abide by what he said until overruled by the RO committee.

 

Common sense has not been mentioned in regards to the subject of non-uniform application of the rules. As a person that started this game not so long ago, I worked darn hard to understand the rules and shhot the stages without a 'P'. Each 'P' I got was and still is a learning experience that helps me get better. I will tell you that I know each and every 'P' I have been nailed with was not from bad stage writting or a bad RO. It was because I had a brain fart and did the course wrong. I learned to focus better and to pay attention better each time I got one. Don't think you are helping the novice by not calling all their misses or 'Ps'. You are depriving them of valuable learning that will rise up and bit them later if they don't get to play the game like everyone else. I also feel it is a bot patronizing and condesending to let the newbie slide on miss count and ignoring 'Ps'.

 

I love this game we play and I truely enjoy the people I have met that also love to play it. No one starts out being "Evil Roy" or "Long Hunter". They start out and they miss targets and get 'Ps'. Let them learn from their mistakes and profit from the lesson.

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I have great respect for PWBs posts and look forward to his opinions on issues. Normally they appear to be the end of it.

But his posts are fleeting! How can a sport exist with rules and interpretations that are not summarized in a consolidated place.

How are we supposed to compete in the same event if the rules are not available to all of us?

They are not written down in the national register.

They are not a part of the rule book that we shoot matches according to.

If they are what happens if you are not on line when they are posted. They scroll the screen rather fast.

 

If the rulings of the RO Committee are to be viewed like the SCOTUS then we need a national register or something that summarizes them into one place.

 

Note also that when PWB posts IMO (which normally means "In my Opinion").

Should we always take PWBs IMO as meaning "In the opinion of the RO Committee"?

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With the risk of gettin nauseated from the methane issuing forth from this hot tub party, I'd like to make an observation:

 

There are no definitive sweep conventions in SASS. I can tell you that I've shot a Badger Sweep at 4 different clubs and NONE of them were the same as the other 3 clubs.

 

When you write stages clearly, you reduce confusion. When you do not, you end up with hard feelings....and an occasional set of twisted panties on the Wire.

 

Having said all that, I'd like to say that I consider Pale Wolf a good pard and as knowledgeable as they come. But he can't know every nuance a club injects into its local rules or stage writing. And sweep conventions aren't rules, as I mentioned.

 

As to the sweep noted in the other thread, I don't really give a rat's ass. We've had a couple of good SASS members die this week, one get brain cancer and Jim Arness is headed for the dirt.

 

I can think of a lot more important things to think about than a sweep.

 

Good day.

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Is that all he is, Dang I thought he was Supreme Court Justice, or a Rock Star.

 

Even a Supreme Court Justice has to get a majority before he can say "That's the rule".

 

BH :P

ok

apply that statement bout gettin a majority,

abbly that to SASS and pale wolf and we may never git rullings in a timely manner (and done by volenteers)

geeeeeeeeeeeeeese

 

I have shot with him at EOT

the feller is a man to ride the river with

thats a fact

 

bad hombre, ya might want to requet to shoot with him some day on a posse

 

how often we forgit that SASS is a hobby / past time

put on mostly by volenteers

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I love our sport :wub:

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

oh...sorry, I guess that would be off topic :lol:

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What is great about the SASS wire is that you get a LEARNED and STUDIED opinion from PWB. You get to think through everyone's "take" on the situation and weigh those thoughts against your own. There has been a time or two over the last year or two where I thought his take was not wrong, but incorrectly applied in the situation given.

What he has taught me to do is LISTEN to the situation and then FAIRLY apply the rules that I think apply. And then explain why I applied that rule to the shooter.

Most situations are cut and dried, but as we all know things can get complicated very quickly.

 

Unfortunately as Range Master or Match Director you don't have the time to make the phone call and ask for that opinion. The buck stops here for the most part. And unless the shooter wants to dig deep and come up with the protest money it stops there.

 

It helps if you ready to apologize for being wrong.

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Sure would dislike our CAS shoots turned into a political confutations after every match. :rolleyes: Reading between the lines is not required. All we need is common sense and the

ability to keep "FUN" a top priority. :wub:

Happy trails

QDG

P.S. I totally agree with Manatee, he tell it like it is.

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That is the exact reason, the rule and penalization there of, should be the same no matter who the Match director is!!

It's just like on one posse you get a P and on the other posse you don't!!

