Charlie Plasters, SASS#60943 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Was talking to a friend from Iowa recently and he commented that the restriction on shotgun barrel length had been revoked. In other words, sawed off shotguns are now legal. Any truth to this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Wouldn't count on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Something that significant would not have gone unnoticed by so many aware people. (Not all of us but we have some folks who are n top of all important gun news.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 5 hours ago, Charlie Plasters, SASS#60943 said: Was talking to a friend from Iowa recently and he commented that the restriction on shotgun barrel length had been revoked. In other words, sawed off shotguns are now legal. Any truth to this? I haven't heard anything that changes the current law on SG barrel lengths. BUT, 'sawed off' is legal as long as the length stays within the legal limits. Do you know if he is just talking about cutting down a barrels length? Maybe sawing it down to 18+ inches? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 A little clarification, please. "Legal" - actual law, or SASS rules? I don't think either has changed, but which do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Friend was probably confused by the new crop of firearms that have hit the market lately. Still requires a NFA stamp if you modify a shotgun barrel to be shorter than 18 inches. Example would be the New 14” Mossberg Shockwave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Exactly what SD said. I would not want to be the one to find out any different if secondhand "knowledge" is true or not. Unlawfully possessing something considered an NFA item I believe has a 10-year time out in a federal penitentiary ascribed to it. That said, people saw off shotgun barrels all the time for various reasons but done right will involve a gunsmith, resetting the bead, and ensuring that federal legal length is still maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 He maybe talking about the Mossberg Shockwave or guns deemed to be AOW -any other weapon, if I remember correctly. The barrel can be 14" but the over all length must be greater than 26". AND The receiver must originally be designated as one made for a pistol grip. NOT a "shotgun" receiver as defined by the ATF. So, if you take a pump shotgun, slap a shorter than 18" barrel on it with a Shockwave stock you are in violation. If you take a shotgun that originally made as a pistol grip shotgun. Put a 14" barrel on it with a Shockwave or similar stock but keep the gun (not shotgun) longer than 26" it would (supposedly) be legal. Technicslly, in the eyes of the ATF a shotgun is deemed a shotgun when it has a standard shoulder resting buttstock and a barrel length greater than 18". Shortening the barrel makes it illegal. But you can leave the 18" barrel and put a pistol grip on it as long as it's still 26" in OAL. It's too early for this much thinking...I think I said that right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 32 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: He maybe talking about the Mossberg Shockwave or guns deemed to be AOW -any other weapon, if I remember correctly. The barrel can be 14" but the over all length must be greater than 26". AND The receiver must originally be designated as one made for a pistol grip. NOT a "shotgun" receiver as defined by the ATF. That is how I interpret it. Quote So, if you take a pump shotgun, slap a shorter than 18" barrel on it with a Shockwave stock you are in violation. If you take a shotgun that originally made as a pistol grip shotgun. Put a 14" barrel on it with a Shockwave or similar stock but keep the gun (not shotgun) longer than 26" it would (supposedly) be legal. I don't think so as you modified a firearm originally sold as a shotgun. As I read it that would be illegal. As I understand it qualify as an AOW the firearm has to have been classified and sold that way by the original manufacturer. Quote Technicslly, in the eyes of the ATF a shotgun is deemed a shotgun when it has a standard shoulder resting buttstock and a barrel length greater than 18". Shortening the barrel makes it illegal. But you can leave the 18" barrel and put a pistol grip on it as long as it's still 26" in OAL. That is how I interpret it. Quote It's too early for this much thinking...I think I said that right... Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Howdy, Any time folks start talking about changing laws where you can lose property and or be jailed and or fined, ask for reference. Ive had friends who repeated claims about guns. When pressed they didn't know what they were talking about. DOCUMENTATION, pard. Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 With respect to NFA items if there is ever a question get your answers from the ATF website or call one of their offices. Have documentation or written corrospondence to verify. If you have an NFA Firearms Trust your NFA trust attorney might also be familiar with all the legalities. I say might though. An NFA attorney is not always a "gun guy" and might only be more familiar with the Trust than the NFA items themselves. Due diligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Dave (and others). A Shockwave is NOT an AOW. An Any Other Weapon is an NFA item that requires paperwork, fingerprints, photographs, a background check, and payment of a one-time tax. The tax is only five bucks, instead of the two hundred a machine gun costs, but EVERYTHING ELSE is the same. A Shockwave, on the other hand, is just a gun. You go to the gun shop, you give them money, you take it home with you (in free states). The ATF has decided that a smoothbore firearm that was sold with a pistol grip on it is NOT a shotgun, because (by their definition) a shotgun is fired from the shoulder. A "pistol grip only" (PGO) shotgun cannot be fired from the shoulder, so it isn't a shotgun. If you were to buy a Mossberg Cruiser, which is an 18" 12 gauge with a pistol grip, you could put a raptor grip on it, and then cut it to 14", legally. Make sure, though, that you change the grip before you cut it. With the factory grip, a fourteen-inch gun would be shorter that the