Is there a requirement that chaplains be non-combatant?

[Alpo]

In Heinlein's book STARSHIP TROOPERS everybody jumps and everybody fights. That included the chaplain. Before a jump people would come and get last rights if they felt they needed them or whatever else they needed words of comfort or whatever, then they go back in line and the chaplain they go get in line and they would all jump.

 

In one of Griffin's books they are in Uruguay. And this bunch of military police are about to go into battle. And this little guy comes over. Wearing camouflage, wearing web gear. And a couple of the big burly guys pick him up and put him on the platform so he can be seen, and he blesses them and ask God's help in their endeavor, and then the burly guys put him back down on the ground, and he goes over and picks up a rifle and gets in the truck.

 

Both of those are fiction. I understand that.

 

But it seems like every once in awhile it might come in handy to have a gun when the bad guys are coming over the hill. Even if you are a chaplain.

 

So is there a rule that says they can't do it? In the US military - obviously would not apply to the Uruguay military.

[El Chapo]

Chaplains are not combatants and do not carry weapons.

 

The answer to your question is that U.S. Army chaplains are prohibited by Army regulations from being armed.

 

The answer as a matter of the international law of war is that they would forfeit their non-combatant status if they armed themselves.

Edited September 16 by El Chapo

[Subdeacon Joe]

Some denominations forbid clergy from taking a human life.  Our former priest, Fr. Michael of blessed memory, was an Air Force chaplain.  In Viet Nam, during the Lunar New Year Festivities in our year 1968 the base he was at was in danger of being overrun.  His commander told him to pick up a rifle, he refused.  He did go to the mess hall and grabbed a large knife.  

 

If I recall correctly the international conventions of war specify that they are non-combatants.

[Rip Snorter]

Interesting thought, what about some of the militant Oriental, Asian, and Islamic religions which do not prohibit violence?  Want to mess with a Sikh Chaplain?

[El Chapo]

7 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Interesting thought, what about some of the militant Oriental, Asian, and Islamic religions which do not prohibit violence?  Want to mess with a Sikh Chaplain?

 

All of our branches of military, at least presently, forbid chaplains from being armed, regardless of religious affiliation.

[Rip Snorter]

1 minute ago, El Chapo said:

 

All of our branches of military, at least presently, forbid chaplains from being armed, regardless of religious affiliation.

Ah, but pretty sure a practicing Sikh must have a dagger.

[El Chapo]

Just now, Rip Snorter said:

Ah, but pretty sure a practicing Sikh must have a dagger.

 

A kirpan, yes.  I have actually been in the Sikh temple in Fresno for a wedding.  I don't believe their kirpans were sharpened.

[Alpo]

6 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Ah, but pretty sure a practicing Sikh must have a dagger.

 

Notice it says "there is no prescribed length or sharpness". To get around British anti-knife law they would carry a little bitty one that really couldn't be used as a weapon.

 

But I see that England has changed the law in regard to them.

 

[Rip Snorter]

Check their fighting arts.

[Irish Pat]

The late Arch Bishop Phillip Hannon of New Orleans was a chaplain with the 82 Airborne in WWII. one of his 

many stories is he was jeep at the Battle of the Bugle and the driver handed him a Thompson!  he told the driver he would not shoot it. the driver said well the Germans don’t know That! When they organized the New Orleans NFL team and decided to name them the”Saints” he reminded them most Saints are martyred and New Orleans Saints were martyrs for 50 years. During Katrina the 82nd sent him a helicopter and crew. he wrote a letter to the Pope defending the United States needed Nuclear weapons as a deterrent and that’s why he never made Cardinal 

[Irish Pat]

this is the book

[Subdeacon Joe]

Well, he wasn't a chaplain, but he was an Episcopal bishop. 

 

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Leonidas-Polk

 

 

 

Battle flag of Polk's Corps. 

 

 

[Chantry]

Might also depend on the religion of the "chaplain".

