WTC

[Tennessee williams]

Stage has 5 rifle and 5 pistol targets. Target order is 2 five round sweeps from the same side. SG is 4 kds any order. Guns are any order, rifle not last. All shot from single location.

 

Shooter is used to shooting double duelist but decides to shoot in the gunfighter category this match.

 

At the beep:

*Shooter fires correct sequence with the rifle, no misses puts rifle down. 

*Shooter draws only one pistol and shoots the correct first half of the pistol sequence, reholsters.

*Shooter then picks up the shotgun and loads and closes it. Then he draws the 2nd revolver and fires the correct 2nd falf of the pistol sequence while holding the loaded shotgun. He then reholsters the last pistol and fires the shotgun engaging the targets as required.

[Griff]

"Next Shooter!"  Or, in the vernacular, "no call."

 

Quote

o A Gunfighter may utilize any sequence that is available for use by any other shooting category.

As for holding the "loaded" shotgun while they shot the 2nd pistol, was the action closed?  For a Gunfighter, this has no bearing, as they are allowed to have two loaded guns in hand at the same time... 

[Tennessee williams]

37 minutes ago, Griff said:

"Next Shooter!"  Or, in the vernacular, "no call."

 

As for holding the "loaded" shotgun while they shot the 2nd pistol, was the action closed?  For a Gunfighter, this has no bearing, as they are allowed to have two loaded guns in hand at the same time... 

Yes it's closed. Don't think category matters in that circumstance though. GF can have 2 cocked revolvers out at same time. I believe the rule is other categories cant have 2 cocked or is it just loaded revolvers out.

[Griff]

6 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yes it's closed. Don't think category matters in that circumstance though. GF can have 2 cocked revolvers out at same time. I believe the rule is other categories cant have 2 cocked or is it just loaded revolvers out.

Other categories can't have 2 loaded revolvers out of leather.  However...

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

sdq,,, live round in chamber while next type gun has been fired,,,,

[Snake River Clay SASS #34984]

Me as match director, local match: no call. Major match, anywhere: major discussion. Hopefully ending in a no call. 

Whenever I have a novel way of shooting a stage I run it by the TO first. I love mixing things up as a Gunfighter. 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

being a gunfigher has nothing to do with this call

[Rye Miles #13621]

2 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

being a gunfigher has nothing to do with this call

 

20 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

sdq,,, live round in chamber while next type gun has been fired,,,,

I agree with Cheyenne 100% on this!!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

NO CALL.

 

Quote

Let's say the shooter is a duelist with a cross-draw rig.  So, if pistols are to be shot first, but the shooter loaded their shotgun first, instead of opening and shucking the shells, they can just hold it, loaded and cocked, and as long as muzzle direction is maintained, shooter can fire both revolvers, then the shotgun?  No penalty.   

"WtC?" - April 2018

 

YES.

[Griff]

Whew... 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

you can then leave empties in sg in hand while firing revolver?    wasn't that way before!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

shooter did NOT clear the sg!  he fired revolver while holding a loaded closed sg...

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

you can then leave empties in sg in hand while firing revolver?    wasn't that way before!

 

NO...the penalties for LEAVING rounds (live or empty) in a long gun apply AFTER the long gun has been FIRED during the stage engagement.

That was clarified in the referenced previous thread.

 

 

[Griff]

3 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

you can then leave empties in sg in hand while firing revolver?    wasn't that way before!

Yes, just can't put it down... 

Penalties are associated with discarded long guns.  Risk in keeping them in hand is muzzle control.  

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

2 minutes ago, Griff said:

Yes, just can't put it down... 

Penalties are associated with discarded long guns.  Risk in keeping them in hand is muzzle control.  

that's not what PWB just said

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

so, you can have a closed loaded sg in hand while shooting a revolver, but not an open one with empties?  doesn't make sense

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 minutes ago, Griff said:

Yes, just can't put it down... 

 

Penalties are associated with discarded long guns.  Risk in keeping them in hand is muzzle control.  

 

The penalty(s) for leaving rounds (empty or unfired) in a long gun at the end of the shooting string apply whether the long gun is set down OR "in hand" as soon as the next firearm is fired.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

so, you can have a closed loaded sg in hand while shooting a revolver, but not an open one with empties?  doesn't make sense

 

The rules require a long gun to be CLEARED at the end of the shooting string; before firing the next firearm.

 

[Griff]

Hmmm... that's not what the rules state... 

Quote

- Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely
downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round
being fired. If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being
fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of
the stage under the observation of the CRO/TO. Should an empty casing/hull be
ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open
action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed. If the action is opened
and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long
gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”.

