Speaking of 97's....

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Reading the Winchester Model 12 thread reminded me of this video by Mark Novak, on a Model 97 project.

 

Kinda long, but pretty darned interesting - a very clear explanation of the workings of the John Moses Browning designed shotgun.  It's a complex booger, not surprising at all, considering from whose imagination it was hatched!  

 

And of course, clearly the inspiration for Thomas Crosley Johnson and his sleek Model 12 design.   

 

 

   

Edited October 17 by Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967

[Eyesa Horg]

He doesn't seem to recommend shooting them like many cowpoke do!

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

for some ODD reason , I have the urge to take a 97 or a Mod 12 

 

 polish the fire out of it and finish in PLUM Brown 

 

 saving grace is I am broke and LAZY  

 

   CB 

[Alpo]

I noticed he kept harping on "does not look as if this gun has ever been taken apart".

 

So? When I got my first 1911 I was shown how to detail strip it. And I did it. I've done it three or four times. I don't do it anymore. I see no need to. I've never detailed stripped any other 1911 I got.

 

I've never disassembled a 94 Winchester. Colt model m - I hear that is a serious booger to take apart and then put back together. I ain't never done it.

 

But I just got the impression from listening to him that he believes that you should detail strip your guns at least once a month. Take them all the way apart to the last little bolt nut screw and washer, because that's the only way that you can clean it and make sure it works.

 

I wonder if he disassembles his car every month or so?

[Eyesa Horg]

7 minutes ago, Alpo said:

I noticed he kept harping on "does not look as if this gun has ever been taken apart".

 

So? When I got my first 1911 I was shown how to detail strip it. And I did it. I've done it three or four times. I don't do it anymore. I see no need to. I've never detailed stripped any other 1911 I got.

 

I've never disassembled a 94 Winchester. Colt model m - I hear that is a serious booger to take apart and then put back together. I ain't never done it.

 

But I just got the impression from listening to him that he believes that you should detail strip your guns at least once a month. Take them all the way apart to the last little bolt nut screw and washer, because that's the only way that you can clean it and make sure it works.

 

I wonder if he disassembles his car every month or so?

Also every time he took it more apart he commented on all the gack! It didn't look all rusty or crudded up to me. While I understand his liability issues, I think he should have explained the slam fire design to the owner before putting mega hours into it. 

Wonder how often the OBD issue occurs, can't say I've ever heard of a cowboy blowing one up like that! Seems if it was an issue we'd know about it and there'd be a rule against slam firing.

[Alpo]

I agree with him on that. "Slam firing" is totally stupid. The gun was not "designed to be slam fired". The gun was designed back at a time when people were considered to be intelligent, and knew that you were supposed to take your finger off the trigger before you worked the action. It has no disconnector because there was no need for a disconnector. The disconnector was up there between your ears.

 

They did not start putting mechanical disconnectors in firearms until they came out with semi-automatic repeating firearms. And that was simply because the action worked faster than most people can take their finger off the trigger. Without the disconnector you get unintended double and triple taps. Or magazine dumps.

 

I've got four, I believe, firearms that can be "slam fired". A Winchester 97, a Winchester 90, a Rossi 62 (which is basically a copy of a Winchester 90) and an Ithaca 37. All four of these guns will fire as long as you hold the trigger back and work the pump. I have never done it on any of them. I consider it a stupid and dangerous thing to do.

 

It's like bump firing. People who want to pretend they have a machine gun - who refer to a machine guns as having the "happy switch" - are the people that do this.

 

Thinking on it a little, I have many more guns than four that can be slam fired. If you tie the trigger back, and then work the action, every time the action closes my 92 Winchesters will fire and my Colt single actions will fire. Also copies of my 92 Winchesters and my Colt Single actions.

[Sedalia Dave]

As I understand it the ability to slam fire the 97 was considered a serious benefit when clearing trenches during WWI. Allowed our GI's to rapidly fire 6 rounds then fall back while his buddy advanced and did the same. 

 

The lethality of multiple rounds of 00 buck in a confined space is why the Germans attempted to get the 97 outlawed. 

[Chantry]

2 hours ago, Alpo said:

I've never disassembled a 94 Winchester. Colt model m - I hear that is a serious booger to take apart and then put back together. I ain't never done it.

