Can A GunFighter really compete?

[mj spencer]

Can a gunfighter compete? Yes. Of course. If the gunfighter is a superior shooter and performs better than the other shooters at the match, yes a gunfighter can compete.

 

The difference is that the gunfighter will probably have to have a wider margin of superiority in terms of skill over his competitors than he might if shooting two-handed. Shooting gunfighter is more fun, and perhaps in order to keep the universe in balance, requires much more skill to compete on the same level as a shooter using two hands on one gun. Getting a steady sight picture not only with only one hand on the gun, not only using both your strong and weak hand, but also using both hands to shoot unsupported without being able to anchor the off-hand requires much more practice, patience, and skill. Thus a gunfighter would have to be comparatively more skilled to compete with a two-handed shooter.

 

Also, the stage writer will have a much larger influence on the gunfighter's ability to compete than he would between two-handed shooters. A stage with lots of running or small targets won't necessarily change the margin between two-handed shooters of equal skill, but would change the margin between those who can run well or shoot accurately. A match with many stages where the pistols are not back to back will increase the margin between a gunfighter and a two-handed shooter of similar skill levels.

 

(edited for clarification)

HEY BUD!!!!

completely off topic, but knowing you in person and getting to hang with u at eot was sure alot different than the way u sound on the wire!!!!

 

so it got me wondering, WHO IN THE WORLD DO U HAVE WRITE THESE POSTS FOR YOU ON THE WIRE, THEY SURE MAKE U SOUND SMART?!!!!! HAHAHAHA

[Jack Houston # 35508]

Shoot OUTLAW Style !!!!!!!! Then it don't matter..... Tell them that you refuse to take the penalty because your an Outlaw.... Now.... they are gonna write down your score with the penalty-- but who cares ---YOU had more fun than they did...... more folks are gonna stop to watch ya shoot and video tape Ya.... Go to Tn. Tombstones website he's got some good ideas and videos.... Sorry did not mean to Hijack the Gunfighters post BUT an OUTLAW shoots gunfighter style without using the sights... It's just fun..

If T-Bone would shoot Gunfighter without the "Outlaw" thing, My money would be on him as the only Gunfighter I know who could win WR or EOT!!!

[Crotchety Old Grouch, SASS #51188]

Check out the GF's name on the top of the 2009 Oregon State Championship and note the spread between first and second place.

 

 

http://www.oowss.com/Match_Results_2009/St...%2008-16-09.pdf

 

 

note; results for mir mortals may very

[crooked jake,4371]

btt

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

I'll brag a bit now. I believe one would have to look long and hard to find a match that is as all around friendly for the various shooting styles than the ones at SHOOTOUT/GUNFIGHT AT GIVHANS FERRY THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS. Though I have given up on the idea of ever being able to shoot Gunfighter, period, I do think one day the right young man will bring it all together on the national level and send a clatter of new shooters trying it. I think the physical skills are already in place for several shooters but as RRR stated, playing the mental game against the stage writing on just one stage can make the difference. Since the Gunfighter is a two handed shooter why shouldnt he shoot Traditional on splits????? How often would that make the difference with unfriendly stage writing?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

Since the Gunfighter is a two handed shooter why shouldnt he shoot Traditional on splits?????

Because GF is considered an advanced DUELIST-style category...and the rules don't allow the use of two hands on one gun.

How often would that make the difference with unfriendly stage writing?

I'd ask a "B" Western shooter...they have that option.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Im new to the sport and as far as I am concerned there is no other way to have fun than with shootin GF but I notice the traditional guys win overal the overwhelming majority of the time. Has there ever been a GF overall winner? Should I strive for this or is it just not possible?

 

I've taken overall at my club's monthly match on rare occasions (I think its more due to luck of who shows up rather than any real skill on my part) and amongst the top gunfighters in our sport (of which I ain't even close to) the difference between them and "other" shooters is shrinking. Someday it will happen.

 

Do stages have an impact? Yes. No stage is entirely equal for every catagory. A GF usually loses a bit in transitions from/to revolvers because BOTH hands be occupied. He can't take use "other hand" like a duelist or traditional shooter would and go for the next long gun whilst the other hand holsters the revolver.

Mostly, a GF that alternates works the hammers fast but traditional shooters seem to be able to do it faster. (maybe because of the way the thumb works?!?)

 

Is overall a meaningless award simply because it is never "level" between catagories? Nope. (but wait until a Frontier Cartridge Duelist takes overall at EOT or WR. THEN you'll hear some noise!

