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1858 Remington Fouling


Brooklyn Slim

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Love the 1858 Remmy, and have a SS Pietta, with a few extra C&B cylinders.  When I swap cylinders usually can't finish shooting the second cylinder because the cylinder binds up from fouling.  Frustrating!  I lube well with various lubes without much success.

 

Then I watched a youtube where a gent fired off 5 or six cylinders in a row with no apparent problems.  After a few searches I came across a gent who filed grooves around the cylinder pin similar to the grooves on the 1860 Colt C&B.  Claimed the grooves allowed the lube migrate around the cylinder pin, keeping the fowling from binding the cylinder.

 

Was wondering if anyone here tried this and whether they had improved function and longer shooting times.  

 

Appreciate any advice and sharing of experiences.

 

Brooklyn Slim

 

 

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I recommend you first oil/grease up your cylinder pin, with a non-petroleum based oil/grease, and see if that helps any.

I would also recommend you purchase another Remington cylinder pin, and have a back up, just in case. I wish I had done that, so I could have sort of practiced on it, or just had another one handy.

 

Do no file too deep, or too many cuts. Obviously, use a thin file....some call it a needle file.

Also, obviously, secure the cylinder pin in a vise so you can file on it.

Okay...before you remove the cylinder pin and the cylinder, mark the cylinder pin at the front of the cylinder.  I just used a mechanical pencil, to leave just enough mark on the pin to see it when I removed it. Some may use a sort of whiteout marker.  Whatever works. 

Remove the cylinder pin, and note the mark. I put a piece of tape on the cylinder pin, at the mark, so it would be plain and easy to see, before I started to file.

 

I will call the cylinder pin, "front" for the end of the pin closer to the barrel, and "back" for the cylinder pin that is closer to the hammer.

From the mark on the "front" of the cylinder pin, move back toward the center of the pin, maybe 1/4 inch or less.

From the "back" of the pin, move forward toward the center of the pin.

IMPORTANT: You want all your cuts to be out of sight, when you put your cylinder pin, and cylinder back on the revolver. No cuts should show. The cylinder should "hide" the cuts.  

Only make your cuts between these marks. Not too deep. The groves on an arbor (that is what Colt calls the cylinder pin) on a Colt cap & ball, are not deep.  The grooves on the Colt clone arbor will be wider, since they are machined out, or seem to be, but are not deep.

Also, use some non-petroleum based oil/grease, on the cylinder pin, and that will also help reduce fowling.

Petroleum based oil, or grease, really gums up the works of a blackpowder firearm. When I first started muzzleloading, in 1965, that was not generally known.

The grooves, and the grease, helped a lot, in the fowling issue, but seems like it is just the design of the reproduction Remington's that facilitate fowling, and causing a person to remove the cylinder to wipe off the cylinder pin, pretty often. I am not sure, but I have read, or was told, that the original New Model Remington's were made a little differently than the newly made repos, so the originals fowled somewhat less.  Perhaps the barrel design, near the cylinder, was slightly different. I can't remember. I don't have an original Remington to compare my repo to.

Anyway...this filing of the cylinder pin, and the use of the non-petroleum based oil/grease, on the pin, seems to help a lot, in my experience, anyway.

Before, it would start to fowl, and get difficult to cock the hammer, after the second cylinder was shot. I used a lot of Navy words, over that, let me tell you.

I can now get six or eight, sometimes more, cylinders shot, before I have to pull the cylinder, and wipe off the pin.

I also re-grease the pin, with the non-petroleum based oil/grease, before I reassemble the components.

 

Other Pards may have a different method, and different personal experiences, doing this. Certainly mine is not the only way, or perhaps even the best way.

Just A way.

I did mine before the internet, and youtube, were even a gleam in anyone's eye. I just noticed the grooves in my Colt repos, and noted that they fowled a whole lot less than my Remington New Model (erroneously called the "model 1858"), and thus I just tried it, and it seemed to help a lot.

I also think that one reason the Colt's fowled less, was the arbor on the Colt is a lot bigger/thicker, than the thin Remington cylinder pin. So, perhaps the grooves are not the only reason the Colt's seems to fowl less. 

 

I guess I should now watch the YouTube version, to see how I should have done it.

 

W.K.

 

 

 

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Thanks for taking the time to share your experience.  

 

Sounds like the modification works well.   If I can get through 6 cylinders w/o cleaning, I'll be very happy.  Good advice on getting a backup cylinder pin,  will order one tomorrow.

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I do not own a 58 Remington.  Filing grooves in the base pin scares me.

 

Before filing grooves, try greasing the base pin and the cylinder faces with Mobil 1 red grease when you swap cylinders. Shouldn't take a lot.  See how many cylinder changes you can make using that lube.

