Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Recently, last weekend actually, at a local shoot, there was a rifle reload,, shooter had forgotten and had laid the rifle down, after being reminded by the TO to reload, shooter closes lever and then decocked the rifle, letting the hammer down with his thumb. after some discussion, it was called a SDQ because of a call a month earlier at a state match nearby. I made a call from the match to check if this was correct, and after the ROC looked at it, it was unanimously called a ,,,, NO CALL! It was not done to prevent a penalty,,, and is a practice we do at the loading table all the time,,, I applaud their decision. edit to add, Yes, this applies to revolvers as well,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlow4697 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Was the rifle levered opened after last shot was fired? the lever was closed on an empty chamber? then hammer was deocked ? This is what is done at the loading table by everyone isn't it? Personally I don't see any safety problem. this is not the fastest way to reload but it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Did the ROC ruling only apply to rifles? What if it was a pistol? Last time I was at a match with a pistol reload, there were a couple of shooters who loaded, indexed, decocked, then went click click click click click BANG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said: Did the ROC ruling only apply to rifles? What if it was a pistol? Last time I was at a match with a pistol reload, there were a couple of shooters who loaded, indexed, decocked, then went click click click click click BANG. Explain how a Pistol can replicate the situation that was presented to the ROC. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 yes, it applies to revolvers as well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laramie Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I was there, and I completely agreed with you. It was not to avoid a penalty, and there was no safety issue. I seriously doubt that the call at the state shoot was exactly the same as this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, Laramie said: I was there, and I completely agreed with you. It was not to avoid a penalty, and there was no safety issue. I seriously doubt that the call at the state shoot was exactly the same as this situation. it was for EXACTLY the same reason,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manassas Jack Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 why lower the hammer? On the firing line there is no need to lower the hammer to reload a rifle. And if you just want to, then just point the weapon down range and pull the trigger. No bang, no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 interesting thread. there are 2 different areas in the rule book that mention de-cocking. shooters HB page 14 firearm conventions. - No firearm may be de-cocked on the firing line to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone downrange. Once a revolver is cocked, the round must be expended (shot). However, if a round has not gone downrange, and under the direction and supervision of the CRO/TO, the revolver may be decocked. This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO for the shooter to do so. shooters HB page 22 STAGE DQ penalties De-cocking a revolver, rifle, or hammered shotgun without positive direction to do so from the CRO/TO. in the OP, shooter is not de-cocking to avoid a penalty, so gets to de-cock without penalty, even with no RO permission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlow4697 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Rules in hand book are for loaded firearms this was an empty rifle Shooter decocked the hammer from lack of experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, Catlow4697 said: Rules in hand book are for loaded firearms this was an empty rifle Shooter decocked the hammer from lack of experience Not sure rule apply to only loaded firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 45 minutes ago, Hoss said: interesting thread. there are 2 different areas in the rule book that mention de-cocking. shooters HB page 14 firearm conventions. - No firearm may be de-cocked on the firing line to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone downrange. Once a revolver is cocked, the round must be expended (shot). However, if a round has not gone downrange, and under the direction and supervision of the CRO/TO, the revolver may be decocked. This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO for the shooter to do so. shooters HB page 22 STAGE DQ penalties De-cocking a revolver, rifle, or hammered shotgun without positive direction to do so from the CRO/TO. in the OP, shooter is not de-cocking to avoid a penalty, so gets to de-cock without penalty, even with no RO permission? YES... in this situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: so, different scenario. shooter shoots 5, cocks revolver, click cocks again, TO says revolver empty. Shooter decocks. penalty or no? I've always thought that was a penalty as rule book says no de-cocking without TO instruction/permission. I think we even had a WTC thread on that a couple of months ago (I could not find it but i'm not very "search savvy") and, i'm not arguing a call, i'm just trying to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, Hoss said: so, different scenario. shooter shoots 5, cocks revolver, click cocks again, TO says revolver empty. Shooter decocks. penalty or no? I've always thought that was a penalty as rule book says no de-cocking without TO instruction/permission. I think we even had a WTC thread on that a couple of months ago (I could not find it but i'm not very "search savvy") and, i'm not arguing a call, i'm just trying to get it right. penalty,,,, the clarification only, only is for while reloading during the stage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westwood Willie Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Interesting thread. When you leave the ULT the rifle's action in open and the hammer is cocked. It stays that way until going to the LT. At that point you have to close the action to load the rifle. Do you un-cock or leave the hammer cocked ? Either way there is no live round in the chamber. WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Just now, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: penalty,,,, the clarification only, only is for while reloading during the stage Thanks! and I’ll confess, I have de-cocked my rifle while reloading. No reason to, should just close the lever, stuff one in the gate, lever and shoot. I usually close the lever, try to load one over the top, then open the lever, try to put one in the loading gate. Usually do this 2-3 times before I get it right!!!! i finally decided to go with over the top exclusively. I even try to (gulp) practice it. While it is more frought with potential for mid-haps, it is a little quicker, and with practice, is not that hard to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: yes, it applies to revolvers as well.. If someone put down their pistol cocked??? That would be a stage DQ ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 A revolver is different than a rifle or shotgun. There is a penalty for holstering (or staging) a cocked revolver. A cocked revolver may never leave a shooters hand, including from one hand to the other. This does not apply when loading or reloading on the firing line. Therefor decocking a revolver, is by its very nature, an attempt to avoid a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Shootem, SASS # 24816 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, Westwood Willie said: Interesting thread. When you leave the ULT the rifle's action in open and the hammer is cocked. It stays that way until going to the LT. At that point you have to close the action to load the rifle. Do you un-cock or leave the hammer cocked ? Either way there is no live round in the chamber. WW In that instance you must uncock. Showing up at the stage with a loaded and cocked rifle will earn you a stage DQ. Here's the quote from the latest Shooters Handbook: "It is also not allowed to leave the loading table with a cocked, loaded firearm." