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WTC,,, decocking while reloading on the line?


Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

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Recently, last weekend actually, at a local shoot, there was a rifle reload,,   shooter had forgotten and had laid the rifle down, after being reminded by the TO to reload, shooter closes lever and then decocked the rifle, letting the hammer down with his thumb.   after some discussion, it was called a SDQ because of a call a month earlier at a state match nearby.  

I made a call from the match to check if this was correct, and after the ROC looked at it, it was unanimously called a ,,,,  NO CALL!

 

It was not done to prevent a penalty,,,  and is a practice we do at the loading table all the time,,,  I applaud their decision.

 

edit to add,  Yes, this applies to revolvers as well,,,

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Was the rifle levered opened after last shot was fired?

the lever was closed on an empty chamber?

then hammer was deocked ?

This is what is done at the loading table by everyone isn't it?

Personally I don't see any safety problem.

this is not the fastest way to reload but it works.

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Did the ROC ruling only apply to rifles?  What if it was a pistol?  Last time I was at a match with a pistol reload, there were a couple of shooters who loaded, indexed, decocked, then went click click click click click BANG. 

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5 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Did the ROC ruling only apply to rifles?  What if it was a pistol?  Last time I was at a match with a pistol reload, there were a couple of shooters who loaded, indexed, decocked, then went click click click click click BANG. 

Explain how a Pistol can replicate the situation that was presented to the ROC.

 

Phantom

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yes, it applies to revolvers as well..

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I was there, and I completely agreed with you. It was not to avoid a penalty, and there was no safety issue. I seriously doubt that the call at the state shoot was exactly the same as this situation. 

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9 minutes ago, Laramie said:

I was there, and I completely agreed with you. It was not to avoid a penalty, and there was no safety issue. I seriously doubt that the call at the state shoot was exactly the same as this situation. 

it was for EXACTLY the same reason,,,

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why lower the hammer? On the firing line there is no need to lower the hammer to reload a rifle.  And if you just want to, then just point the weapon down range and pull the trigger. No bang, no call.

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interesting thread. there are 2 different areas in the rule book that mention de-cocking.

 

 

shooters HB page 14 firearm conventions. 

- No firearm may be de-cocked on the firing line to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone downrange. Once a revolver is cocked, the round must be expended (shot). However, if a round has not gone downrange, and under the direction and supervision of the CRO/TO, the revolver may be decocked. This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO for the shooter to do so.

 

shooters HB page 22 STAGE DQ penalties 

De-cocking a revolver, rifle, or hammered shotgun without positive direction to do so from the CRO/TO.

 

in the OP, shooter is not de-cocking to avoid a penalty, so gets to de-cock without penalty, even with no RO permission? 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Catlow4697 said:

Rules in hand book are for loaded firearms this was an empty rifle 

Shooter decocked the hammer from lack of experience 

Not sure rule apply to only loaded firearms.  

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Hoss said:

interesting thread. there are 2 different areas in the rule book that mention de-cocking.

 

 

shooters HB page 14 firearm conventions. 

- No firearm may be de-cocked on the firing line to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone downrange. Once a revolver is cocked, the round must be expended (shot). However, if a round has not gone downrange, and under the direction and supervision of the CRO/TO, the revolver may be decocked. This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO for the shooter to do so.

 

shooters HB page 22 STAGE DQ penalties 

De-cocking a revolver, rifle, or hammered shotgun without positive direction to do so from the CRO/TO.

 

in the OP, shooter is not de-cocking to avoid a penalty, so gets to de-cock without penalty, even with no RO permission?   YES... in this situation 

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

 

so, different scenario. shooter shoots 5, cocks revolver, click cocks again, TO says revolver empty. Shooter decocks. penalty or no? 

 

I've always thought that was a penalty as rule book says no de-cocking without TO instruction/permission. I think we even had a WTC thread on that a couple of months ago (I could not find it but i'm not very "search savvy") 

 

and, i'm not arguing a call, i'm just trying to get it right. 

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13 minutes ago, Hoss said:

so, different scenario. shooter shoots 5, cocks revolver, click cocks again, TO says revolver empty. Shooter decocks. penalty or no? 

 

I've always thought that was a penalty as rule book says no de-cocking without TO instruction/permission. I think we even had a WTC thread on that a couple of months ago (I could not find it but i'm not very "search savvy") 

 

and, i'm not arguing a call, i'm just trying to get it right. 

penalty,,,,

 

the clarification only, only is for while reloading during the stage

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Interesting thread.    When you leave the ULT the rifle's action in open and the hammer is cocked. It stays that way until going to the LT.  At that point you have to close the action to load the rifle. Do you un-cock or leave the hammer cocked ? Either way there is no live round in the chamber.

WW

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Just now, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

penalty,,,,

 

the clarification only, only is for while reloading during the stage

Thanks!

 

and I’ll confess, I have de-cocked my rifle while reloading. No reason to, should just close the lever, stuff one in the gate, lever and shoot. I usually close the lever, try to load one over the top, then open the lever, try to put one in the loading gate. Usually do this 2-3 times before I get it right!!!!

i finally decided to go with over the top exclusively. I even try to (gulp) practice it. While it is more frought with potential for mid-haps, it is a little quicker, and with practice, is not that hard to do. 

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2 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

yes, it applies to revolvers as well..

If someone put down their pistol cocked??? That would be a stage DQ !

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A revolver is different than a rifle or shotgun.