 

Mobil 1 plays well with black powder fouling, and a one pound can costs about $9 at Auto Zone or Walmart.

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I've shot 58 Remies for 15 years. No grooves in the base pin. I did put the pin in a drill chuck and spin it and used 600 grit sandpaper to smooth it out. I make sure the clearance between the cylinder face and the barrel is around 10 or 11 thousands. I don't use any petroleum products except to oil the hammer and the trigger. I use Bore Butter. It's made for black powder lubing. I use it in the barrel, the cylinder pin and a little is pushed into the cylinder pin hole. I also use wonder wads soaked in 50-50 bees wax and crisco. They also lube the barrel and the cylinder pin as I use the pistol. I can shoot 6 stages and the cylinder spins like it did when I started.

Ike

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When I was shooting 58s, all of mine had a flat milled into the bottom of the pin to hold grease. After every 2 stages I cleaned the arbor hole in the cylinder with a brush soaked with Ballistol. Wiped off all the old grease and replaced it with fresh. Being sure to fill the groove in the pin with grease. 

 

I have a pair of 75 Outlaws and have to do the same thing to them when shooting BP or subs.

 

I only use two lubes on all the firearms I shoot BP or subs in. Ballistol and Mobil 1 general purpose grease. Neither one has ever let me down.

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I can shoot a 6 stage match without re-lubing or any binding in my 58 Remmie.  ( I Do Not use Mobile 1 grease; that is for my smokeless revolver cylinder pins only!)

Like Irish Ike above, I use Bore Butter on the cylinder pin.  Put some in the cylinder pin hole as well and on the cylinder notches (the anterior end of the cylinder which engages the hand; NOT the bolt notches).  Use wonder wads (or other wads) coated with Bore Butter over the powder charge as well.  Try this before doing any filing on the cylinder pin, or any other firearm part...

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1 hour ago, Sacramento Johnson #6873 said:

I use Bore Butter on the cylinder pin.  

And on a low humidity day I spit on the front of the cylinder at the unloading table, spin it and its ready to reload.  Note I am not suggesting the old buffalo hunter practice of urinating to remove black powder fouling.

 

Fordyce

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18 hours ago, Brooklyn Slim said:

Love the 1858 Remmy, and have a SS Pietta, with a few extra C&B cylinders.  When I swap cylinders usually can't finish shooting the second cylinder because the cylinder binds up from fouling.  Frustrating!  I lube well with various lubes without much success.

 

Then I watched a youtube where a gent fired off 5 or six cylinders in a row with no apparent problems.  After a few searches I came across a gent who filed grooves around the cylinder pin similar to the grooves on the 1860 Colt C&B.  Claimed the grooves allowed the lube migrate around the cylinder pin, keeping the fowling from binding the cylinder.

 

Was wondering if anyone here tried this and whether they had improved function and longer shooting times.  

 

Appreciate any advice and sharing of experiences.

 

Brooklyn Slim

 

 

 

You've hit on a difficulty that was noted by soldiers during the American Civil War.  The Remington revolvers were subject to more fouling than other models.

Having shot with Remingtons for a number of years in CAS, I found it quite easy to simply pop the cylinder out, after a stage, wipe the breech face, cylinder face, and the pin, and reload.  Just a quick wipe is enough and you're good to go.

I still do that Ruger Old Army revolvers, whether they need it or not.

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This is what I would like to be able to do.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kqEgijuCu4

 

Local range does falling steel shoots, with as many as 30 knockdown steel targets.  I don't compete any more, but it is a fun way to shoot with Remington revolvers, if I can love the fouling problem.

 

Will try Bore Butter before attempting to modify the cylinder pin.

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1 hour ago, McCandless said:

 

You've hit on a difficulty that was noted by soldiers during the American Civil War.  The Remington revolvers were subject to more fouling than other models.

Having shot with Remingtons for a number of years in CAS, I found it quite easy to simply pop the cylinder out, after a stage, wipe the breech face, cylinder face, and the pin, and reload.  Just a quick wipe is enough and you're good to go.

 

 

I keep a damp rag, in a Ziploc bag, handy for that exact reason when I am shooting my 58's.  Never had an issue.

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I’ve got a pair of Remmy NMs and mine are like @Sedalia Dave the pins on both have that notch cut out.  When I clean them I’ll grease the cylinder pin hole then push the cylinder through a couple of times to spread the grease.  Then I look at the pin and if it needs a little more grease I’ll add it to the pin.  I’ve run 5 stages and haven’t had any binding.  At home I use Gun Butter (I like the syringe, less messy) if I need it I have Bore Butter in my box at the shoot.

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1 hour ago, PaleAleRider said:

Check out Goon's Guns in GA.  He worked on my 58's and they run great!

