So, what would happen?

[Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195]

On the other hand it might encourage shooters to pay attention to the briefing of the stage.

It might also encourage the stage designers to remember what this is all about...... ie it is entertainment.

This is a shooting competition not a memory test

That is it might cause stages to become simpler. IE more shooters choices like nevada sweep either direction.

Or shoot 5 on 3 must engage each target once.

Or all phases of shooting are the same.

Pistol, rifle and shotgun orders left to right etc.

thanks to the medication my daughter takes she has a real problem with short term memorey. Because of this she pays very close attention to the stage walk through but she STILL has to confirm the instructions before she shoots. If not for the occasional coaching CAS would be a frustration for her and nothing more.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

thanks to the medication my daughter takes she has a real problem with short term memorey. Because of this she pays very close attention to the stage walk through but she STILL has to confirm the instructions before she shoots. If not for the occasional coaching CAS would be a frustration for her and nothing more.

 

 

I understand how problems with your memory works. It's no fun and very frustrating. Maybe that's why I like it when the RO helps out and directs me if he sees I'm off course somehow.

 

Like someone else said, without help there would be a lot of procedurals.

 

[Barterin Bill]

I run the timer a fair amount of time.

 

When the shooter comes to the line - we are partners.

The shooters job is to negotiate the shooting challenge - my job is to safely assist.

 

This means trying to protect the shooter and posse from physical harm by being close enough to stop or control a wayward movement. (firing after a squib - breaking the 170 - moving with a cocked gun - etc.)

 

This means trying to protect the shooter from themselves by assisting with equipment issues (calling out hulls in 97's - levers not opened - cocked hammers on pistols being reholstered - etc.)

 

This means trying to protect the shooter from themselves by assisting with scoring issues (calling out "one more" - "Target one" - telling them where they are shooting if they miss, i.e. "you're shooting over the top" or yelling "Shotgun" when they pickup the rifle - etc.)

 

SASS is not always an individual sport - it easily turns into a team sport.

Good timers and good spotters can mean as much to a good run as a good shooter.

 

I enjoy the challenge of cowboy action shooting, but I enjoy the challenge and focus required to be a good timer or spotter as well.

 

I agree.

I survived the 60's and the 70's. I listen when the stage is being explained, and usually read over it a couple more times, but sometimes I still forget little details when I step up to fire (like knowing my line). I am usually coming off of the loading or unloading table. I work for a while to watch other shooters to help my memory. I still appreciate it when the TO gives me some advice when I step up, or tells me if he sees I'm about to make an error. I'm new at this, but I doubt if I'll ever to to the point where I tell them to shut up and let me shoot. If they are willing to try to help, I'll listen graciously no matter how good I think I am. A smart man told me once long ago that what ever you are doing, if you think you know it all you need to do something else.

[Cowboy Junky]

I don’t know about everyone else….but nuthin’ makes me happier than to help out a shooter that is struggling in a stage. If I save someone a “P” or prevent a safety issue I feel like I’m doing my job as a TO. Sometimes things get by you because a Million things can happen and you have a fraction of a second to see it and react but it makes me feel guilty if I do miss something. Of course it all falls back on the shooter (unless you impede them) but IMO helpin’ out the shooter is rewarding and what I’m there for…..I couldn’t just stand there and let someone do something wrong…..you would have to get another TO for that.

[Barterin Bill]

I don’t know about everyone else….but nuthin’ makes me happier than to help out a shooter that is struggling in a stage. If I save someone a “P” or prevent a safety issue I feel like I’m doing my job as a TO. Sometimes things get by you because a Million things can happen and you have a fraction of a second to see it and react but it makes me feel guilty if I do miss something. Of course it all falls back on the shooter (unless you impede them) but IMO helpin’ out the shooter is rewarding and what I’m there for…..I couldn’t just stand there and let someone do something wrong…..you would have to get another TO for that.

 

It's TO's like you that make the game fun.

Thanks.

[BJT]

At some level of comeptition, it should be about the competitor and not about the quality of help they get.

 

The only argument I can see for allowing coaching is that at the level it becomes an issue, the winners never need coaching. I am not sure how valid that is or is not. Even world champion BP shooters enjoy an advantage with an RO who is competent at calling shotgun targets up/down.

