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Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217

PaleWolf Brunelle

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TG forum....elitist higher up types.

 

Lol, just kiddin. Thanks for all y'all do to keep this sport movin'

 

Now make FCG official!......

 

GG

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As a general rule, I ain't too fond of rules. I got three days off from work awhile back for breaking a rule. Me and rules just ain't never got along too good.

 

Also, when it comes to reading rules and interpreting rules, I ain't too smart at it. Even as simple as the SASS rule book is, it gives me fits. And the RO 1 and RO 2 books are even worse. So I rely on the folks that are good at it, like Allie Mo and PWB. I've never met either one of them, but I'd sure be honored to share a posse with them. They probably couldn't put up with me for very long though. I'm kinda like prunes, a little bit goes a long way. :lol:

 

I attended a state championship match in which one posse leader allowed his/her posse to shoot a stage differently than the rest of us. Whether it was deliberate or just a misunderstanding, I don't know. It didn't make any difference in where I finished overall, (nothing ever does :) ) and I don't know if it made a difference in the top standings or not. But I do know there was some grumbling, and IMO it was a well deserved grumbling. So rules are important and should be strictly applied to each shooter.

 

Anyway, I just hate to see somebody get slammed for doing a good job. I wouldn't take PWB's job at twice the pay.

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I'm fully confident in PWB, even when it's "his humble opinion".

 

Met him only once and he's a smart man. When I needed clarifications or help, I sent him an email or posted on the wire, and always he was of great help and answered to my queries.

 

For me he's THE authority to explain, help and clarify the rules and help ti have an iodea about what had been well or poorly juged on the range. A mistake from the To is always possible but with PWB explanation, the mistake is not to be redone.

 

It's mu humble frenchie opinion about this great man and I thank him for the help he already gave to us on the other side of the pound!

 

CRR

 

PS, Allie Mo, I' still :wub: you!!

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I agree the Pale Wolf is the go to guy for the rules. But, his opinion somewhere in a 4 page thread is not an official rule clarification. To be official it needs to be posted for all the TGs and MDs to see.

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While ya'll are diving into making sure that all the sweeps are clearly defined...and all...please make sure that you outlaw any 5 on 3...or 10 on 4 target engagements...might confuse spotters as they don't know what the shooter is going to do.

 

:wacko:

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While ya'll are diving into making sure that all the sweeps are clearly defined...and all... :wacko:

 

clearly defined can also include

 

sweep bla-bla order, starting anywhere ya dang well feel like :mellow::unsure::mellow:

:ph34r: geeeeeeeeeese :ph34r:

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While ya'll are diving into making sure that all the sweeps are clearly defined...and all...please make sure that you outlaw any 5 on 3...or 10 on 4 target engagements...might confuse spotters as they don't know what the shooter is going to do.

 

:wacko:

Phantom,

 

You are taking this over the edge. Five on three has always been flexible unless there is something else stated.

 

I was trying to say that a simple sweep has historically started on an end, either end. You can see by the posts on Colt's sweep thread that many folks have this same expectation. Many others disagree.

 

As you are not replying to my question to you, I will restate it. (Of course, it is your choice whether to reply.)

 

"Phantom, maybe, I've not stated things well. The problem is not "creativity" per se. It is the various calls that are made by different ROs at one match. We need that to be the same for all. I doubt that you would want to beat someone because they got a P for something you did and did not get a P for. Or, vice versa."

 

That said, with controversy over where to start a sweep, how do we ensure fair calls for all? What if PWB agreed with your view and had said "IMO a sweep can start on any target." To you, would that carry the weight of a rule? How would we get everyone to allow that if folks just consider it an opinion and are free to do what their individual opinions tell them to do?

 

Wouldn't you like all MDs, PMs, TOs, shooters...to be on the same page about what is allowed. I know it will never happen in reality; but, I think that is what we should strive for to make our game fair.

 

I hope I've finally made clear what my thoughts are (or at least have evolved to :rolleyes: ). :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Miss Allie,

Sweeps CAN start on other targets than the ends and I for one, don't need Pale Wolf to tell me that! If a stage is poorly written and is NOT clear how one should engage the targets, smart shooters ask. When it is a small matter, most probably feel confident going by their experience in making a call and it should not surprise ANYONE that at a given match, with poorly written stages there is a possibility that one might shoot it one way and on another posse a shooter shooting "that" way gets a P. No this should not happen but it does. One should not read anything into a description either way.

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I don't know Allie I am beginning to think that in the relatively short time that I have been shooting...the monthlies with the Outlaws & GCWB , CAS 101 with " The Other Guy and El Suave, the 2 annuals Dry Gulch at Arroyo Cantua, High Sierra Shootout and the Calif. State Wild Bunch Championships that I have been blessed

 

because before every stage I have ever shot the stage writer has done there best to make it clear of there intent...

