Watching Gettysburg

[Indian Jack.]

wanted some opinions here...I am watching Gettysburg on the History Channel....It has stirred up a long burning question about the ramrods on the rifles/muskets. Seems that every show I watch, the soldier is always seen replacing his ramrod in the ramrod slot AFTER loading and in the heat of battle...I am wonder if there was a regulation back then and maybe the solder was always trained to return the ramrod to the ramrod slot after loading and before shooting the weapon. I have seen some opinions that this was to keep the soldier from losing his ramrod in the event that he stuck it in the ground or mud or to keep the ramrod from being fired at the enemy as had been reported happening. It seems that the "gamer" in the battle would have simply held the ramrod alongside the stock when firing.

 

I attached the below comments from another website.....What do you all think?

 

The soldier places the ramrod back in its place after each shot, couldn't he shave off valuable seconds if he just stuck it into the ground instead of fiddling around getting it back.

 

 

Forcing them to replace the ramrod after every shot was drilled over and over and over with the soldiers so that it became second nature. This accomplished two things. First, it insured that the ramrod was not left in the barrel in the heat of battle, which would cause the soldier to accidentally fire his ramrod at the enemy. Second, it insured that the soldier wouldn't leave his ramrod on the ground if he had to charge or make a hasty retreat. Without the ramrod you can't load the weapon, so it's important to keep it with the musket.

 

Despite the training and the procedure, ramrods were still occasionally fired at the enemy.

 

Muskets were often also fired by ranks, where you've got two or three rows of soldiers. While one rank is firing the others are reloading, so you end up with a wall of men shooting at a much faster rate than a single rank of musketeers would be capable of. With that many men crowded into a small area it wasn't really practical to leave your ramrod in the ground since another soldier could easily knock it over, and if you are scrambling on the ground trying to retrieve your ramrod you are messing up the timing of your rank.

[Tom Bullweed]

I have heard numerous stories from re-enactors about other re-enactors who fired their musket with the ramrod in the barrel creating a 32" long projectile and a useless weapon. I have to believe that this was also likely in 1863. Teaching a soldier to return the rod to the slot under the barrel would prmote muscle memory that could keep the weapon functional.

The movie Glory shows a great deal of detail about this process.

[Nota John, SASS #51089L]

wanted some opinions here...I am watching Gettysburg on the History Channel....It has stirred up a long burning question about the ramrods on the rifles/muskets. Seems that every show I watch, the soldier is always seen replacing his ramrod in the ramrod slot AFTER loading and in the heat of battle...I am wonder if there was a regulation back then and maybe the solder was always trained to return the ramrod to the ramrod slot after loading and before shooting the weapon. I have seen some opinions that this was to keep the soldier from losing his ramrod in the event that he stuck it in the ground or mud or to keep the ramrod from being fired at the enemy as had been reported happening. It seems that the "gamer" in the battle would have simply held the ramrod alongside the stock when firing.

 

I attached the below comments from another website.....What do you all think?

 

The soldier places the ramrod back in its place after each shot, couldn't he shave off valuable seconds if he just stuck it into the ground instead of fiddling around getting it back.

 

 

Forcing them to replace the ramrod after every shot was drilled over and over and over with the soldiers so that it became second nature. This accomplished two things. First, it insured that the ramrod was not left in the barrel in the heat of battle, which would cause the soldier to accidentally fire his ramrod at the enemy. Second, it insured that the soldier wouldn't leave his ramrod on the ground if he had to charge or make a hasty retreat. Without the ramrod you can't load the weapon, so it's important to keep it with the musket.

 

Despite the training and the procedure, ramrods were still occasionally fired at the enemy.

 

Muskets were often also fired by ranks, where you've got two or three rows of soldiers. While one rank is firing the others are reloading, so you end up with a wall of men shooting at a much faster rate than a single rank of musketeers would be capable of. With that many men crowded into a small area it wasn't really practical to leave your ramrod in the ground since another soldier could easily knock it over, and if you are scrambling on the ground trying to retrieve your ramrod you are messing up the timing of your rank.

 

 

Yes, there was a drill that they were trained with that required the ramrod to be returned to the channel after loading ( have seen a printed copy of this drill somewhere ). Yours. Nota John

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

In addition to a ramrod being accidentally left in the barrel, in the heat of battle if a soldier dropped it while running or left it behind he would have a useless gun.

[Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L]

Manual of Arms were extremely detailed. If you care to wade thru it below, you can find the return rammer section. Basic concept was under pressure you tend to do what you've drilled.

