So, what would happen?

[Assassin]

I'm not trying to change anything, just wondering. What if the everyone including the T.O. had to stay quiet while shooters were shooting? No coaching, no assistance, etc. T.O. would still follow shooter and stop any unsafe actions.

 

 

LL'

[Doc Shapiro]

Likely a few more P's

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

I would get a whole bunch more Ps.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

PPPPPPPP!!!!

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

There used to some SASS matches that wouldn't even let the RO tell the shooter they were starting in a faulted position. Once you said you were ready, you were on your own till the end of the stage except for being DQed. Some took it to the exteme of even assessing a penalty for improperly saying the start line.

That stinks, that's why we allow coaching if you wish and have RO guidelines and training to never let a shooter start in a faulted position.

So what would happen? avoidable penalties, needless arguments, and less fun.

I know some shooters don't like coaching, talking, etc. That's fine, just say so, you can have it nice and quiet when you shoot.

I prefer to have a lot of good natured hollering egging me on.

Some of the stuff we do we actually have a reason for.

Joe

[Blastmaster]

fun factor would go down

[Assassin]

fun factor would go down

 

Not for those watching!

 

 

If I'm really focused I don't hear anything anyhow. At that point the RO doesn't even exist unless he/she gets in my way.

Hell, I can't hear when I'm not focused, just ask Belle.

 

 

LL'

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

Then why ask?

I don't think the family/friends of the youngster, new shooter, crippled up old shooter are really going to enjoy seeing that shooter get humiliated when a word or two could have guided them through the stage. The last time I saw such a thing, there wasn't any smiling.

Perhaps you don't run the timer much, or have exceptionaly experienced SASS shooters in your club as it's common for SASS shooters I've seen to step up and need some reminders of what's to be done.

[B. T. Blade, SASS #35685Life]

The way I see it, this game's about safety and fun. Both would be diminished without occasional coaching.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

It's a bad, bad idea. FUN would go way down. Even a GOOD shooter on a GOOD day can have a momentary lapse and a GOOD RO can save his match for him. For the mid pack or lower shooter, it'd become a memory contest, and it would be UGLY.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

On the other hand it might encourage shooters to pay attention to the briefing of the stage.

It might also encourage the stage designers to remember what this is all about...... ie it is entertainment.

This is a shooting competition not a memory test

That is it might cause stages to become simpler. IE more shooters choices like nevada sweep either direction.

Or shoot 5 on 3 must engage each target once.

Or all phases of shooting are the same.

Pistol, rifle and shotgun orders left to right etc.

[Blastmaster]

Not for those watching!

 

 

If I'm really focused I don't hear anything anyhow. At that point the RO doesn't even exist unless he/she gets in my way.

Hell, I can't hear when I'm not focused, just ask Belle.

 

 

LL'

 

I've been on posses where the main TO didn't say a word after the beep for the entire match. His attitude was cold and to the point. It was a cold/dull and unfriendly posse/atmosphere/match for me.

 

I particularly don't like watching a shooter get penalties where a little coaching could have prevented it.

 

I do enjoy when the posse is working 'together' in trying to get each shooter through each stage safely and w/o penalties. Proper coaching at the proper time is an ecential ingredient to this. Perhaps coaching only occured a few times for the entire match for the posse, but it sets the tone and fun factor.

[Matthew Duncan]

On the other hand it might encourage shooters to pay attention to the briefing of the stage.

It might also encourage the stage designers to remember what this is all about...... ie it is entertainment....

 

 

Agreed.

 

I don't coach UNLESS the Shooter requests it, seems unusually nervous, or is a known Newbie.

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

Agreed.

 

I don't coach UNLESS the Shooter requests it, seems unusually nervous, or is a known Newbie.

 

I'd go with that line of thinking Matthew, but to expand.. At a local match where I know the shooters I am aware if coaching is needed or necessary or wanted. At anything above a local match I'm inclined to ask the shooter if they want me to be quiet. There always seem to be the rare few that come to the line unprepared and have no reason for such. There are also those that try their best but need help to make it through a stage and are grateful for assistance. It's just one more thing a TO has to think about when he's running the show!!

[Marauder SASS #13056]

The way I see it, this game's about safety and fun. Both would be diminished without occasional coaching.

 

+1

 

And what Colt McCloud added.