legal minimum of 26 inches. Now, if you were to take a standard "riot gun", which is identical to the Cruiser in every other respect, but has a buttstock instead of a pistol grip, and you were to cut it to 14", you committed a Federal felony, unless you first papered it as a Short Barreled Shotgun and paid the 200 dollars. The rules are somewhat strange, but for the most part understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Hickock45 just issued another video on the Remington version of the Shockwave. My understanding is that this gun is legal in this configuration coming from the factory. But you can't take a standard shotgun and make one out of it. One of the importers of the 97 clone should take note and make a version from the 97 action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 40 minutes ago, Alpo said: The rules are somewhat strange, but for the most part understandable. And for the most part, NFA by large is totally ridiculous and in most cases, some would argue all cases, unneeded. But it is the law and we have to follow it. Or, as responsible gun owners we get to follow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Plasters, SASS#60943 Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 WOW what a plethora of information! I should have known it wasn't going to be a simple yes or no answer. As usual the SASS guys come through with the answers. Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Maybe this will help...maybe it won't: https://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88 Scroll down to the letters that come up as PDFs. I was going to try and post them here but they harder to read that way. So here are the links: July 20, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage October 27, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage Page 1 of third letter Page 2 of third letter Page 1 of fourth letter Page 2 of fourth letter So, the way I read this is I bought a Mossberg Persuader "pistol gripped" shotgun a few years ago. Since it was manufactured and sold as a "pistol gripped" gun and not a "stocked gun" I can turn it into a Shockwave type gun or AOW (any other weapon)....I said "I can". I do not plan to push my luck in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 You can turn it into a Shockwave. But if you want to turn it into an AOW, it's a 200 dollar tax. It's five dollars to TRANSFER one - if you sell me your AOW I pay five bucks. But it's 200 to MAKE a firearm. Don't matter whether it's gonna be an SBS, SBR, AOW or Silencer. The MAKING tax is the same for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major E A Sterner #12916 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 The Mossberg shockwave is by ATF definition a "Firearm" it is not a pistol or a shot gun. If you have a pistol grip SHOTGUN, you can not put the shockwave barrel and grip on it,it will then be a short ( under 18.25 inches barrel) shotgun and subject to the $200.00 tax and federal charges for manufacturing a sawed off shotgun. The receivers for the shockwave were registered by Mossberg as firearms which allow them to build them with the 14 inch barrel and grip,BUT they have to be at least 26 inches overall. If you want one of these just pay the $400.00 and get it legally from your favorite local FFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 8 hours ago, Major E A Sterner #12916 said: The Mossberg shockwave is by ATF definition a "Firearm" it is not a pistol or a shot gun. If you have a pistol grip SHOTGUN, you can not put the shockwave barrel and grip on it,it will then be a short ( under 18.25 inches barrel) shotgun and subject to the $200.00 tax and federal charges for manufacturing a sawed off shotgun. The receivers for the shockwave were registered by Mossberg as firearms which allow them to build them with the 14 inch barrel and grip,BUT they have to be at least 26 inches overall. If you want one of these just pay the $400.00 and get it legally from your favorite local FFL. I have heard both sides of this Major. The Mossberg 590 receiver is exactly the same receiver on the shockwave so "technically" you "should" be able to put a shorter barrel on it it with the Shockwave grip and be "legal". I was going to do this and decided I like my freedom intact and I don't wish to spend money on legal fees fighting a giant Federal agency on what should be "legal". I agree with you. Spend the money on the Mossberg or Remington manufactured units and be on the safe side. Also, Mossberg stopped selling the shorter barrels by themselves for liability reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 The "buttstock vs pistol grip" thing with the shotgun is the same as a Rossi 92 vs a Ranch Hand. Same receiver, but one has a buttstock and one doesn't. Your theory - >so "technically" you "should" be able to put a shorter barrel on it it with the Shockwave grip and be "legal".< would mean that you could put a short stock and short barrel on your 92 stock and have a legal Ranch Hand. But you can't. If it started as a rifle, it is always a rifle. And if it started as a shotgun it is always a shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Alpo, Read this:...or don't... http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/3/31/tested-mossberg-590-shockwave/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I'm confused, Pat. I haven't read the pdfs. It's late. Maybe tomorrow. But that American Rifleman article - it says exactly what I said. The Shockwave is just a gun - not NFA. But if you take a SHOTGUN, remove the buttstock, put on a Raptor grip, and chop the barrel to 14 inches, YOU HAVE BROKEN THE LAW. I don't see your point with "read this". "This" agrees with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I don't see much point in actually owning the firearm that is or is not a shotgun except for the fact that it is tantalizing because it is a non NFA almost NFA item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Rings SASS # 27466 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Dan, you just have not experienced the joy of shooting a shotgun from the hip! It can be quite addictive. Especially on flyers. SR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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