 

Manual at Arms

[Indian Jack.]

guess they had no gamers back then....I would want to shoot as fast as I could

[Subdeacon Joe]

guess they had no gamers back then....I would want to shoot as fast as I could

 

But if you have to suddenly move and you haven't racked your ram rod, you have a useless firearm that won't shoot at all. You would have to scrounge another ram rod. There was good reason for drilling into the soldier that the ram rod was replaced each time.

 

 

Also, if you just jab it into the ground you likely have to look for it each time you go to grab it - that takes time, and takes you attention off of the action. By having it in the same place every time you can just go on automatic and not need to look and reach for the rod. So, it might actually be faster to follow the drill.

[Irish Rambler]

Subdeacon as the bulk of it right. I command a company of Federal troops in CW reenacting and a newbie always brings up the question. If you always follow the drill you always know where the ramrod is. If the company has to move, you do not have troops fumbling around and tripping over each other finding their ramrods. Also while the front rank might be able get away with sticking their ramrods in the dirt, the rear rank does not have room to do so. Newbies also always bring up speed. As a company commander I am more interested in delivering massed fire down range than how fast I can do it. Out of a 50 rifle company if a couple of guys are not loaded when I need to fire I will not miss them. It is safer for them to finish their loading drill and catch up the next time around.

 

Rambling Irishman

[Utah Bob #35998]

Units' training varied widely. Many state militia units had nice uniforms but were commanded by bankers and plantation owners with no military experience. A large number of men had never fired a musket until they were in battle. So it was not unusual to find ramrods stuck in trees or bodies after a fight. As the war ground on, the troops became more experienced and training improved.

As mentioned the proper procedure was to return the rammer to it's channel. Easy to do in training with no adrenalin causing the hands to shake.

Rifles were also found on the field with numerous charges in them filling the barrel. A young soldier would ram round after round down the bore, shoulder it and fire without putting a cap on the nipple. In the excitement they wouldn't even notice the gun hadn't gone off.

[Dutch Al #22045]

RIGHT ON U.B. That wasn't confined to the Civil War either. Bolt action rifles in WW I had magazine follower stops so the soldiers couldn't close the bolt on an empty chamber.

[Subdeacon Joe]

Subdeacon as the bulk of it right. I command a company of Federal troops in CW reenacting and a newbie always brings up the question. If you always follow the drill you always know where the ramrod is. If the company has to move, you do not have troops fumbling around and tripping over each other finding their ramrods. Also while the front rank might be able get away with sticking their ramrods in the dirt, the rear rank does not have room to do so. Newbies also always bring up speed. As a company commander I am more interested in delivering massed fire down range than how fast I can do it. Out of a 50 rifle company if a couple of guys are not loaded when I need to fire I will not miss them. It is safer for them to finish their loading drill and catch up the next time around.

 

Rambling Irishman

 

 

If you have the powder to spare it would be interesting to have your company fire ten rounds following the drill, returning the ramrod to the channel each time, and time them. Then another ten rounds, having them either holding the ramrods or sticking them into the ground. Better yet if you could do that at a range where you could load ball.

 

 

RIGHT ON U.B. That wasn't confined to the Civil War either. Bolt action rifles in WW I had magazine follower stops so the soldiers couldn't close the bolt on an empty chamber.

 

Some also had magazine cut-offs so the men would have to feed one round at a time rather than firing out of the magazine. Can't have them wasting ammunition, don't you know.

[Buckshot Frank]

Hypothetically, the "gamer" civil war soldier would hold the rod in their off hand while shooting so that they could load faster. Of course they would also be using half the powder charge as normal to lessen recoil, so it wouldn't matter how many miniballs that they got off because they wouldn't reach the enemy anyways .

[Shakey Merlot]

Howdy,

 

I read somewhere (possibly one of Bruce Catton's books) about a tree at Shiloh, I think. After the battle there were literally hundreds of ramrods deep in the tree from both sides. Most of the soldiers who fought there were rank amateurs at that point. It makes sense to drill the soldier to return the ramrod for 2 reasons. First it would, hopefully, remind the soldier who is new and terrified to hold onto his ramrod. Second, if a soldier returns his rod before he shoots, there is less possibility that, in the heat of battle, he will load multiple rounds. There are several stories of rifles found on the field with the barrels stuffed to the top with rounds. Drill would help the soldier rememeber to cap the piece after loading, hence the extra step to return the ramrod, giving a man time, maybe to think. All that army theory aside, you fight like you train. Well-drilled veterans with several battles behind them could probably load and fire almost as fast returning the rod as ramming it in the ground or holding it.