[William Waddy]

A couple of years back Nuttin Graceful came in 4th place overall at EOT. That was better than the best GF at the match, and illustrates why having a GF'er win a national match is only a theory - the reality being very unlikely and subject to a very unusual set of conditions.

 

Specifically, even though a GF'er may be able to rattle off those pistol rounds in record time, they are at a disadvantage compared to two-handers AND double duelists when it comes to the all-important transitions. A gunfighter has to re-holster two guns at the same time and thus has both hands tied up when it comes to transitioning. On the other hand (har har) a two-handed shooter or double duelist is only using one hand to re-holster and therefore has one hand free in making the transition to the next gun.

 

IF (a big IF) a GF'er were to have a chance it would likely involve a combination of the following conditions:

• large close targets (mitigates problem of target acquisition and steadiness)
  
• pistols fired last on significant number of stages (mitigates transition disadvantage)
  
• few or no split pistol runs (mitigates possible disadvantage of having to shoot double-duelist)
  
• a really extraordinary GF'er (as Bud pointed out) whose skill level is relatively superior to competitors (this is the main reason why GF'ers sometimes do win local and state matches, but those odds diminish to nearly zero when competing against the best of the best two-handers and double duelists)
  

Bottom line -

possible? Yes, but only under a rare set of conditions

probable? No

[Widder, SASS #59054]

William Waddy commented on a particular item that caught my attention and that is:

 

if the pistols are last, the GF has a better chance of hanging with the big dogs.

 

 

Sooooo, I looked up the scores of Guns of August where ALOT of Big Guns gather for one of the best matches anywhere.

 

I specifically checked out 2 of the stages where pistols were last on those stages. Stage 3 and 11.

 

On Stages 3 and 11, there were 3 GFer's who ranked in the Top 11 on those stage times.

 

Stage 3, GFer's took 6, 10 and 11.

 

Stage 11, GFer's took 3, 4, and 10.

 

Not tooo shabby considering the number of TOP GUNS that were there with a total of about 315 shooters.

 

Just my observation.

 

 

..........Widder

[Greeenriver SASS #38681]

I've read this entire thread, and it's true, a Gunfighter can conpete with the fastese two handed shooters. What most of you have not mentioned is the fact that the pistols are only 1/3rd of any stage, the rest is rifle and shotgun, and more stages ae lost with the shotgun than any other gun. To take the top slot, anyone must be flawless with all three guns, and if the suported hand shooter bobbles the shotgun, the gunfighter will win. To be the best, everyone must be the best with all three firearms used. I truly think Red River Ray could give up a couple seconds each stage, and still win with his rifle and shotgun. Same with Deuce, or several others at that level.

 

Greeenriver

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

I think their showing based on current representation is staggering. I honestly believe that if their numbers were equal to the Traditional style shooters, their performance would be at least equal as well. The best one out of 50,000 SHOULD BE statistically better then the best one out of 5,000. As long as its popularity grows I think you will see its places in the standings rise proportionally.

[Pit Bull Tex]

I am new at this all and love to watch all the fast shooters shoot, I tried gunfighter the last two matches and had more fun than ever before.I look at the Vids. of all the differant shooters and love to watch them over and over. If I was told to shoot two handed or one handed or with my feets like the guy on U tube, I would do what ever I had to do to play the game.I started way late in life to be fast but I love it and will keep trying to get smoother and faster and have a ball doing it.

[Marshal Max Henry]

What is Outlaw GF?

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Outlaw GF is basically firing your pistols and SG from the hip or atleast no higher than your chest area, depending on who your watching and not using your sights the way us mere earthlings do. And of course, shooting GF style.

(I think those good OUTLAWS are Borg).

 

Rifles can be aimed and used from the shoulder.

 

 

..........Widder

[Critr]

I just switched to Gunfighter (actually SGF; I am 75 yrs young ). I'll never be any kind of champ,my goal is to meet/beat my 2-handed time. Shot my first gunfighter-style match (at Oak Ridge) clean .......... Now to work on time!

 

It is FUN!! I don't expect to ever go back to Elder Statesman.

 

Now to get the muscle coordination down................

[Chickahominy Charlie]

I'm not sure I could beat Possum Skinner if I had 3 HANDS!.....just sayin'.....

 

 

.....but it sure is fun to watch!