 

It should be obvious but I have seen it questioned in this thread, the TO should always correct unsafe actions.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Even champeen shooters sometimes ask for coaching. One example comes to mind. A stage with split pistols, SG in between, all from the same spot. The top tier shooter who WROTE THE STAGE asked the RO to sing out "Shotgun" as he finished with his first pistol, thinking he might reach for the second pistol out of habit.....

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Amen Creeker.

Amen Cowboy Junky.

Amen Cheyenne Culpepper.

 

Just for the record, your alias does not have to begin with the letter C to get an amen from me...even though it appears that way.

 

As for the rest of the record:

I can walk and chew gum.

I can shoot holding a pistol in each hand.

If a shooter needs some help while I'm spotting and the TO is slow on the draw, I'm helping the shooter.

 

Thus far, I haven't been responsible for Hell freezing over.

 

If someone is intentionally causing a re-shoot to help a buddy...I believe that would fall under the category of cheater. I fail to understand why we would try to legislate a cure for cheating that would penalize everyone. We don't need another rule.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Do we really want to get to this? From the USPSA handbook for handgun competition, 2008:

 

"8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor

during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance)

may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural

penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6."

 

Now, after saying that I have actually seen one occasion where a competitor had some one in the posse yell out a wrong target at a certain point in the stage. At first, I didn't understand it but then I actually overheard the disscussion after that person shot. I was shocked to say the least. I never would have thought about doing this, and was surprised when some one actually did it.

 

So, I don't know what the answer would be, but I don't think we should get rid of coaching, at least by the TO.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

I am one who needs and appreciates "team" coaching. The whole posse knows I need all the help I can get and gets into it. If it weren't for coaching I would get way more procedurals.

 

I'm a big fan of coaching.

 

On the other hand, I'm not a very good coach myself. It's best for everyone if I just keep my mouth shut during another's run. I am working on that.

[Barterin Bill]

If someone is intentionally causing a re-shoot to help a buddy...I believe that would fall under the category of cheater. I fail to understand why we would try to legislate a cure for cheating that would penalize everyone. We don't need another rule.

 

There is a rule that cover that. It called the "Spirit of the Game" It should be called on both the shooter and his buddy if it is happening. Maybe a warning the first time, but let all the club officials know if you think it happened so the culprits can be watched.

[crooked jake,4371]

I'm not trying to change anything, just wondering. What if the everyone including the T.O. had to stay quiet while shooters were shooting? No coaching, no assistance, etc. T.O. would still follow shooter and stop any unsafe actions.

 

 

LL'

 

 

LL .....yer not really suggesting that the shooters performance be put on the shooter themselves ........

 

Come on.............. those days are loooooooooooooooooooong gone .......its all about feelin good about yerself........

 

 

So, I don't know what the answer would be, but I don't think we should get rid of coaching, at least by the TO.<<<<<<<<<what DD said

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

I don't have a problem with coaching a shooter but I do have a BIG problem with shooters who don't bother to listen to the stage instructions before the posse starts the stage or bother to learn the stage before it's their turn to shoot.

 

We have one shooter who doesn't pay attention during the stage instructions, stands in the back gossiping with people, always has to be told when it is time for him to go to the loading table and then walks up to the firing position and says "So, what's the scenario"?

 

SCG

[Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195]

I don't have a problem with coaching a shooter but I do have a BIG problem with shooters who don't bother to listen to the stage instructions before the posse starts the stage or bother to learn the stage before it's their turn to shoot.

 

We have one shooter who doesn't pay attention during the stage instructions, stands in the back gossiping with people, always has to be told when it is time for him to go to the loading table and then walks up to the firing position and says "So, what's the scenario"?

 

SCG

that could get old real quick

[Madd Mike #8595]

eeeeeeeeeeeeee-pif---------------A-----------Knee

coaching rules

will vary

with the newly precribed age grooops that sum are wishin fer beyond what we already have)

 

how elese cud ya do it

 

folks

I am a tg, solve this so we can save time at the convention

 

coaching

1. yes
   
2. no
   
3. sometimes
   
4. maybee
   

[Shooting Bull]

eeeeeeeeeeeeee-pif---------------A-----------Knee

coaching rules

will vary

with the newly precribed age grooops that sum are wishin fer 9beyond what we already have)

 

how elese cud ya do it

 

 

You are one SICK son of a gun.