 

 

Just my .02

 

Shakey

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

I have found that I can load my musket with three or four rounds - one on top of the other - much more quickly by returning the rod to the rod channel.

Capping the musket is optional.

[Stump Water]

I am watching Gettysburg on the History Channel...

 

Did we lose again?

 

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

Did we lose again?

 

To tell you the truth, I wasn't overly impressed with The History Channel's Gettysburg last night. I went to bed about 2/3rd the way through; just before Pickett's Charge.

[Four-Eyed Buck,SASS #14795]

They didn't deal with the usual suspects

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

They didn't deal with the usual suspects

True. Mostly antidotal. Seemed to me they were trying to get the viewer into the emotional essence of the battle.

[Subdeacon Joe]

True. Mostly antidotal. Seemed to me they were trying to get the viewer into the emotional essence of the battle.

 

Yeah! That is what was bothering me about it. A lot of human interest background and guessing at motives. It was a kind of nice change from the usual Civil War docu-dramas, but the could have gotten it all across in an hour rather than two.

[Indian Jack.]

Did we lose again?

 

 

EVERYBODY lost in that war.

[Indian Jack.]

Hypothetically, the "gamer" civil war soldier would hold the rod in their off hand while shooting so that they could load faster. Of course they would also be using half the powder charge as normal to lessen recoil, so it wouldn't matter how many miniballs that they got off because they wouldn't reach the enemy anyways .

 

 

the "gamer" soldier would also not fire until he heard a "BeeP" and if he was not ready.....they would ask for another "BeeP"....then later he would complain about something...

[stepnmud#33546]

Them fellers new Henry rifles would start looking to maybe have an edge.

 

Watched bits and pieces of the 'Gettysburg' show and saw some of the men suffering from extreme hearing damage. Standing close to cannons firing round after round, would not the men find something to use for hearing protection? Cotton balls or other?

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I am watching it now ~ it's a valid representation IMHO. Good job History Channel. Of course, some doofus will find something out of place or slightly historically inaccurate and cry 'FOUL"

 

GG ~

[Subdeacon Joe]

Them fellers new Henry rifles would start looking to maybe have an edge.

 

Watched bits and pieces of the 'Gettysburg' show and saw some of the men suffering from extreme hearing damage. Standing close to cannons firing round after round, would not the men find something to use for hearing protection? Cotton balls or other?

 

Some would sometimes use some cotton wool or such, but it doesn't seem to have been common, even for the cannoneers in fortifications or aboard ship. But also remember, we didn't really know a whole lot about how the human body works back then.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Them fellers new Henry rifles would start looking to maybe have an edge.

 

Watched bits and pieces of the 'Gettysburg' show and saw some of the men suffering from extreme hearing damage. Standing close to cannons firing round after round, would not the men find something to use for hearing protection? Cotton balls or other?

 

Even with modern ear protection, I never met an artilleryman who had good hearing.

[Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178]

Conventional wisdom holds that Lee's invasion was doomed from the start. Yet, Lee had at least three chances of winning at Gettysburg, all of them on the second day.

 

First, if the Confederates had either seized Little Round Top before the Federals got men up there - or one more company ready to make one last countercharge on Chamberlain's position - the whole Federal line would have been rendered untenable.

 

Second, a late afternoon breakthrough in the center was not supported. Hancock was able to close the breach by sacrificing the only company at hand. Those were brave men... they knew what General Hancock was ordering, and the marched in anyway.

 

Third, an evening breakthrough on Howard's position on Cemetery Hill was not supported. In the growing darkness, the Confederate commander could not distinguish the uniforms of an advancing force until they had fired the second volley, and the Confederates were driven back down the hill in disarray.

 

Even the third day may have seen a Confederate victory if Lee had followed Longstreet's advise to manuver around the right across Meade's lines of supply, rather than charging the center.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

I have a friend that fired his ram rod downrange after loading his .54 caliber rifle with a patched round ball over 120 grains of FFg. The recoil made his eyeballs click.........