 

I wouldn't deny any person filling the role of "chaplain" the right to defend themselves in combat, BUT they lose the non-combatant protections afford to a "chaplain".

 

I know corpsmen in Pacific during WWII would sometimes carry a sidearm since the Japanese did not recognize the Red Cross or that corpsmen were considered non-combatants.  I seem to recall the same about some medics in European theaters doing the same thing.

 

*I use chaplain in the generic sense to refer to the people of any religion who serve in a comparable role in their military. 

[Pat Riot]

Navy Chaplains do not participate in battle / combat.

I asked our Chaplain what he did during General Quarters (Battle Stations).

He said “Pray”. 

[El Chapo]

3 hours ago, Chantry said:

Might also depend on the religion of the "chaplain".

 

I wouldn't deny any person filling the role of "chaplain" the right to defend themselves in combat, BUT they lose the non-combatant protections afford to a "chaplain".

 

I know corpsmen in Pacific during WWII would sometimes carry a sidearm since the Japanese did not recognize the Red Cross or that corpsmen were considered non-combatants.  I seem to recall the same about some medics in European theaters doing the same thing.

 

*I use chaplain in the generic sense to refer to the people of any religion who serve in a comparable role in their military. 

 

The regulations of all of our armed forces prohibit chaplains from being armed or using weapons.

 

Medics and corpsman do carry weapons although if they use them, they risk losing their non-combatant status.

 

Chaplains do not.  At least not at present, the google machine gives numerous examples of chaplains who were armed prior to the modern era.  There are even chaplains who have earned the Medal of Honor by saving lives in battle.  Certainly at least some of them gave up their non-combatant status to preserve human life in those scenarios.

[Trailrider #896]

It may be ippocraphul (sp?) but wasn't there a chaplain at Pearl Harbor who was manning an anti-aircraft gun? Supposedly, a sailor called out, "Say a prayer for us, Padre!" To which, the story goes, the chaplain called back, "Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!" A song was written with those title and words. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

59 minutes ago, Trailrider #896 said:

It may be ippocraphul (sp?) but wasn't there a chaplain at Pearl Harbor who was manning an anti-aircraft gun? Supposedly, a sailor called out, "Say a prayer for us, Padre!" To which, the story goes, the chaplain called back, "Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!" A song was written with those title and words. 

 

Not apocryphal at all.  Well, the part about him manning the guns is, but he did say those words. 

 

https://www.wideners.com/blog/praise-the-lord-and-pass-the-ammunition/

 

"

The 6′ 2″ former college lineman turned pastor wanted to lift one of the shells onto his shoulder. He realized that, as a chaplain, he was not permitted to fire a gun or take material part in a battle. So, he did the next best thing.

Some years later, Forgy would recall what happened next: “The boys were getting dog-tired. All I did was slap them on the backs and smilingly say, ‘Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.’ I guess I used un-chaplain-like language because afterward, on the well deck of our cruiser, I overheard a couple of boys say, ‘Chaplains can cuss like a bo’sun mate when they have to.'”

Lieutenants Forgy and Woodhead survived the attack on Pearl Harbor, as did the USS New Orleans. But it wasn’t until months later that Forgy found out his words had been turned into a popular ballad."

 

"

One officer on the USS New Orleans said that when the ship’s crewmen heard the song, they would kid Chaplain Forgy and tried to persuade him to set the record straight about who spoke those encouraging words. However, Forgy was unwilling to grab the credit. He reasoned that “the episode should remain a legend rather than be associated with a particular person.” 

Reporters interviewed the crew members on the New Orleans involved in the incident. Eventually leading to the Navy brass permitting the press to interview Chaplain Forgy. He gave several interviews, including one printed in Time magazine in 1943, “On Religion: Change of Tune.” "

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

17 hours ago, El Chapo said:

Chaplains are not combatants and do not carry weapons.