Or Our favorite saying "if you think it's a miss, it's a hit", well "if you think it's a P, it's not".

That's why we go by written rules or written stages not opinions!!!!!!!!!!

On the "sweep thread" half the people agree and half disagree, right there disallows the P under our "rule" doubt goes to the shooter.

As far as PWB goes his opinion is highly experienced and therefore respected, but he is part of the rules committee, not "the rules committee".

Until he announces "this is the way it is", "that's the rule', it's not a rule it's an opinion!!...He himself said it was not a rule!! Don't y'all believe him????

So I will keep the "P" in my bonnet until someone breaks a RULE and then I'll give it to them.

 

BH ;)

Well I tell you pard you show me the written rule about where a sweep starts or doesn't and then I'll agree with you. Until then you call it like you want and I will do the same.

 

Stan - who has NO doubt about his stance

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So, B & BH,

 

By your "logic," we should ensure that the last place person gets his/her Ps, long times, or misses disregarded too. After all, isn't it piling on for them too. :rolleyes:

 

When that happens, I would consider ignoring the second to last place person's Ps.

 

Please let me restate from the rules, you do support following written rules, according to your posts. The following is from p. 15 of the ROI, "If a Range Officer elects not to penalize a shooter that has not complied with a rule, the effect is penalizing all other match participants that did comply."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Blastmaster, Your comment about humanity is a joke when you stoop to personal attacks rather than arguing the issues being discussed. "Take a chill pill..." really. :rolleyes:

 

 

No personal attacks intended. No reason to argue either. You can call 'all' the penalties you see fit. Pile them 'all' on and double check to see you didn't miss any if that makes you feel good and just.

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Well I tell you pard you show me the written rule about where a sweep starts or doesn't and then I'll agree with you. Until then you call it like you want and I will do the same.

 

Stan - who has NO doubt about his stance

Hummmm!

There you go with that silly, show me the rule that doesn't exists again!!

You should know the rules by now.

The idea that "you call it your way and I'll call it my way" is wrong!!

That seems to be going over your head.

The idea that rules should be the same at all matches, is why they work on the rules so hard!!

 

Allie Mo: Logic...now that's funny right there!!

Logic from someone that wants to give a P for breaking the "we don't do it that way in these parts" rule.

Or the "gee I'm sorry that's not normal" rule.

I've always liked the "I always start on the left and you didn't" rule.

If someone breaks a real rule, give them a P...they earned it!!

Just don't make them up as you go.

 

Madd Mike: I'd love to shoot with PWB, he's put a lot into SASS, and I'm sure he calls the rules as they are!!

 

BH

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Hummmm!

There you go with that silly, show me the rule that doesn't exists again!!

You should know the rules by now.

The idea that "you call it your way and I'll call it my way" is wrong!!

That seems to be going over your head.

The idea that rules should be the same at all matches, is why they work on the rules so hard!!

 

Allie Mo: Logic...now that's funny right there!!

Logic from someone that wants to give a P for breaking the "we don't do it that way in these parts" rule.

Or the "gee I'm sorry that's not normal" rule.

I've always liked the "I always start on the left and you didn't" rule.

If someone breaks a real rule, give them a P...they earned it!!

Just don't make them up as you go.

 

Madd Mike: I'd love to shoot with PWB, he's put a lot into SASS, and I'm sure he calls the rules as they are!!

 

BH

Oh I get it now. I need a rule to prove I'm right and you don't. Yeah that's logical.

 

Stan

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Last time I had to make a tough call at a match I'm pretty sure PaleWolf weren't in me back pocket. (I'm purty sure I woulda noticed if he was.) I had to make that call all by my lonesome, have my call protested, kick it up to the next level and so on until it was decided once and for all. That's the way our sport works. Last time I checked, there wasn't a 1-800-call-Palewolf number on the flow chart or anywhere in the RO-I, II or SHB. Sometimes you gots to use some common sense! :blush:

 

In other words, PWB ain't a gonna be there when you make those calls, folks! After the fact, when you post whats-the-calls on the wire, you may or may not have all the pertenent info. And whatever call gets "made" well, garbage in, garbage out.