[Fairshake]

My wife has a Uncle and Aunt who own the Horse Solider in Gettysburg. Her father was born there and she played on the battlefield as a young child. I have been there on several occasions as many others have devoted an entire lifetime to it's study. One thing that has always bothered me and it went unanswered again is the reason that Longstreet did not follow the orders of Lee that had him advancing his troops early that day. He waited until almost 1630 hr to deploy his troops. This in itself changed the battle of a victory for Lee. They also never said the reason for Lee's army of Virgina for being on the out skirts of Gettysburg. Lee had no information that showed Grants Army to be there. Lee was headed north to defeat and take a city such as Washington DC. He had made no plans to fight Grant at Gettysburg. The small patrol that was sent into town were on a supply mission for shoes as many of the soldiers were barefoot. They were under orders to pay for and not loot. In fact the South did not steal nor harm the citizens of Gettysburg in any way. One lady was killed by accident when two snipers were sighting in their rifles at a door knob at a home up the street from their location in the attic of a home. There are many ifs to this battle that will never be answered. I had kin that fought on both sides as many did. I did find out that Lincoln's wife Mary had 3 brothers who all wore gray. The reason for the gray was a simple one, it required no dyeing work to be done on it. Gettysburg is a bucket list place to go to. It's best to go in the fall and not during the 1st,2nd or 3rd of July as the heat and people make it hard to move about.

[Subdeacon Joe]

Many of Lee's orders were kind of vague. Couched with phrases such as "Move your men up to (given point) if (or when) practicable." What exactly does that mean? That leaves a lot of leeway for the individual commander at whatever level.

 

And this, from Longstreet to Alexander:

 

Longstreet to Alexander

 

What exactly does it mean?

 

 

 

 

 

My wife has a Uncle and Aunt who own the Horse Solider in Gettysburg. Her father was born there and she played on the battlefield as a young child. I have been there on several occasions as many others have devoted an entire lifetime to it's study. One thing that has always bothered me and it went unanswered again is the reason that Longstreet did not follow the orders of Lee that had him advancing his troops early that day. He waited until almost 1630 hr to deploy his troops. This in itself changed the battle of a victory for Lee. They also never said the reason for Lee's army of Virgina for being on the out skirts of Gettysburg. Lee had no information that showed Grants Army to be there. Lee was headed north to defeat and take a city such as Washington DC. He had made no plans to fight Grant at Gettysburg. The small patrol that was sent into town were on a supply mission for shoes as many of the soldiers were barefoot. They were under orders to pay for and not loot. In fact the South did not steal nor harm the citizens of Gettysburg in any way. One lady was killed by accident when two snipers were sighting in their rifles at a door knob at a home up the street from their location in the attic of a home. There are many ifs to this battle that will never be answered. I had kin that fought on both sides as many did. I did find out that Lincoln's wife Mary had 3 brothers who all wore gray. The reason for the gray was a simple one, it required no dyeing work to be done on it. Gettysburg is a bucket list place to go to. It's best to go in the fall and not during the 1st,2nd or 3rd of July as the heat and people make it hard to move about.

[Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178]

As stated, Gettysburg was an "accidental" battlefield. Lee had intended to advance upon and capture Harrisburg, IIRC. Meade wished to draw Lee into a confrontation against a prepared position 20-30 miles to the south/southeast. Once the initial engagement was joined at Gettysburg, both sides had to rapidly move their forces into the area and try to secure favorable ground.

 

Lee had always issued orders which seemed more like suggestions. In the past, he could depend upon Jackson, one of the war's most agressive commanders, to make the most of whatever situation presented itself. Having lost Jackson at Chancellorsville a few months earlier. At Gettysburg, Lee's generals were less inclined to take the initiative (most notably Jubal Early against the Federal right). Frequently, an advance which Lee had "ordered" would be delayed several hours, with less than expected results.

 

Uncharacteristically, Longstreet completely disagreed with Lee's tactics at Gettysburg. Longstreet wanted to either lure the Federals into an assault on a defensive position, or manuver them out of their current position, which he recognized (better than Lee did) as deceptively strong. This may account for Longstreet's uncharacteristic lethargy in carrying out Lee's ordes at Gettysburg.

 

The greatest hero of the battle of Gettysburg was General Winfield Scott Hancock. Although George Meade was the commander of the Army of the Potomac, Hancock personally directed virtually the entire battle.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Of course the procedure of loading rounds into the weapons of the day was one of the problems that led to the term "well regulated militia" being in the 2nd Amendment.

[Big50]

EVERYBODY lost in that war.

 

+1

[Grouchy Greg, SASS#71981]

I have several Minie` bullets that I found with my metal detector that have quite obviously been fired with the ramrod still in the barrel.