 

Both a PIA to reassemble.  The Colt requires a vice to put back together because you need both hands for other things.  A Colt M 1903 in .32 ACP is a joy to shoot, no recoil and very fast.

[Chantry]

2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Wonder how often the OBD issue occurs, can't say I've ever heard of a cowboy blowing one up like that! Seems if it was an issue we'd know about it and there'd be a rule against slam firing.

 Way back when, taking the lock bar out of a 1897 was considered a quick and easy "action" job and the gun WILL fire out of battery with the lock bar removed.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

As I understand it the ability to slam fire the 97 was considered a serious benefit when clearing trenches during WWI. Allowed our GI's to rapidly fire 6 rounds then fall back while his buddy advanced and did the same. 

 

The lethality of multiple rounds of 00 buck in a confined space is why the Germans attempted to get the 97 outlawed. 

 

 

 

[Alpo]

1 hour ago, Chantry said:

A Colt M 1903 in .32 ACP is a joy to shoot, no recoil and very fast.

Absolutely.

 

This is Sallie. One of the very few of my guns that has a name. The only thing wrong with her is she does not have enough magazines.

 

[Chantry]

4 hours ago, Alpo said:

Absolutely.

 

This is Sallie. One of the very few of my guns that has a name. The only thing wrong with her is she does not have enough magazines.

 

 

I bought a couple of after market ones that work fine.  I just looked and the manufacturer's name isn't listed, I think they are Triple K magazines.

[Pat Riot]

6 hours ago, Alpo said:

Absolutely.

 

This is Sallie. One of the very few of my guns that has a name. The only thing wrong with her is she does not have enough magazines.

 

 

1 hour ago, Chantry said:

 

I bought a couple of after market ones that work fine.  I just looked and the manufacturer's name isn't listed, I think they are Triple K magazines.

Yep - Triple K

https://triplek.com/product/colt-pocket-m-1903-1926-32acp-8-rd-magazine-or-grips/

 

 

I also only have one named gun. 
 

Brutus - S&W 327 8 shot .357 Magnum

[Blackwater 53393]

12 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Also every time he took it more apart he commented on all the gack! It didn't look all rusty or crudded up to me. While I understand his liability issues, I think he should have explained the slam fire design to the owner before putting mega hours into it. 

Wonder how often the OBD issue occurs, can’t say I’v ever heard of a cowboy blowing one up like that!

Seems if it was an issue we'd know about it and there'd be a rule against slam firing.

Well! Now you have heard of a ‘97 blown up from firing out of battery!!  I doesn’t just happen from slam firing!!

 

I have a solid frame 1906 model that I bought with the top of the receiver split open and raised up almost an inch.  I bought it for parts and it was all there. The “flag” had been disabled, whether intentionally or not I can’t say, and the bolt was driven backward and stuck.

 

I disassembled it and was fixing to put all of the salvaged parts in a drawer for later use, but I got to looing at it and decided I would see if my welding skills were what I thought they were.

 

I carefully pressed the top of the receiver back into place and ground out grooves in the places where it was cracked.  I set up my TiG welder and slowly welded small sections of the cracked area back together, adding a little extra metal as I went. I’d weld a little patch and skip a space allowing it to cool between applications.  When it was all welded, I ground, filed, and sanded the outside back smooth. Then I hand broached the slots and lands on the inside of the receiver and assembled the bolt, (a spare from my parts collection. The original was too damaged to repair) and checked the action for rough spots and obstructions.

 

I pulled it apart and sent it to be magnafluxed. I repaired a couple of hidden flaws and repeated the process. It took a couple of tries to get it fixed, but after a good cleaning, some polishing, and a bluing, I put it all back together with the flag repaired, a new ivory front bead, a nice refinish and some trimming on the stock, and the bolt out of a trap gun that had been parted out some years ago.

 

Then there’s the ‘97 owned by Fredrick Jackson Turner that suffered the same fate at his hands, (I tried to buy that one from him to see if I could do it again) at a match somewhere out west.  
 

There are other accounts of this happening as well, but those are two that I can attest to as being absolutely factual.

 

By the way!! I shoot that little ‘97 regularly and have had no issues with it!  It’s a favorite of mine and we named it FRANKENSTEIN!!

 

 

 

Edited October 19 by Blackwater 53393

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

I have seen said 97 of Blackwater's. Technically it;s name should be Frankenstein Jr.