[JESAMY KID]

I nkow some shooters don't want to be coached they get focused at the line and just want to go. I do believe that most don't mind an occational No the other Left. It might save a P. "Heck it might help ya win the Cadillac".

 

Jesamy

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

Although I risk being yelled at:

 

I have mixed emotions on coaching, depending on the definition used.

 

On a personal level, I enjoy harrassment and ribbing from my friends so I'm not talking about that part.

On the other hand, except for safety issues, I would like to see coaching limited to the TO since I don't like team shooting.

 

A group of people shouting out every step of a stage is not my idea of proper coaching, but there is no replacement for a good TO.

[Willy Whiskers]

I see this from 3 directions; as an RO, shooter and stage writer.

 

As an RO, I always ask if the shooter understands the course of fire. This is I do even if the shooter is the RO I just spelled so he could shoot. What I get from this is a sense of where the shooter is mentally and how much help he might need. Another point of help often comes from the spotters who might yell out, “left target” or the like. This seems to distract the shooter more than the advice the RO might give. Sometimes I have had a opinionated RO as a spotter who overtops the active RO and talked directly to the shooter. The point of all this is that there are other points of distraction to consider besides the RO

 

As a shooter, sometimes I am on my game and hit the line ready to shoot and other times my brain is in a pickle jar and all the help I can get is all the help I can get. If I’m on I simple ignore the advice as my concentration is keeping me going. When I need help it is welcome. What matters to me is that the RO pays attention to me, but doesn’t get in the way.

 

As a stage writer, the balance of the match, stage by stage, is paramount. A poor stage, with obvious opportunities for P’s must be avoided. Having said that, one cannot write a stage that cannot be screwed up by a shooter or defeated by an over active RO. These are people we are dealing with, people with minds that flow back and forth, in dynamic flux amid guns, movement, interaction between the participants and all that came before. The stage writer can only establish a framework to act within. Sometimes we all need help. WW

[Red Rider Rudy]

I think if a shooter is standing there with the Deer in the headlights look, he may need coached???????????? Most matchs i have been to the RO will ask does shooter understand the course of fire?

 

Then it's shooter ready? Stand bye? "BEEP" then comes the brain FART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! some times we need that coach.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I run the timer a fair amount of time.

 

When the shooter comes to the line - we are partners.

The shooters job is to negotiate the shooting challenge - my job is to safely assist.

 

This means trying to protect the shooter and posse from physical harm by being close enough to stop or control a wayward movement. (firing after a squib - breaking the 170 - moving with a cocked gun - etc.)

 

This means trying to protect the shooter from themselves by assisting with equipment issues (calling out hulls in 97's - levers not opened - cocked hammers on pistols being reholstered - etc.)

 

This means trying to protect the shooter from themselves by assisting with scoring issues (calling out "one more" - "Target one" - telling them where they are shooting if they miss, i.e. "you're shooting over the top" or yelling "Shotgun" when they pickup the rifle - etc.)

 

SASS is not always an individual sport - it easily turns into a team sport.

Good timers and good spotters can mean as much to a good run as a good shooter.

 

I enjoy the challenge of cowboy action shooting, but I enjoy the challenge and focus required to be a good timer or spotter as well.

[Madd Mike #8595]

very leading question

 

NO coaching by whom????

 

no coaching at all

only TO coaching

 

what would be the Penalty if someone coached?

 

just trying to understand the question

[Blackjack Zak]

"Coaching" has been a hot topic of late, and the subject of much discussion around the campfire at some of the matches I have been to lately. It will also be one of the subjects of discussion at the TG Summit in a couple of weeks, as there seems to be some issues that need to be sorted out.

 

Rowdy's earlier comment regarding 'team shooting', or rather how team shooting is being used as coaching is one of the issues that needs to be addressed. We are also seeing folks deliberately using 'incorrect coaching' to generate a reshoot for a buddy who is having a bad stage! (believe it or not, it is happening).

 

Personally, I think coaching is a very important part of what a good TO should be doing, when used in the right amount and at the right time, given the level of shooter being coached. Some folks like to be coached, some folks don't. Most good TOs know when and how much is right....it is a very subjective thing.

