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JohnWesleyHardin

Gunfighter Rules

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1 hour ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

Pretty sure the shooters hand book says otherwise. I've been wrong before though. 

 

His point was that a match director could offer El Rey Gunfighter, the category @Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life is wanting to shoot in at EOT. To his point, the SHB currently does provide that a MD may offer additional shooting categories by subdividing existing categories by all factors; including age, gender, shooting style, and propellant - provided that they can meet minimum category mandates outlined in the SHB.

 

There is no need to allow every category to shoot in the gunfighter style, as is proposed by @Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life.

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I always liked that GF did not have age based division until Vaquero Jake and Missouri Lefty started shoot GF. Then I Could not wait to turn 60 and shoot Senior GF and get away from those young whippersnappers.:D

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33 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

There is no need to allow every category to shoot in the gunfighter style,

 I would disagree. Much like duelist is allowed in any category, so should GF. By allowing competitors to choose the most efficient way to shoot each stage you would let them be their best. You see this in B Western, for example. While a competitor may shoot in any style they wish, I have never in my recall seen anyone shoot the entire match as a GF. Obviously the specific rules for GF would still exist, no cross draws for example. For those who say this would kill the GF category I would suggest looking to the aforementioned duelist style. It has been allowed from day one in any category and the duelist specific categories continue to thrive.

 

But of course this is just my opinion.

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There is no logical, sensible reason to not allow Gunfighter in every category like duelist, double duelist, and one handed. The prohibitions against Gunfighter are the last asinine remnants of the gun control movement. The idea that, in order to shoot Gunfighter as an El Rey, a NEW category of El Rey Gunfighter should be established is ridiculous in the extreme. I shoot in my age based category to make others aware that a few of us older shooters are still competing. I hope to shoot in the over 100 category in a few years.

 

I would like a logical reason that Gunfighter should be prohibited in age based categories. I mean LOGICAL not some residual gun control irrational BS.

 

I will go  to the 2021 EOT. If I am penalized with a Match DQ after driving 3,000 miles, being a Founder Ranch Member, that would very likely throw out a huge proportion of my over 85 category members.

 

Again, what tortuous lack of logic would make that sensible?

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I just thought of a reason to ban Gunfighter. Perhaps others are too embarrased to admit that they need to hold their revolver with both hands to hit a large, metal target at 7 yards. The fact that Gunfighters have no trouble doing that with a revolver in each hand makes the detractors jealous.

 

I shoot one handed, of course, that way in NRA Bullseye and shoot Gunfighter in CAS. I have been doing both for over 70 years, even before SASS was created.

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24 minutes ago, Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life said:

There is no logical, sensible reason to not allow Gunfighter in every category like duelist, double duelist, and one handed. The prohibitions against Gunfighter are the last asinine remnants of the gun control movement. The idea that, in order to shoot Gunfighter as an El Rey, a NEW category of El Rey Gunfighter should be established is ridiculous in the extreme. I shoot in my age based category to make others aware that a few of us older shooters are still competing. I hope to shoot in the over 100 category in a few years.

 

I would like a logical reason that Gunfighter should be prohibited in age based categories. I mean LOGICAL not some residual gun control irrational BS.

 

I will go  to the 2021 EOT. If I am penalized with a Match DQ after driving 3,000 miles, being a Founder Ranch Member, that would very likely throw out a huge proportion of my over 85 category members.

 

Again, what tortuous lack of logic would make that sensible?

Frankly, if you earn your MDQ...you earn a MDQ.  Your being a Founder Ranch Member nor how many miles you drove (I'm assuming your 3000 mile reference is round trip),  is totally irrelevant. And "residual gun control"???? Honestly, I think the whole situation has more to do with Black Helicopters.

 

So...kinda funny when you mention "tortuous lack of logic".

 

Phantom

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27 minutes ago, Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life said:

There is no logical, sensible reason to not allow Gunfighter in every category like duelist, double duelist, and one handed. The prohibitions against Gunfighter are the last asinine remnants of the gun control movement. The idea that, in order to shoot Gunfighter as an El Rey, a NEW category of El Rey Gunfighter should be established is ridiculous in the extreme. I shoot in my age based category to make others aware that a few of us older shooters are still competing. I hope to shoot in the over 100 category in a few years.

 

I would like a logical reason that Gunfighter should be prohibited in age based categories. I mean LOGICAL not some residual gun control irrational BS.

 

I will go  to the 2021 EOT. If I am penalized with a Match DQ after driving 3,000 miles, being a Founder Ranch Member, that would very likely throw out a huge proportion of my over 85 category members.

 

Again, what tortuous lack of logic would make that sensible?

Why would you get an MDQ, and if you did what bearing would distance traveled and Founding Member status have? Are you going there planning to register as something other than Gunfighter, but shoot Gunfighter anyway?