 

 

Although I'm fairly new to this, I would think that the only category that would be really tough to be "top dog" would be the black powder categories. How you could be as fast shooting BP (with all the target obscuration) as a smokeless shooter is beyond me......but you definitely win the "cool factor" category.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

I am going to go out on a limb and say that it does not take near as many stars to line up shooting FC as it does shooting Frontiersman, to challenge the smokeless shooters. A slightly breezy day and you are fully in the game. In my world of a perfectly divided SASS there would only be seven shooting categories; Duelist (single or double), Traditional (all two handed styles), FCD (single or double), Frontier Cartridge (all two handed styles, Frontiersman (all two handed styles), Frontiersman Duelist (single or double) and finally Modern (you do not want to know).

[Noz]

I am going to go out on a limb and say that it does not take near as many stars to line up shooting FC as it does shooting Frontiersman, to challenge the smokeless shooters. A slightly breezy day and you are fully in the game. In my world of a perfectly divided SASS there would only be seven shooting categories; Duelist (single or double), Traditional (all two handed styles), FCD (single or double), Frontier Cartridge (all two handed styles, Frontiersman (all two handed styles), Frontiersman Duelist (single or double) and finally Modern (you do not want to know).

 

 

Leave Frontiersman alone

 

The only people wanting to change Frontiersman are those that are not shooting Frontiersman. We're fine, don't try to help us.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

What a remarkable first post for a "guest" who joined today! Welcome back, Bisley Joe.

 

 

 

http://bisleyjoe.blogspot.com/

 

 

Looks like it may become a lively winter. I thought BJ got banned for life or something from the SASS Wire??

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Henry,

Do yourself a favor and completely ignore the comments by Brass Popper. Obviously since he really had nothing constructive to say concerning your question he was merely looking for a post on which to spread his dribble.

 

Now as to your question.....Yes they can.....but it will take someone that is VERY strong with all three types of firearms.

 

Stan

[Two Gun Johnnie]

I might be wrong (forgive me if I am), but didn't Badlands Ben win EOT several years back shooting Gunfighter????

 

 

Two Gun

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

I might be wrong (forgive me if I am), but didn't Badlands Ben win EOT several years back shooting Gunfighter????

 

 

Two Gun

 

 

I do not have the results in front of me but as I remember, Ben won Gunfughter and finished very high, but not the overall winner. His brother, Shalako Joe, may have been the winner that year.

[La Gata Loca]

The gunfighter is at a disadvantage most of the time in transitions and pistol cocking speed. The biggest difference when looking at a traditional shooter VS a gunfighter is in the mental approach to the stage. Unless the stage is VERY specific about target order, movement, and the timing of transitions (i.e ranges that do not let you draw until both feet are planted), a gunfighter will usually have a mental advantage on any gunfighter friendly stage (meaning a stage that does not require double duelist). For that to happen the gunfighter has to have a SUPERIOR understanding of ALL of the following - SASS and local range rules, your guns, your strengths and weaknesses in transitions, sighting and the difference between the whole target and the individual target area for each gun when shooting at the same target, and, most importantly, an ability to see and use different patterns and shooting orders than other people are using.

 

The mental game of gunfighter is ABSOLUTELY the key to beating people around you of equivalent, and even slightly better skill. I have, as a woman, shot against the men in most of the major matches I've participated in. I have ended up on the stage in a number of those matches, and won the Women's Gunfighter class at the regional. I have also occasionally won overall at local matches. If I shoot a series of side matches such as speed pistol, speed rifle, etc against my competitors you will see that my actual shooting times are generally slower than the people I am beating. I beat them in matches because I can mentally evaluate a stage and approach it in a way that their brains and shooting styles don't allow them to do.

 

If you're looking for something to improve on as a gunfighter the easiest and fastest way to improve is to read stages and see if there's a way you can shoot it differently from a traditional shooter (other than simply having a gun in each hand). The second thing to work on is making sure you can shoot ten shots in a manner OTHER than alternating and keep track of where you are in the string. The third is the ability to quickly shift focus from one eye to the other (unless you have eyesight problems in one eye this IS a trainable skill). This gives you the ability to shoot two targets at once, targets that are further apart, and transition from one target to the next independently with each gun. One of my pet peeves is watching gunfighters CHOOSE to double tap or dump on a single target when all that does is halve your actual target area for each gun or slow you down because you have to shift the guns slightly to align your sights. Switching eye focus means you can put one gun on each of two targets and go as fast as you can physically work the guns.