(There is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm,
as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands).

If the shotgun hasn't left the shooter's hands, how does the penalty take effect, when the rules specifically states it takes effect upon leaving the shooter's hands.

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

ok,, but this will be called wrong all over the place, it doesn't make sense,, but ok,, I'll teach it that way

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

1 minute ago, Griff said:

Hmmm... that's not what the rules state... 

If the shotgun hasn't left the shooter's hands, how does the penalty take effect, when the rules specifically states it takes effect upon leaving the shooter's hands.

 

see pwb's answer above

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

so, if it's rifle, pistol sg move, pistol sg,,,,   I cud load the sg on the way to second pistol,  hold sg in hand while shoting P then shoot sg... as long as I don't close it on the move...?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

3 minutes ago, Griff said:

Hmmm... that's not what the rules state... 

If the shotgun hasn't left the shooter's hands, how does the penalty take effect, when the rules specifically states it takes effect upon leaving the shooter's hands.

 

 

That statement refers to the rule violation immediately preceding it re: "a live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands"

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Can you then have a loaded and cocked rifle in hand while shooting a revolver?

[Griff]

7 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

That statement refers to the rule violation immediately preceding it re: "a live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands"

I guess I've always read that to apply all three possible conditions;  a shooter returning to a discarded long gun and checking the action to determine whether the action is empty, (no call), an empty in the action (MSV), or an unfired round, (SDQ).   As, there is no opportunity to correct the condition of the discarded firearm, as a subsequent firearm has been fired and the shooter's stage is over.  But the first sentence implies that two conditions are necessary, the action will be cleared and discarded... It makes no sense to have no penalty for holding a shotgun that's loaded and cocked, and then imposing a penalty for holding an open shotgun with an empty or two in it.

 

Yep, in my world, if the firearm isn't both cleared and discarded, it doesn't meet the criteria for a penalty under that rule.

 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

3 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Can you then have a loaded and cocked rifle in hand while shooting a revolver?

apparently,,,

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

7 minutes ago, Griff said:

I guess I've always read that to apply all three possible conditions;  a shooter returning to a discarded long gun and checking the action to determine whether the action is empty, (no call), an empty in the action (MSV), or an unfired round, (SDQ).   As, there is no opportunity to correct the condition of the discarded firearm, as a subsequent firearm has been fired and the shooter's stage is over.  But the first sentence implies that two conditions are necessary, the action will be cleared and discarded... It makes no sense to have no penalty for holding a shotgun that's loaded and cocked, and then imposing a penalty for holding an open shotgun with an empty or two in it.

...

 

That statement has been clarified in the 2019 version.

All other conditions in that section may be corrected before firing the next firearm of the stage.

A long gun must still be CLEARED at the end of the shooting string, even if it is not "discarded" (e.g. remains held "in hand").

 

Quote

However, if the action is opened and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”.  In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands. 

2019 Version 23.2 18 

[Yusta B.]

And - he would have had to shoot the second pistol with opposite hand used with first pistol -- Gunfighter rule.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Wow, now I'm totally confused!! So I can have a loaded CLOSED shotgun in my hand while I'm shooting a pistol? Don't seem right!

[Ace_of_Hearts]

9 hours ago, Griff said:

"Next Shooter!"  Or, in the vernacular, "no call."

 

As for holding the "loaded" shotgun while they shot the 2nd pistol, was the action closed?  For a Gunfighter, this has no bearing, as they are allowed to have two loaded guns in hand at the same time... 

REVOLVERS

 

SHB page 7

 

[Chicken George*]

I didn't see anywhere which hand he used for each revolver? Doesn't he have to shoot one revolver in one hand and the other revolver in the opposite hand if shooting gunfighter? 

[Tennessee williams]

25 minutes ago, Chicken George* said:

I didn't see anywhere which hand he used for each revolver? Doesn't he have to shoot one revolver in one hand and the other revolver in the opposite hand if shooting gunfighter? 

Yes, one for each hand like double duelist.

[Kirk James]

Let me see if I understand this:  !)You still cannot move with a loaded shotgun 2) you can load the shotgun and shoot the revolver(s) as long you have not previously shot the shotgun   3)  you can move with an open loaded shotgun  4)  you can move with empty hulls and correct the situation as long as the next firearm has not be shot or you correct it before you sit it down at the unloading table if it is the last firearm engaged.  Is this right?   

[Blackwater 53393]

What's the over on the number of pages??

 

Hey!!  PW!!!  Got any more of them Black Stars??

[Yusta B.]

1 minute ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

What's the over on the number of pages??

 

That would be 42 I believe .......