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 18 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: If someone put down their pistol cocked??? That would be a stage DQ ! that is not what is is about,,, while reloading if you do decock a rifle or revolver and happen to decock, no call,,, as per the ROC in the stated original thread the shooter put down his open empty rifle,,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 CC-Was the rifle's chamber clear/empty, when the hammer was lowered? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: CC-Was the rifle's chamber clear/empty, when the hammer was lowered? OLG yes,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: that is not what is is about,,, while reloading if you do decock a rifle or revolver and happen to decock, no call,,, as per the ROC in the stated original thread the shooter put down his open empty rifle,,,,,, And you said in the OP that this applies to revolvers also! How? A cocked revolver cannot leave your hand, that's what happened with the rifle! Just quoting what you said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westwood Willie Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Woody Shootem, SASS # 24816 said: In that instance you must uncock. Showing up at the stage with a loaded and cocked rifle will earn you a stage DQ. Here's the quote from the latest Shooters Handbook: "It is also not allowed to leave the loading table with a cocked, loaded firearm." Good. I have been doing it right all along. WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: If someone put down their pistol cocked??? That would be a stage DQ ! Not if you declare 'broken-gun'. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: And you said in the OP that this applies to revolvers also! How? A cocked revolver cannot leave your hand, that's what happened with the rifle! Just quoting what you said! no, the rifle was open and empty, safe to leave the shooter's hands,,, you can put a pistol down in the same condition,,, it applies to the revolver if during a revolver reload the shooter lowers the hammer for some reason.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Explain how a Pistol can replicate the situation that was presented to the ROC. Phantom Well first off, I think one of us doesn't understand the situation as presented to the ROC. At least not the important parts of it. The rifle being laid down was irrelevant. The rest of it applies to most revolvers. Secondly, I don't think they are the same. Decocking a revolver during a reload probably oughta be a penalty. But it seems I am in the minority on that. So I was just curious if the ROC had addressed that. Third, we don't even know the exact situation that the ROC considered unless we can read the ROC wire or PWB posted it up for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 18 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said: Well first off, I think one of us doesn't understand the situation as presented to the ROC. At least not the important parts of it. The rifle being laid down was irrelevant. The rest of it applies to most revolvers. Secondly, I don't think they are the same. Decocking a revolver during a reload probably oughta be a penalty. But it seems I am in the minority on that. So I was just curious if the ROC had addressed that. Third, we don't even know the exact situation that the ROC considered unless we can read the ROC wire or PWB posted it up for us. Yeah...I know. Just asked if you would explain how...oh nevermind... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 18, 2018 Author Share Posted August 18, 2018 19 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said: Well first off, I think one of us doesn't understand the situation as presented to the ROC. At least not the important parts of it. The rifle being laid down was irrelevant. The rest of it applies to most revolvers. Secondly, I don't think they are the same. Decocking a revolver during a reload probably oughta be a penalty. But it seems I am in the minority on that. So I was just curious if the ROC had addressed that. Third, we don't even know the exact situation that the ROC considered unless we can read the ROC wire or PWB posted it up for us. they considered the EXACT scenario that I listed in the first post,,,,,and yes the ROC considered the revolver likewise and consider it the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: no, the rifle was open and empty, safe to leave the shooter's hands,,, you can put a pistol down in the same condition,,, it applies to the revolver if during a revolver reload the shooter lowers the hammer for some reason.. Okay I agree during a reload but putting down a cocked revolver is a penalty, SDQ at the least! I think you're trying to confuse us!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 18, 2018 Author Share Posted August 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: Okay I agree during a reload but putting down a cocked revolver is a penalty, SDQ at the least! I think you're trying to confuse us!! with some, I don't have to try!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadshot Dan Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Is the confusion in the fact that the rifle was first laid down then picked back up ? Just wondering, cause i have closed my lever and dropped the hammer on my rifle on a firing line reload before and the T.O never said a word. Later i was told that it wasn't necessary , but muscle memory from the loading table and being a newer shooter kicked in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 10 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: with some, I don't have to try!!! Smart A%$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 18, 2018 Author Share Posted August 18, 2018 55 minutes ago, Deadshot Dan said: Is the confusion in the fact that the rifle was first laid down then picked back up ? Just wondering, cause i have closed my lever and dropped the hammer on my rifle on a firing line reload before and the T.O never said a word. Later i was told that it wasn't necessary , but muscle memory from the loading table and being a newer shooter kicked in. it was the lowering of the hammer,,, but now, that is not an issue while doing a reload during a stage.. your TO used common sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 18, 2018 Author Share Posted August 18, 2018 Just now, Rye Miles #13621 said: Smart A%$ see, hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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