 

Coaching is part of what makes CAS a fun, family oriented sport, and adds to the friendly atmosphere which is so important. A good TO, and Posse Marshal, can set the tone for all posse members for the match. It is so important to set a good tone, be enthusiatic, helpful and fun loving.....this is the 'fellowship' part of sport which I love...and I think the vast majority of shooter do also. SO.....yes coaching is important, and necessary....and we should never lose that part of our sport. IMHO

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Shooter owns the stage. RO is there to assist and unless shooter makes it plain they prefer no coaching, will get RO's assistance if it is needed. The Spotters CAN assist if they see something the RO misses (they are covered by the "bad coaching' rule on reshoots) but the rest of the posse needs to allow the shooter and the Range Officials to do their thing, respecting em by keeping shut.

 

But having said that, we know when AND WITH WHAT SHOOTERS (those who give and get a good razzing, and aren't sweating their times) it is appropriate to raise a little he77, or holler encouragement. But for those who are serious, it's bad form, kinda like yelling when somebody is about to putt a golf ball.....

[Assassin]

very leading question

 

NO coaching by whom????

 

no coaching at all

only TO coaching

 

what would be the Penalty if someone coached?

 

just trying to understand the question

 

 

MM,

No coaching period. Like I said in the OP, not trying to change anything. Just read another post about TO stopping a shooter needlessly and causing him to DQ. I know all shooters need good coaching from time to time. Perhaps, during "top ten shoot off", or "man on man" coaching should be eliminated. If a shooter's made it to the big show he should know what's going on.

 

IMHO, no coaching is better than poor coaching. I think every shooter should designate one person to coach them on each stage. The TO is not always the best coach and too many coaches can confuse the shooter.

 

 

LL'

[Madd Mike #8595]

MM,

No coaching period.

I think every shooter should designate one person to coach them on each stage. The TO is not always the best coach and too many coaches can confuse the shooter.

 

 

LL'

 

I am just one of many TGs that will be discussing this.............................. next week

what should the penatly be if someone else coaches, the person illegaly coaching gets a ????

this will be interesting

[Blackjack Zak]

I am just one of many TGs that will be discussing this.............................. next week

what should the penatly be if someone else coaches, the person illegaly coaching gets a ????

this will be interesting

 

 

 

Should be interesting if nothing else! See you there Mike....

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

No coaching period.

...

IMHO, no coaching is better than poor coaching. I think every shooter should designate one person to coach them on each stage. The TO is not always the best coach and too many coaches can confuse the shooter.

...

Which is it...NO coaching or "personalized" coaching??

 

If a shooter wishes to rely on a "designated coach" other than one of the 'line RO's' (T/O & spotters), there is currently no provision for a RESHOOT in event misdirection is given.

 

Generally speaking, the T/O (being closest to the shooter) is usually in the BEST position to "assist" the shooter.

The spotters are also assigned the duty to assist re: round count & preventing or calling safety violations.

[Blackjack Zak]

Which is it...NO coaching or "personalized" coaching??

 

If a shooter wishes to rely on a "designated coach" other than one of the 'line RO's' (T/O & spotters), there is currently no provision for a RESHOOT in event misdirection is given.

 

Generally speaking, the T/O (being closest to the shooter) is usually in the BEST position to "assist" the shooter.

The spotters are also assigned the duty to assist re: round count & preventing or calling safety violations.

 

 

Absolutely......well said.

[Assassin]

Which is it...NO coaching or "personalized" coaching??

 

If a shooter wishes to rely on a "designated coach" other than one of the 'line RO's' (T/O & spotters), there is currently no provision for a RESHOOT in event misdirection is given.

 

Generally speaking, the T/O (being closest to the shooter) is usually in the BEST position to "assist" the shooter.

The spotters are also assigned the duty to assist re: round count & preventing or calling safety violations.

 

So, the shooter can request the TO of his/her choice. I don't want a "green horn" running the timer and coaching/assisting me at a major match. If one gets lousy coaching from the counters do they get a reshoot if they are misdirected? Penalty for illegal coaching, brass pickup or banishment to the LT or ULT.