 

Sent mine there also and I’ll second it.  They run as good as he promised they would.  

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I have to agree with Irish Ike and Sacramento Johnson I slap some bore butter on everything that makes contact or moves and rarely have an issue shooting 6 stages with fouling. I do wipe down the cylinders about every other stage though. Years ago I polished the cylinder pins with some emery cloth. just enough to take the bluing off  and feel smooth to the touch. Before you go grinding on them you might want to have a couple spares on hand if you go that route

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Went to the local range this PM.

 

Loaded 5 C&B cylinders with 2F BP, Cabelas lubed felt wad on the powder, seated a ball, then a wax wad to close the cylinder.  Loaded 6 chambers.

 

Liberally lubed the cylinder pin with Bore Butter, lubed the cylinder hole, lubed the front and rear of the cylinder, ran a wad with Bore Butter Down the barrel, several times.  

 

My goal was to shoot 5 cylinders (30 shots total) in a row.  Was 10 yards from a 3 gun style cardboard target with a 6 inch "shoot n see" pasted.

 

First cylinder was OK, all 6 shots in the black with 2 near the center.  By the time I shot the 5th cylinder, I had no idea where the balls went.  Completely missed the 3 gun target, which is a good size piece of cardboard.

 

No binding noticed, but the cylinder pin was very hot, almost too hot to touch.

 

Bore Butter worked for the binding problem, but not so for barrel fouling.

 

When I finished everything, including me,  was covered with fouled bore butter. What a mess, but what fun!

 

Anything else I could do to maintain accuracy?

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Lube over the ball.  I use 50/50 beeswax/Crisco.  They run all day.

 

Or you could pull a wet Boresnake through the barrel when you swap cylinders.  Either should work.

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24 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Read this  Preventing chain firing

 

All that extra grease you are putting over the balls just makes a mess and is more likely to cause problems than actually fixing anything.


You know I love ya man, but I have never used wads between powder and ball, always used a smear (not a plug) of beeswax / crisco over the balls, and have not had a chain fire in 20 years of shooting cap guns.  No mess, no leakage before shooting.  I spread a chamois on the table load my revolvers on that, wipe my fingers on the chamois when finished.  Easy peasy.  If I look at the unfired chambers while shooting during practice, there is still lube in the unfired chambers.  I really don’t care what any other shooter does, just saying the linked article does not match my experience.

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I’m a fan and adherent of the J-bar school. 
 

Early on in my C&B career I used Bore Butter over my cylinder loads. On a summer day with a warm (not hot) gun, I found Bore Butter running down the frame and my hand. Messy. J-bar’s recipe of crisco and beeswax solved all my problems. Stable across a wide range of temps. Make the stuff beforehand and cut into chunks stored in a container. As easy to load as fiber wads and lubricates better in my experience. 

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2 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:


You know I love ya man, but I have never used wads between powder and ball, always used a smear (not a plug) of beeswax / crisco over the balls, and have not had a chain fire in 20 years of shooting cap guns.  No mess, no leakage before shooting.  I spread a chamois on the table load my revolvers on that, wipe my fingers on the chamois when finished.  Easy peasy.  If I look at the unfired chambers while shooting during practice, there is still lube in the unfired chambers.  I really don’t care what any other shooter does, just saying the linked article does not match my experience.

 

Agreed, a smear of the right lube works wonders and doesn't create a mess. A plug of most others just makes a mess.

 

Personally I don't use wads over or under the ball. When I load I only put lube over the first chamber I am firing.

I use a 20 grain spout and this is just enough powder to touch the bottom of the ball. I have learned from measuring the capacity of the chamber in various C&B pistols with the ball seated as far as the ram is capable of that there is quite a variance in how much powder is required to ensure the ball touches the powder when seated. 

 

What I was taught by a couple of long time C&B shooters is to ensure that when a ball is seated that a good lead ring shaved off every time. I do this by using a .460 round ball that has no casting imperfections. I inspect every one and cull all that have imperfections. While inspecting I take a sharpie and mark the sprue flat to make it easier to find when loading. I always load with the sprue up so that I know it is properly oriented.

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Hi!

 Good to hear the binding problem is improved! 

 I would suggest for continued accuracy:

1.  switch to 3F powder; is finer.

2. stop the wax wad over the ball

3. Use a round ball size whereby you shave a slight ring off it when seating it. I use store bought round balls without a sprue.

4. Take the felt wads and put additional bore butter on them; put them on a plate and rub bore butter into them.

 

 I prep the barrel with straight ballistol, putting a wet patch through the barrel , then a dry patch to take out the excess. I don't put bore butter in the barrel.

 Try this and see how many cylinders you can get through. This system works for my Uberti 58.

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