 

This is of course assuming that your gun handling skills are already adequate

 

Gunfighting is 95% a head game which is why I enjoy it. I personally find it far more challenging and engaging than shooting traditional. I think it's only a matter of time till we have someone who is ambidextrous and just as good at the mental game as the physical shooting game put it all together for the big win

 

Afterthought - If you hone your mental approach be prepared to swallow the occasional bad RO call or miss because the RO and spotters couldn't keep up with what you were doing

 

La Gata Loca

[Marshal Max Henry]

Afterthought - If you hone your mental approach be prepared to swallow the occasional bad RO call or miss because the RO and spotters couldn't keep up with what you were doing

 

La Gata Loca

AMEN to that

[Korupt Karl]

I ran a post sometime back asking GF's if they could shoot faster two handed than they do GF. With the exception of one they all said they could. The one no said he couldn't as he hadn't shot two handed in over eight years.

 

Conclusion: If a GF ever did win EOT or Winter Range or a match of this caliber..... shooting GF, then he could beat his time if he shot it two handed.....

 

Just my two scents....

 

KK

[La Gata Loca]

With the exception of one they all said they could. The one no said he couldn't as he hadn't shot two handed in over eight years.

 

 

Personally I find the answer is both a yes and a no for that question. My stage times improved considerably when I started shooting gunfighter because my brain simply works better that way. it "feels" right so I think about it less while shooting. I have tried to shoot with two hands from time to time and it always ends up as a comedy of errors. IF, and that's a BIG IF, I can get both hands to do what their supposed to do with only one gun I am faster. Most of the time I find that my brain and hands disconnect and i start trying to cock the gun again before I've fired it, unconsciously starting to move the gun to the other hand when I want to shoot a target on the other side of the stage, etc. Needless to say that slows me down significantly

 

My brain is just wired to have a gun in each hand. It felt right the first time I tried it.. like i'd been doing it all my life. But then.. ask anyone I've shot with. They'll all tell you my brain is wired different in everything not just gunfighter

 

La Gata Loca

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

I ran a post sometime back asking GF's if they could shoot faster two handed than they do GF. With the exception of one they all said they could. The one no said he couldn't as he hadn't shot two handed in over eight years.

 

Conclusion: If a GF ever did win EOT or Winter Range or a match of this caliber..... shooting GF, then he could beat his time if he shot it two handed.....

 

Just my two scents....

 

KK

 

If you will pardon a little analysis on the outcome of your survey; these gunfighters are saying that they choose to shoot gunfighter even though they feel it is a disadvantage. I would then conclude that they have made the decision that they would rather shoot gunfighter and not win than win shooting "traditional".

 

One could then extend that conclusion to say that these shooters do not put as much importance on winning as the shooters that face the same decision and go with two handed because they believe it increases their chance of finishing better overall.

 

You could also make the argument that the gunfighters that responded to your survey are of the"I can whip you with one hand tied behind my back." mentality.

 

Another aspect to consider is that the two handed shooters may be the most competitive and therefore the more likely to push their performance through practice and increased participation while the gunfighter is more likely to be a little laid back.

 

What seems more likely to me, however, is the thought that Gunfighter, Outlaw and other such "self-handicapping" categories attract a lot of shooters that have simply gotten so good that they get bored and are looking for a new challenge.

[Noz]

If you will pardon a little analysis on the outcome of your survey; these gunfighters are saying that they choose to shoot gunfighter even though they feel it is a disadvantage. I would then conclude that they have made the decision that they would rather shoot gunfighter and not win than win shooting "traditional".

 

One could then extend that conclusion to say that these shooters do not put as much importance on winning as the shooters that face the same decision and go with two handed because they believe it increases their chance of finishing better overall.

 

You could also make the argument that the gunfighters that responded to your survey are of the"I can whip you with one hand tied behind my back." mentality.

 

Another aspect to consider is that the two handed shooters may be the most competitive and therefore the more likely to push their performance through practice and increased participation while the gunfighter is more likely to be a little laid back.

 

What seems more likely to me, however, is the thought that Gunfighter, Outlaw and other such "self-handicapping" categories attract a lot of shooters that have simply gotten so good that they get bored and are looking for a new challenge.

 

Or we as self limiting shooters, I shoot Frontiersman, simply prefer to shoot the guns and the methods that we do. I was on the edge of becoming competitive in the old Modern category until someone turned an 1858 Remington loose behind me. I turned around to see what happened and all I saw was a cloud of smoke with a gun sticking out of it. I haven't shot smokeless in competition since.

An example of our mind set is one of the best Frontiersmen around in 2008 shot the Oklahoma State Championships. He had an excellent match but came in 43 overall. He was thrilled with his showing.

[La Gata Loca]

If you will pardon a little analysis on the outcome of your survey; these gunfighters are saying that they choose to shoot gunfighter even though they feel it is a disadvantage. I would then conclude that they have made the decision that they would rather shoot gunfighter and not win than win shooting "traditional".

