SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 New issue today. 1897 will not go forward into battery unless I slam the butt on a shelf first. Normal chambering and ejection, but will not go forward without the assist. Any ideas where or what to look at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 Ok, how much of the action is not functioning? Does the forearm slide go forward? Does the carrier rise up? Does the bolt go forward? Does the problem occur when the gun is empty of all shells? A common problem could be the action slide hook screw (the large one that screws through the bolt from the right side of the ejection port and holds the action slide hook to the slide arm) has broken off. However, it's unlikely that slamming the butt down on an object would clear the problem - it would take replacement with a new screw to fix well. Does the "second" shell (which should be staying in the mag tube) come out far enough to jam the rise of the carrier (look at worn or dirty shell stops). More description of the problem will make long-distance troubleshooting easier. GJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 While the bolt is back over the hammer, slap down on the bolt. If it goes into battery after that, you may have a worn hammer. Try opening the action just a little and then cock the hammer fully and then cycle the action the rest of the way. If it cycles properly, replace the hammer. I bought an older Winchester a few years back for cheap that had the same problem. I fiddled with it for a couple of hours before I stumbled on the problem. I had to do a little fitting on a replacement hammer, but the ol’ shotgun works great now! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 23 Author Share Posted June 23 Using it for cowboy today. Empty works fine. Pull the trigger, bolt releases and functions normally. Single load a live round and the bolt will not move forward. Thanks for the ideas, I”ll look further tomorrow Too hot right now. 105 in the garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 23 Author Share Posted June 23 The problem occurs when the bolt is fully rearward, gun empty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 23 Author Share Posted June 23 Think I may have found the problem. The mag tube follower is not extending enough to push the shell rearward. Muzzle down, the round catches on the mag tube. Muzzle up it functions fine.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 23 Author Share Posted June 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 When was the last time you did a deep action cleaning? Have you checked ALL screws for tightness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Just had a pard do a deep clean on mine. First time in about five years. Taking him for supper this week as a thank you. It was getting a little stiff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 Two weeks ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 If the mag follower seems not to push shells hard enough to shove out the rounds, first clean and inspect the mag tube for dirt, fouling, rust, etc. Then check and perhaps replace the mag tube spring. My previous recommendation has been to trim off extra spring so that uncompressed spring is 4" longer than the mag tube. I'm now believing and switching my 97s to have more spring - about 6" extending. Just enough I can still load 6 rounds in the tube. Mag tube springs DO get weaker with age and use! good luck, GJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 8 hours ago, SHOOTIN FOX said: Two weeks ago. There's the sure-fire clue. Is this the first time you've used it since the 'deep cleaning' just two weeks ago? Did it work just fine before that 'deep cleaning' two weeks ago? If you answered "yes" to both questions, then the problem is user error, and there's nothing at all wrong with the gun -- except that it is not properly assembled. In simple terms, you reassembled something incorrectly during your cleaning procedure. Take it apart again and reassemble it again, carefully. And if you indeed answered "yes" to both questions, and you now take it apart and carefully reassemble it again, I'll bet a six-pack that doing so will cure the gun of its failure-to-feed troubles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 It worked two weeks ago after the cleaning. I suspect a weak follower spring as Garrison Joe indicated. Will do all the above to be sure. Thanks for all the suggestions. I will post the results.. Fox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 11 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: If the mag follower seems not to push shells hard enough to shove out the rounds, first clean and inspect the mag tube for dirt, fouling, rust, etc. Then check and perhaps replace the mag tube spring. My previous recommendation has been to trim off extra spring so that uncompressed spring is 4" longer than the mag tube. I'm now believing and switching my 97s to have more spring - about 6" extending. Just enough I can still load 6 rounds in the tube. Mag tube springs DO get weaker with age and use! good luck, GJ This ^ would be the most logical advice to start with. GJ give good info. ..........Widder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlaw Gambler Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Your 97 is a Chinese CB model and most came with a mag spring with the correct length for normal loading of 5 rounds in the mag tub. These springs are thicker resulting in more tension in the shorter length. To load 6 in the mag tube most springs were shortened by 4 or 5 coils. GJ has you on the correct track. However, buying a used Winchester spring is not the answer. I have a new IAC correct length spring that may solve your problem. I will pm you my email address and you can contact me if interested. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 OP, will it cycle correctly with 2 shells in the tube? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 2-6 in the tube, works fine. Single loading for cowboy is where it failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 1 hour ago, SHOOTIN FOX said: Single loading for cowboy is where it failed. Yep, really sounds like you don't have enough spring or a burr/fouling that is making that single-round-in-mag fail to pop out. Spring the likely reason. GJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 4 hours ago, SHOOTIN FOX said: Single loading for cowboy is where it failed. You are not clear in describing your problem. Single loading for cowboy is almost always done through the port. I do not know anyone that single loads by putting a round in the magazine. Single loading through the port it should not make any difference about the mag spring. I know people who exclusively load one at a time through the port who do not even have the shell guides in the gun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 I have been loading through the port. The round drop to the bottom of the carrier and the nose enters the mag tube opening. This catches the round on the upper edge of the mag tube and does not allow the carrier to rise. The follower is