 

PWB is a pretty good AUTHORITY on rules. He's pretty good at figgering out what's what and if I was you'all, I'd listen. I'd also be a might skeptical at some of them recent posts where folks clearly READ into the description or the aforementioned "answer" on "rules" that ain't. If you ain't sure about such and such rule, read the book. If you can't figger it out, make your call and if the shooter disagrees he can go to the PM, MD and so on. Usually between all them people, SOMEONE has the right answer! If it isn't in the book then it isn't a RULE and no about of woulda, coulda, shoulda from ANYONE is gonna change that!

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When PWB responds to a rules question, I read no further.

 

Whether I like it or not, the rule has been interpreted and the question answered.

+1

Also I respect the man

I agree 100% Miz Allie. Thank you for making the point.

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Oh I get it now. I need a rule to prove I'm right and you don't. Yeah that's logical.

 

Stan

"No that would be a retarded statement"

If there was a rule it would apply equally to both of us.

There is NO RULE, how many times must I tell you!!!

But look at the bright side, when you go shoot tomorrow, picture me on the targets, and you might actually hit something for a change!!!!!!

 

BH :P:P:P:P:P

 

sweep right to left starting on T4

Betcha can't do it!!!!!

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Rules are one thing...sweep definitions are another. Different locations shoot things differently...

 

If any of you want to go and make definitions...go ahead.

 

This isn't about folks wanting to do sweeps a certain way just to have fun. Creativity means that folks can decide what works best for them!

 

Now you can go here or on the TG WIRE and tell folks how sick you are of us that have open interpretations if you want...try and make folks think that we're questioning PWB authority (which is really sad...) when his IMHO is just as valid as others when it comes to NON-RULE issues.

 

So has much as you'd like us bad "Creative" folks to be slapped with P's and SOG's...or just told to shut up, I don't think we'll change. We don't...or at least I don't, see this as an Ah-ha!, I'm going to pull a fast one on the spotters...but rather, what would allow me to run the most efficeintly through the stage.

 

Cheers...I'm going shooting in a few hours...should be fun.

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PWB and I have been good friends for the past 11 years or so

As far as I am concerned, He is the ultimate word on the SASS Rule Book.Fair,Impartial and a wealth of SASS knowledge.

I am proud to call him a friend and i have great respect for him

 

PWB and Quick Cal are the only two SASS Rules experts that i have ever consulted regarding the SASS rules and regs, and I have Ro'ed about every Big Match SASS has had,. from Winter Range to EOT to Bordertown..was always glad that PWB was on hand whenever i RO'ed a Major Match!

 

We met 11 or so years ago while shooting a match in Nevada together and I was RO and was involved in a very contentious and nasty

Penalty call that I made on a shooter i was ROing..PWB handled it wisely and judiciously and was my first experience with PWB.

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Hello,

 

I don't know if some of you are talking to me or not. Anyway, I will restate my post, No. 16. "I am not asking folks to honor my norm. I am asking them to honor The RO Committee's interpretations." That is why I gave this thread the title I did.

 

Phantom, maybe, I've not stated things well. The problem is not "creativity" per se. It is the various calls that are made by different ROs at one match. We need that to be the same for all. I doubt that you would want to beat someone because they got a P for something you did and did not get a P for. Or, vice versa. :unsure:

 

The ROC gives us clarifications every year at the Convention. These are the same IMOs we hear from PWB all year. IIUC, these are not always distributed.

 

So folks, can you see a solution to this problem of differing calls for the same action? More conventions? For example, using the controversy that led me to start this thread, "Unless otherwise stated, target engagement starts on either end target."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS My match got rained out today. :(

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PWB and I have been good friends for the past 11 years or so

As far as I am concerned, He is the ultimate word on the SASS Rule Book.Fair,Impartial and a wealth of SASS knowledge.

I am proud to call him a friend and i have great respect for him

 

<snip>

 

 

Ditto.. What Sixgun Shorty said!!

Rance <_<

Thinkin' I didn't know sweeps were that confusin' :wacko:

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Allie, I'm sorry your match got rained out today.

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To allow for some interpretation in a scenario is good. To allow "Shooter's Choice" type of situations is fun. Every shooter needs the chance to be creative and to figure a way to shoot that favors their category or the fact that they are left handed or right.

 

I also think there are times to be very specific, but that's on a stage to stage basis. If, for instance you say to sweep the targets twice and don't say "no double taps" then that person can double tap the end and come back or repeat the first sweep.....in both cases it is up to the shooter as to what's more comfortable.

