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I stopped in a local gun store today and noticed a BIG shell in the window.  You know the type, about three feet long and shaped sort of like a monster .30-06.

 

I looked at the base and all I saw was a bunch of gibberish, "Dummy Round", and ".50".  I asked the guy at the counter if he knew what would fire a shell of that size and what caliber it was.  Not surprising, the guy had no idea.  A customer had given it to the shop.

 

Now, for the questions:

How are those big shells classified for purposes of logistics?  i.e.  You've got 8+ different 40mm shells - BOFORS, PAK 40, Grenade, etc.  When talking about Sherman tanks, Tiger tanks, etc. you talk about it using a 76mm, 75mm, or 88mm, but what is the actual designation?  For small arms you have the 7mm Mauser, 7mm Rem. Mag., 7mm Weatherby, etc.  For the big guns when you get a crate or palate of "76mm" how do you know it's the "76mm" you need for your gun?  

 

I have an empty shell casing I was told is from a "105".  What is its official designation?

 

I think it would be neat to have a couple of those dummy rounds on display in my reloading room.  Mainly a 75mm used by a Sherman tank, a 75mm used by a Panzer IV, and a German 88mm used by a Tiger tank and anti-tank gun.  Just for comparison purposes.  Where the heck would you find such a thing?

 

Does anybody have a link to a website that shows the dimensions of the big shells?

 

I thought of a bunch of other questions while driving home from the gun store, but I've forgotten most of them now.

 

Thanks,

 

Angus

 

 

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neither tank nor artillery. If it was marked 50 it’s a 50 caliber naval shell, 3”.

Navy caliber nomenclature is different.
We’ve been trying to get a MK22 gun for display at the VFW, without success.

 

 

3F55A329-81BA-4A71-A69E-636DC779153C.jpeg

 

 

B19F9474-0ED6-4688-AE8A-B05796AA1306.webp

Edited by Utah Bob #35998
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Wow!  Even more confusing.  The link about 105's might be more helpful if I could make out the diagrams showing the base of the shells.  Otherwise, it seems like I need to know the type of projectile to know what to call the shell.  I still don't understand the caliber designations.

 

How about this:  The M4 Sherman is armed with a 75mm gun.  75mm what?

                                 The Panzer IV Auf G is armed with a 75mm/L70 gun.  I believe the "L70" references the length of the barrel.  The shell is a 75mm what?

                                 The Tiger tank is armed with an 88mm gun.  The shell is called an 88mm what?  It fits in both the Tiger and the 88mm anti-aircraft gun, but the dimensions are the same.  But the caliber is called 88mm ____________?

                                

Is there only one 105mm round chambered in all 105mm guns?  How do I know I've got the right 105mm shell for my gun?

 

If I show someone a cannon or artillery shell how can they tell me it's a XXmm shell fired out of a xxxxxxx tank?

 

And don't get me started on the British 2 pdr or 6 pdr shells.  :D

 

Bob, FWIW the shell was marked ".50" not "50".  It looked similar to the one pictured, except the case was silver (aluminum?), the neck seemed longer, and the projectile was longer (and red).  It may have been 3" diameter.  I didn't measure it.  Geez, new question, How does a 3" shell become a "50 Caliber"?  Salt water on the brain?

 

Meanwhile, thanks for the info.  It's fascinating, even if I don't understand it all.

 

Angus

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12 hours ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

Wow!  Even more confusing.  The link about 105's might be more helpful if I could make out the diagrams showing the base of the shells.  Otherwise, it seems like I need to know the type of projectile to know what to call the shell.  I still don't understand the caliber designations.

 

How about this:  The M4 Sherman is armed with a 75mm gun.  75mm what?

                                 The Panzer IV Auf G is armed with a 75mm/L70 gun.  I believe the "L70" references the length of the barrel.  The shell is a 75mm what?

                                 The Tiger tank is armed with an 88mm gun.  The shell is called an 88mm what?  It fits in both the Tiger and the 88mm anti-aircraft gun, but the dimensions are the same.  But the caliber is called 88mm ____________?

                                

Is there only one 105mm round chambered in all 105mm guns?  How do I know I've got the right 105mm shell for my gun?

 

If I show someone a cannon or artillery shell how can they tell me it's a XXmm shell fired out of a xxxxxxx tank?