 

my posse leaders have gone over each & every stage answering questions until it was clear on how one should shoot the stage using this sweep or that sweep before the first shot goes down range on a stage....and if by chance that one did understand there was someone to help

 

there have also been stages that have been wrote intentionally to shoot it as Dutch says "think outside the box" and that has been been made clear too.

 

I have been taught that hand books have all the rules in them and it is not a bad idea to read them, the posse leader and/or TO was boss...if 2 out of three spotters call it a miss then you were called for a miss.

 

There has been a match or 2 that have not been 100% by SASS rules...just a little change maybe but this was made clear by the match director at the safety before the match as to what we were doing and why.

 

and no matter what there are 2 rules that are never ever forgotten Rule #1 Safety comes before anything and Rule #2 Have Fun.

 

So tell me is this not how all CAS & WB matches and clubs work or am I just Blessed

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Hi Woodie,

 

Well, of course you are blessed to have had such great experiences. We are all blessed to have fun at matches. :D

 

However, you must note that all of those matches have an overlap of club officers and shooters. The Presidents at Cowboy Town, discuss things. Grizz and Nyack from the matches at RR Flat have been involved at CT, Grizz as an officer, Nyack as a Match Director. You tend to get uniformity in a small area.

 

The farther away you get from home base, you will encounter a greater of variety of situations and expectations. For example, some state matches will have Posse Marshals (PMs) from all over the state. You may find very different interpretations from a PM from Eureka than you do from one from San Diego. :blink: The same is true of some Regional matches. Sometimes these varied interpretations come from deep seated attitudes about what is right in a certain situation. Others may come from not being able to remember every single rule or local rule. Either way, they can result in different calls on different posses. One shooter may not know that he/she got a P or MSV for something that a shooter on a different posse did not get a P or MSV for. Therefore, they are not even aware that they can protest the call even then, they are reluctant to pay $50.00 to do so. In cases with a protest, the PM making the incorrect call might have learned something.

 

Also, there are some range safety rules that vary. Here's one. SASS rules allow you to run with a live round in your SG's open action. That is a SDQ at the SW Regional and U.S. Open (for two that I know of). Say a PM from another area missed that (it can happen) and he/she allowed shooters to move with live shells in an open SG. Another PM gives a SDQ. Not too fair is it. I did see this happen on the same posse with different TOs. I and others moved with a shell in our SGs without issue. Another shooter, had the TO tell him to get the round out, causing an increase in stage time. He complied but knew it was bad instructions. Luckily, it was resolved (same posse) and the shooter got a reshoot.

 

The same thing can happen with P issues. If you read the thread about sweeps, many folks think sweeps "that say from either direction" must start on an end. Many others disagreed. So, the result can be people at the same match being penalized for an action where others did not get a P.

 

I could give you many more examples; but, I'm getting restless and the dryer is beeping. ;) I hope this has helped. :)

 

Regards,

 

Allie "who feels blessed sometimes too" Mo

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Heck, I am blessed with the folks I have shot with and met. Still...I try to give 'thanks' in ALL circumstances...

 

Like was posted earlier by a pard. Let's keep the FUN in SASS :D

 

GG (Mr. Off Topic) ~ :FlagAm:

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I say we institute the "600 Pound Gorilla Sweep". How do you shoot it? Anyway you want to. :lol:

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I say we institute the "600 Pound Gorilla Sweep". How do you shoot it? Anyway you want to. :lol:

 

Is there a book on 'sweep' names? There are so many names for 'em like 'Indiana sweep', 'Nevada sweep', etc...

 

:D

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Gunner, I saw a list posted one time either here or in the Saloon. Trouble is, there are so many, and a "Whatever Sweep" in Oklahoma, may be something else entirely in other areas.

 

We probably would benefit from a standardized list, but I haven't shot enough of the different ones to be qualified to write the list.

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Gunner, I saw a list posted one time either here or in the Saloon. Trouble is, there are so many, and a "Whatever Sweep" in Oklahoma, may be something else entirely in other areas.

 

We probably would benefit from a standardized list, but I haven't shot enough of the different ones to be qualified to write the list.

 

A 'whatever sweep'???... :lol: oh my!

 

Thanks Pulp..

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Phantom,

 

As you are not replying to my question to you, I will restate it. (Of course, it is your choice whether to reply.)

 

"Phantom, maybe, I've not stated things well. The problem is not "creativity" per se. It is the various calls that are made by different ROs at one match. We need that to be the same for all. I doubt that you would want to beat someone because they got a P for something you did and did not get a P for. Or, vice versa."

 

 

Consistancy is critical...of course.

 

Answering the second question would be silly...I'm going to assume that it was retorical.