 

As far as PWB....I have all the respect for him and take his word as gospel, but if for some reason I want clarity I may give an example or ask the question....do I know of a specific question he has been vague or wrong on.....NO....but I also know he is big enough to see other points of view and adjust.

 

Let's keep the game fun. Minimize the wording as the rule for scenarios. If we are so detailed and descriptive about everything in the stage, we will be reading forever and eventially it will become boring. 10-10-4...Pistol, Rifle Shotgun. 1-3-1, 2-1-2, Indiana Sweep, Ohio Sweep, double tap sweep....eventually it will become YAWN.

 

Just my two scents

 

KK

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To allow for some interpretation in a scenario is good. To allow "Shooter's Choice" type of situations is fun. Every shooter needs the chance to be creative and to figure a way to shoot that favors their category or the fact that they are left handed or right.

 

I also think there are times to be very specific, but that's on a stage to stage basis. If, for instance you say to sweep the targets twice and don't say "no double taps" then that person can double tap the end and come back or repeat the first sweep.....in both cases it is up to the shooter as to what's more comfortable.

 

As far as PWB....I have all the respect for him and take his word as gospel, but if for some reason I want clarity I may give an example or ask the question....do I know of a specific question he has been vague or wrong on.....NO....but I also know he is big enough to see other points of view and adjust.

 

Let's keep the game fun. Minimize the wording as the rule for scenarios. If we are so detailed and descriptive about everything in the stage, we will be reading forever and eventially it will become boring. 10-10-4...Pistol, Rifle Shotgun. 1-3-1, 2-1-2, Indiana Sweep, Ohio Sweep, double tap sweep....eventually it will become YAWN.

 

Just my two scents

 

KK

 

Yes...please :D

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Oh heaven help me...

 

Here's a very likely scenario (and I've seen it happen). New shooter shoota a stage, misses a bunch, and deserves an UNQUESTIONED P. TO says, I'm gonna let shooter just take the misses. Am I a HA for thinking that is not right. Beeellleeive me I had ooodles of misses and many Ps when I started. It never ruined my enthusiasm for shooting.

 

When did this disregard for rules start? Is it a good thing?

 

It is fine for a top shooter to say, let the poor smuck go. :rolleyes: We're just having fun here. :rolleyes: What about the poor smuck who would have finished second to last had the correct call been made.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Yup, I've seen it done too. Didn't like it.

 

Allie Mo, With all this rule talk I hope you like the looks of the nameplate RO Commitee Chair on your Office Door ;)

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Yup, I've seen it done too. Didn't like it.

 

Allie Mo, With all this rule talk I hope you like the looks of the nameplate RO Commitee Chair on your Office Door ;)

:lol:

 

That ain't gonna happen. Not that I wouldn't be honored.

 

I rather like the Chairman and don't want anything to happen to him. I met him my first year shooting (1999) and have had many laughs with him (well some were kind of at him; but they were to his face).

 

:wub:

 

Allie Mo

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Hello,

 

I don't know if some of you are talking to me or not. Anyway, I will restate my post, No. 16. "I am not asking folks to honor my norm. I am asking them to honor The RO Committee's interpretations." That is why I gave this thread the title I did.

 

Phantom, maybe, I've not stated things well. The problem is not "creativity" per se. It is the various calls that are made by different ROs at one match. We need that to be the same for all. I doubt that you would want to beat someone because they got a P for something you did and did not get a P for. Or, vice versa. :unsure:

 

The ROC gives us clarifications every year at the Convention. These are the same IMOs we hear from PWB all year. IIUC, these are not always distributed.

 

So folks, can you see a solution to this problem of differing calls for the same action? More conventions? For example, using the controversy that led me to start this thread, "Unless otherwise stated, target engagement starts on either end target."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS My match got rained out today. :(

 

Hi Ms Allie Mo!

 

A couple of days ago I sent off a PM to PWB about a Stage Convention just as you suggested and am advised it is being looked at. This in regards to my "sweep" question - you know the one! As I indicated in that thread I was waiting for some word from PWB and he responded with a qualified IMO - that's good enough for me.

 

Oh - and our monthly got washed out today too, mostly the lightning concerned us - luckily there's another match next week-end.

Colt

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Howdy Mr. McCloud,

 

Great! (about the convention, not your match) ;)

 

I started a thread on the TG wire about it too. It's really a simple, easy to remember one. Having it in the book would save a lot of grief, as we just can't get everyone to agree.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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