 

And don't get me started on the British 2 pdr or 6 pdr shells.  :D

 

Bob, FWIW the shell was marked ".50" not "50".  It looked similar to the one pictured, except the case was silver (aluminum?), the neck seemed longer, and the projectile was longer (and red).  It may have been 3" diameter.  I didn't measure it.  Geez, new question, How does a 3" shell become a "50 Caliber"?  Salt water on the brain?

 

Meanwhile, thanks for the info.  It's fascinating, even if I don't understand it all.

 

Angus

The case was aluminum because it’s a training round. Naval calibers are determined by a combination of the bore diameter, in this case 3”, and the length of the barrel. This 3” gun had a 150” barrel. 150” is 50 times the diameter of the bore. Therefore it’s a 50 caliber.

Yeah, I know. :wacko::blink:

It’s the navy.

Edited by Utah Bob #35998
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53 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

The case was aluminum because it’s a training round. Naval calibers are determined buoy a combination of the bore diameter, in this case 3”, and the length of the barrel. This 3” gun had a 150” barrel. 150” is 50 times the diameter of the bore. Therefore it’s a 50 caliber.

Yeah, I know. :wacko::blink:

It’s the navy.

 

If my little grey cells are working properly, I vaguely recall that the traditional nomenclature for field artillery also expressed barrel length in calibers.

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1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

If my little grey cells are working properly, I vaguely recall that the traditional nomenclature for field artillery also expressed barrel length in calibers.

I never heard that but it could have been before my time.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

The case was aluminum because it’s a training round. Naval calibers are determined buoy a combination of the bore diameter, in this case 3”, and the length of the barrel. This 3” gun had a 150” barrel. 150” is 50 times the diameter of the bore. Therefore it’s a 50 caliber.

Yeah, I know. :wacko::blink:

It’s the navy.

 

Fruedian Slip @Utah Bob #35998 :) 

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I once went off on a tangent to read about 8” round since both the Army and Navy had 8” guns, did they perchance use the same shells?  No, the Navy had shells that were about 350# while the Army’s shells were just over 200#.

 

I suppose the difference is because the Navy had hoists and lifts while the Army only had big guys from South Philly.  ))))

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5 hours ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

I never heard that but it could have been before my time.

 

 

It might have just been the authors, but I've seen it used in translations of artillery manuals from the XVII and XVIII centuries.

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75mm blank re-purposed :D

4C693981-26B7-41C8-8CE1-ED780E60424D.jpeg

514002BB-FF2B-4983-AC2D-8332EA1BE26F.jpeg

4AA28872-847D-4B3C-82A2-4EDCC542D2B1.jpeg

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That was the version my Dad taught me when I was a kid, and he had been in the Army reserve field artillery prior to WWII. During the war, although technically assigned as a forward observer in the 232nd Inf. Rgmt, the CG of the 42nd Inf. (Rainbow) Division found out he was a lawyer, and knew something about the Manual for Courts Martial, and hauled him up to division Hqtrs to try cases. Since Dad was a captain and there was already LTC as division JAG, officially Dad was division awards officer, too.  Was in the JAG reserve after the War and retired as an O-5 in 1959.  Nowadays, the song is "When the Army Goes Rolling Along!"  As I was Air Force, I don't know the words to the new version.  

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15 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

The case was aluminum because it’s a training round. Naval calibers are determined by a combination of the bore diameter, in this case 3”, and the length of the barrel. This 3” gun had a 150” barrel. 150” is 50 times the diameter of the bore. Therefore it’s a 50 caliber.

Yeah, I know. :wacko::blink:

It’s the navy.

 

So, same gun with a 75" barrel makes the same round a 25 caliber?  That's not confusing at all.  :wacko:  I think the Germans would have called it a 3" L/50.  Well, they would have used metrics.  :D

 

14 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Let's get you REALLY confused!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Artillery_by_caliber

 

 

You were asking about the 75?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:75_mm_artillery

 

 

 

 

Lots of good info in there.  Actually a bit of an information overload.  I did learn that a German 75 in a Pak 40 anti-tank gun, Panzer IV with a KwK 37 L/24 gun, and a Panzer IV with a KwK 40 L/48 gun all use different ammo.  (75x714mmR, 75x243mmR and 75x495mmR respectively)

 

The German 8.8cm KwK 36 L/56 gun mounted in the Tiger I tank and the 88mm Flak guns use the same 88x571mmR round.  But, the Tiger II and the 88mm Pak 43 use a larger 88x822mmR round.

 

Fascinating information.  At least to me.  I have no real use for it, but it's fascinating, none the less.