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Posted (edited)

The first time I encountered simultaneous firing, I thought it was five misses. I was told no, he fires simultaneously. He does it to confuse the spotters. It's a no call. I kept quiet as he was the PM and it was a far away match. :o:(

 

PS B)

Edited by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217
PS

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In age based categories you must shoot 1 pistol at a time. If you want to shoot both at the same time you have to graduate to Gunfighter. Sounds pretty logical to me.

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29 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

The first time I encountered simultaneous firing, I thought it was five misses. I was told no, he fires simultaneously. He does it to confuse the spotters. It's a no call. I kept quiet as he was the PM and it was a far away match. :o:(

 

PS B)

You're better disciplined than me...I wouldn't have been able to keep my mouth shut.

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12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You're better disciplined than me...I wouldn't have been able to keep my mouth shut.

I weighed my options. "Pick your battles" (the ones where people will listen) comes to mind. His friends, most of the posse, were used to his doing that. I hope they have learned and follow the rules by now. This happened in 2010.

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2 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 I would disagree. Much like duelist is allowed in any category, so should GF. By allowing competitors to choose the most efficient way to shoot each stage you would let them be their best. You see this in B Western, for example. While a competitor may shoot in any style they wish, I have never in my recall seen anyone shoot the entire match as a GF. Obviously the specific rules for GF would still exist, no cross draws for example. For those who say this would kill the GF category I would suggest looking to the aforementioned duelist style. It has been allowed from day one in any category and the duelist specific categories continue to thrive.

 

But of course this is just my opinion.

 

Gunfighter-style shooters ARE allowed to use cross draws, just not for both revolvers at the same time:
 

Quote

Gunfighter style competitors are prohibited from utilizing a simultaneous “double cross draw” method of drawing or holstering revolvers. 

SHB p.7

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6 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Gunfighter-style shooters ARE allowed to use cross draws, just not for both revolvers at the same time:
 

SHB p.7

No wait a minute!!!!

 

Can they use one Right Hand x-draw and one Left Hand x-draw????

 

:o

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Posted (edited)

 

3 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 I would disagree. Much like duelist is allowed in any category, so should GF. By allowing competitors to choose the most efficient way to shoot each stage you would let them be their best. You see this in B Western, for example. While a competitor may shoot in any style they wish, I have never in my recall seen anyone shoot the entire match as a GF. Obviously the specific rules for GF would still exist, no cross draws for example. For those who say this would kill the GF category I would suggest looking to the aforementioned duelist style. It has been allowed from day one in any category and the duelist specific categories continue to thrive.

 

But of course this is just my opinion.

 

2 hours ago, Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life said:

There is no logical, sensible reason to not allow Gunfighter in every category like duelist, double duelist, and one handed. The prohibitions against Gunfighter are the last asinine remnants of the gun control movement. The idea that, in order to shoot Gunfighter as an El Rey, a NEW category of El Rey Gunfighter should be established is ridiculous in the extreme. I shoot in my age based category to make others aware that a few of us older shooters are still competing. I hope to shoot in the over 100 category in a few years.

 

I would like a logical reason that Gunfighter should be prohibited in age based categories. I mean LOGICAL not some residual gun control irrational BS.

 

I will go  to the 2021 EOT. If I am penalized with a Match DQ after driving 3,000 miles, being a Founder Ranch Member, that would very likely throw out a huge proportion of my over 85 category members.

 

Again, what tortuous lack of logic would make that sensible?

 

What I am trying to say is that a NEW category of El Rey Gunfighter does NOT need to be established. It already exists. No rule change necessary.

 

In order for someone to shoot gunfighter in any category they want, that will require a rule change. And that is a simple enough solution....Take it to your TG and ask them to bring it up and vote on the rule change.

 

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
emphasis added

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Why would you get an MDQ, and if you did what bearing would distance traveled and Founding Member status have? Are you going there planning to register as something other than Gunfighter, but shoot Gunfighter anyway?

 

Sounds like it. Thing is, shooting that third stage shooting gunfighter in the El Ray category will get you the MDQ.

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25 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No wait a minute!!!!

 

Can they use one Right Hand x-draw and one Left Hand x-draw????

 

:o

 

YES.

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27 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No wait a minute!!!!

 

Can they use one Right Hand x-draw and one Left Hand x-draw????

 

:o

 

Just now, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

Awesome!

 

So what is the defining line?  As soon as one gun clears leather then you can grab the other?

 

They could pull both at the same time doing a double cavalry draw where the arms do not cross the body center line. They could also pull cross body one gun at a time and/or shoot double duelist pulling cross body.

 

They cannot pull both revolvers cross body at the same time.