 

One could then extend that conclusion to say that these shooters do not put as much importance on winning as the shooters that face the same decision and go with two handed because they believe it increases their chance of finishing better overall.

 

You could also make the argument that the gunfighters that responded to your survey are of the"I can whip you with one hand tied behind my back." mentality.

 

Another aspect to consider is that the two handed shooters may be the most competitive and therefore the more likely to push their performance through practice and increased participation while the gunfighter is more likely to be a little laid back.

 

What seems more likely to me, however, is the thought that Gunfighter, Outlaw and other such "self-handicapping" categories attract a lot of shooters that have simply gotten so good that they get bored and are looking for a new challenge.

 

 

I have certainly never considered gunfighter to be self limiting. It's more like self liberating Most of the gunfighters I know do it first because they enjoy it so you're right about that. However, I can honestly say that many of us consider ourselves competitive as well and certainly won't deny the advantage it gives us in certain situations. Most of us are simply shooting the class we perform the best in overall. There's a lot more to this game than how fast you can shoot your pistols.

[BJT]

There's a lot more to this game than how fast you can shoot your pistols.

 

Indeed there is, like transitions to and from revolvers, another place the gunfighter loses time, more time than he gains by the shot 5 to 6 transition.......

[La Gata Loca]

Indeed there is, like transitions to and from revolvers, another place the gunfighter loses time, more time than he gains by the shot 5 to 6 transition.......

 

 

I still contend that the loss in transition time can often be made up in mental approach to the stage. There are frequently approaches gunfighters can take that other shooters can't. These approaches can shave much more than simply eliminating transition between pistols. Unfortunately this isn't possible on every single stage. You are somewhat limited by the strictness of the stage writer. You can also minimize (but certainly not eliminate) the impact of transition between pistols and long guns by things like body position and planning ahead of time which gun you will use for your last shot. This does require the gunfighter have the ability to move one gun while shooting the other without screwing up. Takes a LOT of practice!

[BJT]

I still contend that the loss in transition time can often be made up in mental approach to the stage. There are frequently approaches gunfighters can take that other shooters can't. These approaches can shave much more than simply eliminating transition between pistols. Unfortunately this isn't possible on every single stage. You are somewhat limited by the strictness of the stage writer. You can also minimize (but certainly not eliminate) the impact of transition between pistols and long guns by things like body position and planning ahead of time which gun you will use for your last shot. This does require the gunfighter have the ability to move one gun while shooting the other without screwing up. Takes a LOT of practice!

 

 

I welcome any gunfighter to successfully demonstrate a technique that involves a transition with one hand while shooting with the other. It is not a novel concept but I have never seen it successfully proven.

 

Let us know.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[La Gata Loca]

I welcome any gunfighter to successfully demonstrate a technique that involves a transition with one hand while shooting with the other. It is not a novel concept but I have never seen it successfully proven.

 

Let us know.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

I'm just starting back after a very long absence so I'm a bit out of practice. When I've tuned that again I'll get someone to video it. I admit it is a VERY difficult thing to do well. Your body tends to follow the motion which pulls your shooting arm out of alignment. Even at my best it wasn't the most consistent thing in the world but then I never put hours of practice into it every week like some shooters do. I've been thinking for a long time about putting together some advanced gunfighting tips to get gunfighters thinking. Maybe this would be a good place to start.

 

In theory it's not that different from the really fast double duelists who start shooting their second pistol before they have the first all the way back in the holster. They're usually doing that unintentionally.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

I have certainly never considered gunfighter to be self limiting. It's more like self liberating Most of the gunfighters I know do it first because they enjoy it so you're right about that. However, I can honestly say that many of us consider ourselves competitive as well and certainly won't deny the advantage it gives us in certain situations. Most of us are simply shooting the class we perform the best in overall. There's a lot more to this game than how fast you can shoot your pistols.

 

My comments were aimed at the results of a particular survey and attempted to rationalize the results of that survey only. The survey(although probably not the most scientific ever devised) concluded that the gunfighters responding all(but 1) believed that they could be faster shooters with a two handed approach.

 

Personally, I shoot duelist and wouldn't know how to hold a revolver with two hands because that option never even entered my mind. Do I believe I could shoot faster with a two handed hold.

 

Probably, after an adjustment period, but I would still be slow and don't think I would enjoy it as much.

[Doc Shapiro]

I welcome any gunfighter to successfully demonstrate a technique that involves a transition with one hand while shooting with the other. It is not a novel concept but I have never seen it successfully proven.

 

Let us know.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

For that year I was shooting GF, I did it fairly often.