 

 

I'm absolutely NOT a top tier shooter but, I do consider myself to have better than average brain power. (Please don't ask my wife's opinion on that.) That being said, I have had my fair share of cranial vapor locks. No worse feeling in the world than to stand there with a rifle on my shoulder and not have a clue what to do with it. On the other hand, there's no better felling in the world than to hear the firm voice of the RO telling me what target to engage next. (Well, there are better feelings than that but, they aren't fit to print here. )

[Madd Mike #8595]

yer so sick I changed my post

folks

please re-read it

[Shooting Bull]

eeeeeeeeeeeeee-pif---------------A-----------Knee

coaching rules

will vary

with the newly precribed age grooops that sum are wishin fer beyond what we already have)

 

how elese cud ya do it

 

folks

I am a tg, solve this so we can save time at the convention

 

coaching

1. yes
   
2. no
   
3. sometimes
   
4. maybee
   

 

 

C: And that's my final answer.

 

 

 

 

No wait.

 

 

 

 

Uhhhhh

 

 

 

 

 

27 1/2 Yeah, that's it 27 1/2

 

 

 

 

Darn it, what was the question?

[Snakebite]

At some level of comeptition, it should be about the competitor and not about the quality of help they get.

 

The only argument I can see for allowing coaching is that at the level it becomes an issue, the winners never (rarely) need coaching. I am not sure how valid that is or is not. Even world champion BP shooters enjoy an advantage with an RO who is competent at calling shotgun targets up/down.It should be obvious but I have seen it questioned in this thread, the TO should always correct unsafe actions.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

+1

 

I very much appreciate a T.O. that will say "Shoot it again" if I fail to knock down the SG target.... it usually happens on the second target... simply can't see. I think that type of Coaching is especially helpful and proper.

 

Snakebite

[Ringo Fire, SASS # 46037]

First of all folks I think coaching does WAAAY more good than harm regardless where it comes from. I've coached people correctly, and being human, I've brain farted and coached people incorrectly. I've been coached correctly and I've been coached incorrectly, and I still think coaching is MUCH better than no coaching at all. I've seen people shoot a shotgun target, seen it move and hang for a beat or 2, called the target up, and seen it fall before being reingaged, then had to correct my original call of up. With that being said, ultimately it is the responsibility of the shooter to know the course of fire. The shooter is not required to listen to any coaching. As for the point brought up about a "green T.O." at a major shoot giving improper coaching....My question is this, WHAT IN THE WIDE WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS IS A GREEN T.O. DOING RUNNING A TIMER AT A MAJOR SHOOT? A major match is NO place to be honing your timer skills, or your counting skills for that matter. That is what club matches are for. As for the point of the counters being too busy coaching to count correctly, then it is the T.O.'s responsibility to get 3 new counters that can pay better attention. I've seen 3 counters watch a shooter run a stage and when the T.O. asked for misses, one counter held up 5 fingers, one held up 3, and one said clean, and they were paying attention!!! The situation I just described happened to a fast gunfighter, and I've seen it happen to really fast squaw grip shooters too! I've also had shooters request "No coaching, unless you see me doing something wrong". WHAT??? Folks you can't have it both ways, either you want it or you don't. What it boils down to is this...Use some common sense, and if you see a green T.O. at a major match or counters not paying attention, calmly request a different timer or counters, and take responsibility for your actions if you mess up the stage.

[Ghost, SASS #50125]

....My question is this, WHAT IN THE WIDE WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS IS A GREEN T.O. DOING RUNNING A TIMER AT A MAJOR SHOOT?

 

+1

 

m2cw: Coaching by the T.O. is good, if needed or requested by shooter. Counters should count misses or P's and assist on safety issues.

 

Ghost

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

When the buzzer goes off, I mute the volume. 99.9% of the time I don't hear anything said, behind me, beside me or anywhere else, till I'm done.