 

For those following along in my madness, I believe the "R" in the caliber designation is the same as in small arms, meaning a Rimmed cartridge.  The "L/___" indicates the length of the barrel.  The caliber is multiplied by the "L/___" to determine the length.  i.e.  75mm L/24 is 75mmx24= 1800mm or 1.8 meter barrel.  88 L/56  88mmx56=4928mm  or ~4.9 meter barrel.

 

Thanks again.

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19 hours ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

> snip <

I have an empty shell casing I was told is from a "105".  What is its official designation?

> snip <

I don't know what else you would call them other than 105's ... That is 105mm ... (4 inches) ...

With 105s you assemble them as you fire them. 

You put as many powder bags in the case as required and set the projectile in the case. The fuse screws into the nose of the projectile (there are different types of fuses and some of those fuses also have adjustments (like proximity etc ...). 

One (single) person shoves the assembled round into the breech ... 

 

On six inchers ... (155s ... as in 155mm) ...  the rounds (projectile and fuse) are so heavy that two people hold one on a tray while someone else pushes it in with a ram.

There is no case ... you push the projectile (w/ fuse)  in ... throw in as many bags of power as FDC asked for and shut the door. A primered case/lantren thingy  is screwed into the closed door and when "yet another person" pulls the cord ... off it goes. When the door is opened the guy w/ the ram (who has a bucket of water next to him) swabs the chamber to make sure nothing is burning so that w/ you put the next round and powder bags they don't leave on their own schedule. 

Edited by Patagonia Pete
edit: field artillery w/ wheels and tires ...
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37 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

six inchers ... (155s ... as in 155mm) ...  the rounds (projectile and fuse) are so heavy that two people hold one on a tray while someone else pushes it in with a ram.

There is no case ... you push the projectile (w/ fuse)  in ... throw in as many bags of power as FDC asked for and shut the door. A primered case/lantren thingy  is screwed into the closed door and when "yet another person" pulls the cord ... off it goes. When the door is opened the guy w/ the ram (who has a bucket of water next to him) swabs the chamber to make sure nothing is burning so that w/ you put the next round and powder bags they don't leave on their own schedule. 

 

What is amazing is how little artillery drill has changed in hundreds of years.  

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1 hour ago, Patagonia Pete said:

I don't know what else you would call them other than 105's ... That is 105mm ... (4 inches) ...

With 105s you assemble them as you fire them. 

You put as many powder bags in the case as required and set the projectile in the case. The fuse screws into the nose of the projectile (there are different types of fuses and some of those fuses also have adjustments (like proximity etc ...). 

One (single) person shoves the assembled round into the breech ... 

 

On six inchers ... (155s ... as in 155mm) ...  the rounds (projectile and fuse) are so heavy that two people hold one on a tray while someone else pushes it in with a ram.

There is no case ... you push the projectile (w/ fuse)  in ... throw in as many bags of power as FDC asked for and shut the door. A primered case/lantren thingy  is screwed into the closed door and when "yet another person" pulls the cord ... off it goes. When the door is opened the guy w/ the ram (who has a bucket of water next to him) swabs the chamber to make sure nothing is burning so that w/ you put the next round and powder bags they don't leave on their own schedule. 

  


 

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and just to really do your head in there is ammunition that is declared a different calibre to avoid confusion.

 

Take the M40 recoilless rifle for example

 

The bore was commonly described as being 106 mm caliber but is in fact 105 mm; the 106 mm designation was intended to prevent confusion with incompatible 105 mm ammunition from the failed M27.

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I was in armor enlisted before aviation.  120mm for our tank guns and they had the case that burns up and just leaves the cap, great for an ashtray.  The training sabot pedals also fall off on the range and are cool to pick up.  Also has high explosive round and proximity round.  

 

now in the real world these rounds are depleted uranium….so that was part of the sickness in the gulf war.  Our tanks shoot a tank with a sabot, pop the turret, then we climbed all over the tank and uranium residue to look at it and for photos.

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9 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

One of the Navy's common guns were 5" 38's, primary armerment of DE's and DD's and secondary on CC's and BB's, and on some CV's and CVE's.

 

The USS Semmes, DDG 18 (a guided missile destroyer) had 5" 54s aboard during the summer of 1973.

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6 hours ago, Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372 said:

Good days.

My VFW post.

5AA0988C-01CE-4278-8F61-06942C59A9AB.jpeg

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