 

Imis

[Cypress Sun]

21 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Also every time he took it more apart he commented on all the gack! It didn't look all rusty or crudded up to me. While I understand his liability issues, I think he should have explained the slam fire design to the owner before putting mega hours into it. 

Wonder how often the OBD issue occurs, can't say I've ever heard of a cowboy blowing one up like that! Seems if it was an issue we'd know about it and there'd be a rule against slam firing.

 

I had a OBD with a 97 during a Florida State Championship in St Augustine. It destroyed the gun, scared the hell out of the TO and ended any chance for a win in category. The shell retaining "flag" was operational, no safety devices were disabled and the gun was in great shape prior to the OBD.

 

On that particular stage, splashback from our stage and the stage to the right of us was pretty bad also. I had shot two of the four targets and was on the third when it happened. The shell was partly in the chamber and part out when it went off. The reason I know this is because the target went down but the gun was destroyed and couldn't shoot the rest. 

 

The only thing that I can figure out is that a piece of splashback from the shotgun targets that I was shooting at landed just perfectly where the firing pin protrudes from the bolt and set the shell off as it was going into the chamber.

 

There are two screws on the 97 that if re-installed reversed, will cause the "flag" to not work. I don't remember which two screws but I remember reading about it and seeing if I could duplicate it and did....then I put it back the way it was supposed to be. If the flag doesn't work, there is a chance that an OBD can be caused by the right extractor impacting the shell's primer upon closing if the shell is not all the way into the port. I've seen that one happen twice although that wasn't what happened in my instance.

 

No one was injured during my OBD. I had a minor cut on the forehead but that could have been from target splatter and it was no big deal. Destroying my favorite 97 was the big deal. Oh well.

[Blackwater 53393]

Thanks for sharing your experience, CS!!  There are a lot of folks who haven’t seen this or seen the results of it happening.

 

I try to remind folks that it can happen and that checking the operation of the gun is essential for everyone’s safety.

[Outlaw Gambler]

The 2 screws are one of the two magazine plug lock screws on a take down and the cartridge guide stop screw. They both are interchangeable. However, the stop screw has a non-threaded end and is longer than the plug lock screw. When the plug lock screw is installed in the stop screw hole and tightened it does not protrude far enough to contact the cartridge guide when the action is worked. The result is the loaded shell does not enter the chamber straight and the primer is at a perfect angle for the edge of the bolt to hit it when the action is attempted to be closed.

So, if you are reassembling a 97 please closely examine the screws and ensure they are the correct one(s) for the Mag plug and cartridge guide. No threads on end is wrong screw for cartridge guide hole.

[Pat Riot]

So, model 12 it is then?…

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Outlaw Gambler said:

The 2 screws are one of the two magazine plug lock screws on a take down and the cartridge guide stop screw. They both are interchangeable. However, the stop screw has a non-threaded end and is longer than the plug lock screw. When the plug lock screw is installed in the stop screw hole and tightened it does not protrude far enough to contact the cartridge guide when the action is worked. The result is the loaded shell does not enter the chamber straight and the primer is at a perfect angle for the edge of the bolt to hit it when the action is attempted to be closed.

So, if you are reassembling a 97 please closely examine the screws and ensure they are the correct one(s) for the Mag plug and cartridge guide. No threads on end is wrong screw for cartridge guide hole.

 

Thanks OG. I thought it was those two but I wasn't sure.

 

 

[Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103]

3 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

*snip* and boldfaced emphasis added:

I If the flag doesn't work, there is a chance that an OBD can be caused by the right extractor impacting the shell's primer upon closing if the shell is not all the way into the port. I've seen that one happen twice although that wasn't what happened in my instance.

 

 

A dear friend talked me into letting his buddy reblue my 97.

(Not the first mistake I ever made, should have left it in that gorgeous brown!)

The rebluing amateur dunked the entire bolt into the bluing tank without disassembling it first.

Probably thought he got all the bluing salts washed out.

Didn't.

There's a recess that holds a spring that operates the right hand extractor.

Salts ate it up, the extractor collapsed inward -- flag worked fine, but the spring's disintegration allowed the extractor to flop inward.

I read Cypress Sun's mention of "the right extractor impacting the shell's primer" and that ran cold water right down the middle of my spine.

(Mine not go boom. Mine fixed now)

(File that one under "Y" for YIKES!)

Edited October 19 by Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103