 

LL'

[Snakebite]

Just like the old saying that "Too many Cooks ruin the Stew", it also plays out in CAS. "Too many Coaches ruin the Stage". I agree with Creeker on this one.... a good T.O. should have his/her mind in the game and be on top of things, ready to give assistance to the shooter WHEN IT IS NEEDED. (Some shooters ask that no coaching be given) That does not mean that the T.O. or anyone else should be yelling step by step instructions to the shooter. (Team Shooting) I've been on posses where it sounded like a High School cheer leading squad with all the instructions being yelled. This causes a number of problems. One problem is the mess that occurs when someone yells out the WRONG instructions! Another problem is when constant coaching comes from the spotters, it inhibits thier ability to do a good job of SPOTTING! In most cases, I prefer the coaching to come from the T.O. It is a fact that the Spotters have a job to do in assisting the T.O., and I don't mean to discount that, but the bulk of the Coaching should come from the T.O.

 

Snakebite

[Snakebite]

So, the shooter can request the TO of his/her choice. I don't want a "green horn" running the timer and coaching/assisting me at a major match. If one gets lousy coaching from the counters do they get a reshoot if they are misdirected? Penalty for illegal coaching, brass pickup or banishment to the LT or ULT.

 

LL'

 

 

I'll answer that one... NO. It is not the shooter that appoints the T.O., it is the Posse Leader. For the most part, if the shooter is not ready to shoot the stage on his/her own, then the shooter should not be up on the fireing line. Coaching is just an assistance to the shooter, when possible. The shooter is suppose to shoot the stage.

 

Snakebite

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Leave it alone!!!!! The TO is there to safely assist the shooter thru the course of fire! NOT all TOs are created equal and some shoots with appointed TOs that are not to say anything. Hogwash!!!!!!!! In that case I would line up behind the TO to safely assist the shooter. It's a shame, but that is the one of very few complaints about that shoot.

 

Team coaching? So what? I've shot with posses like that and they have the most fun. The are all involved and having a ball.

If you don't like that sort of posse, make sure you don't sign up with one.

 

Did I say leave it alone?

 

Cheyenne

[Madd Mike #8595]

life is always bout choices

 

I was recently at a out of state annual shoot

TO's are NOT created equal

 

I would line up at the loading table 90% while the best TO was on base

 

and I still wanted no coaching...................

 

I and others, just wanted brass pickersn and timer operators out of the next direction of travel...............

[Snakebite]

Leave it alone!!!!! The TO is there to safely assist the shooter thru the course of fire! NOT all TOs are created equal and some shoots with appointed TOs that are not to say anything. Hogwash!!!!!!!! In that case I would line up behind the TO to safely assist the shooter. It's a shame, but that is the one of very few complaints about that shoot.

 

Team coaching? So what? I've shot with posses like that and they have the most fun. The are all involved and having a ball.

If you don't like that sort of posse, make sure you don't sign up with one.

 

Did I say leave it alone?

 

Cheyenne

 

 

That sounds good to me... I usually don't sign up with them... but what about the spotters that are so busy Coaching the shooter that they just don't see the misses! Fun is one thing, and everybody wants to have it. It's quite another thing to have officiating going out the window because some members are not doing thier job. If they want to jump up and down, do the high leg kicks and work the POM POMS, then they should get out of the Spotters posisiton and stay put in the backfield. Leave it alone.......... NO, I will not. Every R.O. has his or her job to do, and if they aren't doing it, then they need to be removed from the posisition... I don't care WHO THEY ARE.

 

Snakebite

[Blackjack Zak]

Just like the old saying that "Too many Cooks ruin the Stew", it also plays out in CAS. "Too many Coaches ruin the Stage". I agree with Creeker on this one.... a good T.O. should have his/her mind in the game and be on top of things, ready to give assistance to the shooter WHEN IT IS NEEDED. (Some shooters ask that no coaching be given) That does not mean that the T.O. or anyone else should be yelling step by step instructions to the shooter. (Team Shooting) I've been on posses where it sounded like a High School cheer leading squad with all the instructions being yelled. This causes a number of problems. One problem is the mess that occurs when someone yells out the WRONG instructions! Another problem is when constant coaching comes from the spotters, it inhibits thier ability to do a good job of SPOTTING! In most cases, I prefer the coaching to come from the T.O. It is a fact that the Spotters have a job to do in assisting the T.O., and I don't mean to discount that, but the bulk of the Coaching should come from the T.O.

 

Snakebite

 

 

Well said Snakebite....there is a line that needs to be defined. We all want to have fun, but sometimes that fun can explode into creating problems on the posse, and for the shooter. We have to strike a balance here.