 

The answer to your question is that U.S. Army chaplains are prohibited by Army regulations from being armed.

 

The answer as a matter of the international law of war is that they would forfeit their non-combatant status if they armed themselves.

I helped an Army Chaplain on Okinawa get a Browning High Power,  a half dozen spare magazines, lessons on how to use them, a good shoulder holster,  and enough ammo to carry him over.  He had orders for 'Nam and explained his "need" to me.

 

He felt the Army was wrong and it was his duty to God and to his "flock" to defend them if the need should arise.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

17 hours ago, El Chapo said:

 

A kirpan, yes.  I have actually been in the Sikh temple in Fresno for a wedding.  I don't believe their kirpans were sharpened.

Wanna bet?

Edited September 16 by Forty Rod SASS 3935

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Kirpan's are shaving sharp....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Rye Miles #13621]

He’s not a chaplain but that wouldn’t have stopped this priest!

http://www.catholicfaithonthemove.com/catholic-faith-on-the-move/2018/2/23/patron-saint-of-handguns-st-gabriel-possenti

[Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103]

11 hours ago, Chantry said:

Might also depend on the religion of the "chaplain".

I wouldn't deny any person filling the role of "chaplain" the right to defend themselves in combat, BUT they lose the non-combatant protections afford to a "chaplain".

I know corpsmen in Pacific during WWII would sometimes carry a sidearm since the Japanese did not recognize the Red Cross or that corpsmen were considered non-combatants.  I seem to recall the same about some medics in European theaters doing the same thing.

*I use chaplain in the generic sense to refer to the people of any religion who serve in a comparable role in their military. 

Her name was Annie.

She lived down the hill from us and she liked her beer.

She'd been a nurse during the Second Disagreement, in the South Pacific.

She and her fellow nurses wore a .45 automatic as regularly as they wore their trousers.

They didn't wear Old Slabsides out of fear the Japs would come and get them -- "Their Boys" would have dragged themselves on bloody stubs to defend those nurses -- no, they wore John Browning's Democratic Laundromatic for a constant and ever present danger to themselves but especially to their injured patients.

Jungle rats.

Annie's eyes would change when she would talk about those toothy beasts, and how they tried to eat the wounded.

 

Edited September 17 by Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103

[Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103]

5 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

I helped an Army Chaplain on Okinawa get a Browning High Power,  a half dozen spare magazines, lessons on how to use them, a good shoulder holster,  and enough ammo to carry him over.  He had orders for 'Nam and explained his "need" to me.

He felt the Army was wrong and it was his duty to God and to his "flock" to defend them if the need should arise.

My kind of sky pilot!

[El Chapo]

17 hours ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Kirpan's are shaving sharp....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

Kirpans are not always sharp.  As I discussed earlier, I'm quite certain the ones I saw people wearing at the wedding I attended were not sharpened at all and were ceremonial only.  Historically in the Sikh religion they did serve an actual practical purpose as self defense weapons, but in the modern era, they do not.  There is no religious reason why they need to be sharpened, but there is also no prohibition in doing so.

[Subdeacon Joe]

17 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

He’s not a chaplain but that wouldn’t have stopped this priest!

http://www.catholicfaithonthemove.com/catholic-faith-on-the-move/2018/2/23/patron-saint-of-handguns-st-gabriel-possenti

 

Note that he didn't shoot any of the men.

[Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103]

9 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Note that he didn't shoot any of the men.

He came upon them, hard and uncompromising, with two hands full of Frontier Justice.

He gave them a direct order and then snap shot a lizard in two, indicating his willingness to keep his people safe.

He gave the sinners a chance to repent and to be forgiven ... but still ...

I'm willing to bet he'd have played a hell of a game of poker, methinks he'd be able to bluff with the best of 'em!

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I have never herd of or seen a Kirpan that was not razor sharp...

Not in any of the 32 Countries I have Been in...

 

Jabez Cowboy