slightly recessed in the mag tube. Hope that clears it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 47 minutes ago, SHOOTIN FOX said: I have been loading through the port. The round drop to the bottom of the carrier and the nose enters the mag tube opening. This catches the round on the upper edge of the mag tube and does not allow the carrier to rise. The follower is slightly recessed in the mag tube. Hope that clears it up. Contact Outlaw Gambler for a new magazine spring. Clean and lube the inside of the magazine tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 1 hour ago, SHOOTIN FOX said: The follower is slightly recessed in the mag tube. Hope that clears it up. All my several 97 followers have enough nose length to stick out into the frame just past flush. This prevents any catching of the single-round dropped in the action. You may not need a spring - especially if your current spring pushes the follower to the point where the first ridge on the follower runs into the ring inside the back end of the mag tube! I'd look for a follower with more length between the face that contacts the mag-tube round and the first ring on the follower body - a longer "nose" in other words. Don't want a cavity there to catch that dropped-in round. good luck, GJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlaw Gambler Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 "1897 will not go forward into battery unless I slam the butt on a shelf first. Normal chambering and ejection, but will not go forward without the assist. Any ideas where or what to look at?" BEFORE I GO ANY FURTHER, SLAMMING THE BUTT ON ANYTHING DOES NOT FIX A PROBLEM! It will split and or crack the stock. This is a new & different problem than described in the original post. What is the length from front of follower to the ring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 Dumb question I know, but is the mag tube fully inserted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rough 'N Ready Rob Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 1 hour ago, Outlaw Gambler said: "1897 will not go forward into battery unless I slam the butt on a shelf first. Normal chambering and ejection, but will not go forward without the assist. Any ideas where or what to look at?" BEFORE I GO ANY FURTHER, SLAMMING THE BUTT ON ANYTHING DOES NOT FIX A PROBLEM! It will split and or crack the stock. This is a new & different problem than described in the original post. What is the length from front of follower to the ring? What Outlaw and Sedalia say, I see a hole in that follower that I have never seen on a real 97, maybe the Chinchesters do, or it may be the wrong follower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 This question has mutated. The original post makes it sound like when the action is pumped to the rear it locks and you cannot push the pump back forward. Then the story changes too no it works fine unless you put a round in the port. Now we know there is NOT a mechanical issue with the action. The problem is the follower not coming far enough forward. This is not rocket science. With the action closed stick your finger in the mag opening and push the follower back and forth. Is it sticking? If so you need to find out where and why it is sticking. Is the follower correct? Did you mix it up with something else? From the photo this is a solid frame ChiCom model. Is the magazine tube screwed in CORRECTLY? The threads on the tube are very fine. You have to be looking in the screw hole as you screw in the tube to make sure the hole is properly aligned. One turn too far in or one turn too far out and if you force the screw you can dent the tube or put the follower in a bind. It does not take much spring pressure to make the follower fully extend into the frame opening. If you want to test it cheap just drop an empty shell into the mag tube behind the spring. This will give it plenty of tension for a test and if you are only shooting CAS and have no need to fully load the magazine a cheap fix. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 (edited) The Chinese made followers are not "holed" either. Probably a different follower than what w3as factory was installed, perhaps in hopes of the mag tube capacity being increased by that. GJ PS correction - I pulled out all my Chinese 97s. All have a solid face on the follower (versions 01, 06, 09) EXCEPT for a CB model (the last version made). That one does have a central hole in the face of the follower. But importantly, all 4 guns I checked have the follower face flush to the frame opening, or slightly proud of the opening. Getting your follower to that same condition will likely be the solution to your jamming when dropping a round in the action with the muzzle below horizontal. GJ Edited June 26 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 OP take the follower out and get a couple of good clear photos of it so we can see what you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 Will do. Sorry if the story seems to have changed. Not my intention. I will disassemble, clean reassemble and post pics. I think based on all the discussion is the spring and follower are the culprit. If the round was caught under the mag tube lip, slamming the butt would cause it to move rearward freeing the jam. Shooting at speed, I did not look at the round on the carrier. ( My fault) noticed it at home diagnosing the problem. More to come. Thanks again for the comments and advise. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 30 Author Share Posted June 30 Looked over the shotgun again. Was able to screw the mag tube in one more full turn. The follower is now just touching the shell lock lever. Word of caution. The mag tube screw fit in both positions. See photos for comparison. Thanks for all the advice. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Place a small scratch around right side of the mag tube that is just flush with the frame forward surface. Use a sharp pointed awl or similar tool. Then next time, you screw the tube in until the scratch meets the frame. Glad you found the problem. GJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTIN FOX Posted June 30 Author Share Posted June 30 Thanks again. Knowing where to look helps. Good idea with the marking. I found it odd that the screw fit in both positions. Now I know what to watch for. Fox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 (edited) 5 hours ago, SHOOTIN FOX said: I found it odd that the screw fit in both positions Comes about from the hole in the tube being machined sloppy and lots larger than the tip of the lock screw on the mag tube. Mine have same condition - I can install the screw when the tube is one rotation short of all the way in. So, I screw in the tube as far as possible then back out the tube part of a turn until the holes in tube and frame line up, and screw in the tube lock screw. And, all my barrels and frames were factory marked with a sharp chisel to show proper tube alignment - they are just hard to see. good luck, GJ Edited July 1 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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