 

I abide by only what is written down, and I'm of the philosophy that unless a shooting sequence defines a start point, that I can start where ever I want to.

 

If we are to now have sweep conventions, then I will probably experience a head explosion!

 

Phantom...

 

:FlagAm:

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As the thread progresses I learn more...cool...

 

GG

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The one thing that PWB does that is great....is remind us that going back to the rule book is a good start. So....... ;)

 

Keep havung FUN :lol:

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Hello Folks,

 

In the past, when PWB gave a rule interpretation, even saying IMO, we would honor that as a rule interpretation. :)

 

From recent posts it seems some of you are no longer giving him that respect. Is my take correct? :unsure: Or, do you honor his opinions if you like them? :rolleyes:

 

Either way, I am finding recent trends appalling. All the "special" people with their "special" interpretations of long standing norms is getting out of hand. :ph34r:

 

Maybe, we should just set up targets and say "shooters' choice" of everything. Just engage each target at least once with any gun in any order from any window... You could be as creative as you like. No more arguments. No more need for interpretations. :rolleyes:

 

r.

 

Regards,

 

I wish that I had read the original post(s)so i could understand what you are talking about......but, if you are interpreting a "rule" then yes the expert has spoken......on the other hand if it is "anyone's" opinion and wasn't written and approved as a rule.....well, it is just an opinion and everyone has theirs......if you want shooters to only start on a certain target, you better make that fact very clear when you write the senario.

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Yes there is no doubt that I am blessed with starting this game in what I will call ( for a lack of a better term ) a "SASS HUB" with so many clubs and so much great knowledge.....but then again all of us who get to play this game are blessed were ever we are for just getting the opportunity to play.

 

Now when I decided that I wanted to come and play with all you cowboys & Girls before I joined I looked over the hand books real quick to see if there were any rules in them that I just could not live with knowing full well it was your game with your rules and if I wanted to play I would have to play by these rules. I also knew that once I started this thing call SASS it would be my responsibility to study theses hand books. The rules are not that difficult to understand....there is a fine point here and there that I have trouble with now & then but then again I have good people around me to ask questions of...I am blessed.

 

One of the first things I was told about this game and have been told many times sences I started is we " give the benefit to the shooter"....to me that means we give the benefit of any doubt to the shooter with in the rules as stated within the hand books.

 

So if when I have my train wrecks during a match and I start racking up Misses & P's or god forbid...a safety...it is not fair to me or the other shooters to not give me the score that I have earned....these are my misses & P's I earned them so I want them....this is not giving the benefit to the shooter...this breaking the rules...

 

This brings me to the point of what I think got this post started it was the post about the sweep.

 

From the limited amount of information that started the post about the sweep I did not see were there would be a wrong or right OPINION ...My reasoning for feeling this way is this.

 

I do not shoot at the club or match in question so I do not know what the norm or protocol is for that club. In my mine it would just seem wrong of me to assume what there norm or protocol is...norm or protocol can very from place to place and still be within the rules of SASS.

 

The writer of the sweep post did not say if he was a regular at this club or a guest..or if he knew that this was or was not the normal stage writing for this club with members understanding the intent of the writer. Or if anyone had any question before the stage was shot.He did not say what the posse leader's take on his call was.

 

I got from his post that some on the posse thought it was a clean some did not so that tells me not everyone understood the stage... so me making the call here in CA on a match in PA that I did not go to.... I had to gave the benefit to the shooter and called it clean...just my opinion using the information I had.

 

There is no rule in the hand book as to what is and what is not a sweep. ( And IMHO there is no need for one ) It is the stage writers job and prerogative to "Name That Sweep" it is my job as a shooter to make sure I understand the stage before I tell the TO I am ready....

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When PWB responds to a rules question, I read no further.

 

Whether I like it or not, the rule has been interpreted and the question answered.

 

Ditto! When there is a question about the rules I often scroll down for OWB response first.

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Having not been on the wire for a coupla days and just now catching this;

 

And having been one of those who, on the potential offending thread, did directly question the “opinion” of PWB;

 

And assuming that I am one of those that has Ms. Mo so appalled (or am I just one of those people who always thinks that I am the one being talked about when specific names are not mentioned);

 

I will say that I have great respect for PWB and all his rulings on specific issues. I have no problem being wrong. If PWB comes up with a ruling or official statement that I disagree with, that’s just too bad for me.

If he tells me I am wrong, fine with me. I am wrong.

But if he says, I may possibly be potentially wrong based on personal opinion, than I assume there is room for further discussion.

I took “IMO” to be personal interpretation and believed PWB was speaking as a shooter based on his comments, not as the rules committee spokesman.

If I am wrong, so be it. Won’t be the first or last time.

And I do apologize for restarting a thread that was more likely than not over and done with.

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