There is a penalty for holstering (or staging) a cocked revolver.

A cocked revolver may never leave a shooters hand, including from one hand to the other. This does not apply when loading or reloading on the firing line.

Therefor decocking a revolver, is by its very nature, an attempt to avoid a penalty.

 

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10 minutes ago, Westwood Willie said:

Interesting thread.    When you leave the ULT the rifle's action in open and the hammer is cocked. It stays that way until going to the LT.  At that point you have to close the action to load the rifle. Do you un-cock or leave the hammer cocked ? Either way there is no live round in the chamber.

WW

 

In that instance you must uncock.  Showing up at the stage with a loaded and cocked rifle will earn you a stage DQ.  Here's the quote from the latest Shooters Handbook:  "It is also not allowed to leave the loading table with a cocked, loaded firearm."

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18 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

If someone put down their pistol cocked??? That would be a stage DQ !

that is not what is is about,,,

while reloading if you do decock a rifle or revolver and happen to decock, no call,,, as per the ROC

 

in the stated original thread the shooter put down his open empty rifle,,,,,,   

 

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Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

CC-Was the rifle's chamber clear/empty, when the hammer was lowered?

OLG

yes,,, 

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2 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

that is not what is is about,,,

while reloading if you do decock a rifle or revolver and happen to decock, no call,,, as per the ROC

 

in the stated original thread the shooter put down his open empty rifle,,,,,,   

 

And you said in the OP that this applies to revolvers also! How? A cocked revolver cannot leave your hand, that's what happened with the rifle! Just quoting what you said!:wacko:

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2 hours ago, Woody Shootem, SASS # 24816 said:

 

In that instance you must uncock.  Showing up at the stage with a loaded and cocked rifle will earn you a stage DQ.  Here's the quote from the latest Shooters Handbook:  "It is also not allowed to leave the loading table with a cocked, loaded firearm."

 

 

Good. I have been doing it right all along.

WW

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2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

And you said in the OP that this applies to revolvers also! How? A cocked revolver cannot leave your hand, that's what happened with the rifle! Just quoting what you said!:wacko:

no, the rifle was open and empty, safe to leave the shooter's hands,,, you can put a pistol down in the same condition,,,  it applies to the revolver if during a revolver reload the shooter lowers the hammer for some reason..

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10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Explain how a Pistol can replicate the situation that was presented to the ROC.

 

Phantom

 

Well first off, I think one of us doesn't understand the situation as presented to the ROC.  At least not the important parts of it.  The rifle being laid down was irrelevant.  The rest of it applies to most revolvers. 

 

Secondly, I don't think they are the same.  Decocking a revolver during a reload probably oughta be a penalty.  But it seems I am in the minority on that.  So I was just curious if the ROC had addressed that. 

 

Third, we don't even know the exact situation that the ROC considered unless we can read the ROC wire or PWB posted it up for us. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Well first off, I think one of us doesn't understand the situation as presented to the ROC.  At least not the important parts of it.  The rifle being laid down was irrelevant.  The rest of it applies to most revolvers. 

 

Secondly, I don't think they are the same.  Decocking a revolver during a reload probably oughta be a penalty.  But it seems I am in the minority on that.  So I was just curious if the ROC had addressed that. 

 

Third, we don't even know the exact situation that the ROC considered unless we can read the ROC wire or PWB posted it up for us. 

 

Yeah...I know.

 

Just asked if you would explain how...oh nevermind...

 

Phantom

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19 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Well first off, I think one of us doesn't understand the situation as presented to the ROC.  At least not the important parts of it.  The rifle being laid down was irrelevant.  The rest of it applies to most revolvers. 

 

Secondly, I don't think they are the same.  Decocking a revolver during a reload probably oughta be a penalty.  But it seems I am in the minority on that.  So I was just curious if the ROC had addressed that. 

 

Third, we don't even know the exact situation that the ROC considered unless we can read the ROC wire or PWB posted it up for us. 

 

they considered the EXACT scenario that I listed in the first post,,,,,and yes the ROC considered the revolver likewise and consider it the same

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2 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

no, the rifle was open and empty, safe to leave the shooter's hands,,, you can put a pistol down in the same condition,,,  it applies to the revolver if during a revolver reload the shooter lowers the hammer for some reason..

Okay I agree during a reload but putting down a cocked revolver is a penalty, SDQ at the least!

 

I think you're trying to confuse us!!:P

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1 minute ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Okay I agree during a reload but putting down a cocked revolver is a penalty, SDQ at the least!

 

I think you're trying to confuse us!!:P

with some, I don't have to try!!!

 

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Is the confusion in the fact that the rifle was first laid down then picked back up ?  Just wondering, cause i have closed my lever and dropped the hammer on my rifle on a firing line reload before and the T.O never said a word.  Later i was told that it wasn't necessary , but muscle memory from the loading table and being a newer shooter kicked in.

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10 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

with some, I don't have to try!!!

 

Smart A%$

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55 minutes ago, Deadshot Dan said:

Is the confusion in the fact that the rifle was first laid down then picked back up ?  Just wondering, cause i have closed my lever and dropped the hammer on my rifle on a firing line reload before and the T.O never said a word.  Later i was told that it wasn't necessary , but muscle memory from the loading table and being a newer shooter kicked in.

it was the lowering of the hammer,,, but now, that is not an issue while doing a reload during a stage..  your TO used common sense

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Just now, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Smart A%$

see, hehe

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