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1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

YES.

We need to rewrite the entire rulebook... And while we are at it, include a clause that states that MDQ's are waved if attending a match that is 3000 miles away or more.

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Just now, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

Awesome!

 

So what is the defining line?  As soon as one gun clears leather then you can grab the other?

 

Quote

Gunfighter style competitors are prohibited from utilizing a simultaneous “double cross draw” method of drawing or holstering revolvers. 

SHB p.7

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Just now, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

They could pull both at the same time doing a double cavalry draw where the arms do not cross the body center line. They could also pull cross body one gun at a time and/or shoot double duelist pulling cross body.

 

They cannot pull both revolvers cross body at the same time.

Actually, no silly cavalry draw is needed when drawing GF from a rig composed of a left and right x-draw.

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Actually, no silly cavalry draw is needed when drawing GF from a rig composed of a left and right x-draw.

 

Especially when you get creative on where you put the holsters.

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38 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Sounds like it. Thing is, shooting that third stage shooting gunfighter in the El Ray category will get you the MDQ.

Yep. 

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5 minutes ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

Never thought of trying a cavalry twist from a cross draw holster... seems like it would be awkward.  

 

 

a lot of it depends on how much cant your cross draw has...

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29 minutes ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

Never thought of trying a cavalry twist from a cross draw holster... seems like it would be awkward.  

 

It takes practice.

 

23 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

a lot of it depends on how much cant your cross draw has...

 

...and where the holster is located on the belt.


REF: the "demo" videos in the above linked 2013 discussion thread.

Those were presented to prove that Cav/twist-draw is not inherently unsafe.

(previously, that style of draw was legal in all categories EXCEPT Gunfighter)

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5 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Gunfighter-style shooters ARE allowed to use cross draws, just not for both revolvers at the same time:

 

I stand corrected, again.:unsure:

 

5 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

In order for someone to shoot gunfighter in any category they want, that will require a rule change. And that is a simple enough solution....Take it to your TG and ask them to bring it up and vote on the rule change.

 

Yes, having been a TG for some 8 years I am aware of the procedure. In fact, while I was TG I tried to get support for this and found very few people that thought the same way as me, at least that were vocal here on the wire or at matches. 

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9 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

We need to rewrite the entire rulebook... And while we are at it, include a clause that states that MDQ's are waved if attending a match that is 3000 miles away or more.

Need to be careful. That 3000 miles won't cut it, as the issue is only about 1400 miles from FR. Better cut it to 1250 miles (2500 round trip) just to be on the safe side.

 

I would hate to pass this rule change and then need to vote on an amendment or ask the ROC for clarification on whether the distance was straight line or driving and whether it is one way or round trip. Can we also count mileage from stops along the way? What about flight time?

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17 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Sounds like it. Thing is, shooting that third stage shooting gunfighter in the El Ray category will get you the MDQ.

Seems strange to go through all that time and expense just to MDQ yourself.
 

Why not try to recruit a few other people so SASS will honor the category? It’s what everyone else does.

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Seems strange to go through all that time and expense just to MDQ yourself.
 

Why not try to recruit a few other people so SASS will honor the category? It’s what everyone else does.

 

Re-reading the SHB, I believe I was mistaken, or at least forgot this key point.... You get to be that old, there is an exception to the minimum entrant mandate.

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21 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

What I am trying to say is that a NEW category of El Rey Gunfighter does NOT need to be established. It already exists. No rule change necessary.

 

In order for someone to shoot gunfighter in any category they want, that will require a rule change. And that is a simple enough solution....Take it to your TG and ask them to bring it up and vote on the rule change.

I have brought up shooting GF in any age-based category at least twice. It was a very unpopular request.

 

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There's no logical rationale for the prohibition. Those unable to shoot Gunfighter appear to be threatened by those that can1 :(

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7 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I have brought up shooting GF in any age-based category at least twice. It was a very unpopular request.

 

 

Only explanation I have ever seen is that it is just too dangerous to let just anyone shoot gunfighter. That excuse was recently given by many for not not writing stage instructions that would allow any shooter to shoot a particular stage gunfighter.

 

I have even read of clubs making shooters take a test and qualify before they could shoot gunfighter. :(

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Only explanation I have ever seen is that it is just too dangerous to let just anyone shoot gunfighter. That excuse was recently given by many for not not writing stage instructions that would allow any shooter to shoot a particular stage gunfighter.

 

I have even read of clubs making shooters take a test and qualify before they could shoot gunfighter. :(

Are they still doing that? I've heard of it too.

 

In 1999, at an annual match, I saw someone shooting GF that scared me. He was very old and used very hot loads. The recoil made his revolvers point straight up. If he was allowed to shoot, I can't imagine anyone else being denied.

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