WTC

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

I have also seen someone try and call being swept.

When in fact.

THEY was standing INSIDE. The shooters 170.

 

They had moved up so they could see better. But in doing so. Had moved inside the shooters 170.

Shooter did not break the 170. But that person had been swept.

But it was that persons fault for being up to far. Not the shooter.

 

That issue was addressed recently in the CC (by two different commentators).

The ROC stands by their NO CALL on the shooter if someone wanders/steps into the SHOOTER's 170 during stage engagement.

 

If someone is stupid enough to enter the downrange KILL ZONE during a live fire exercise, it is not the SHOOTER's fault.

[Most Wanted]

My understanding of the rule book comes the book & common sense

& of course PWB

My point of my post was on this stage posse members should have given shooters clear access

To the ULT !!!!

Thanks

Unless someone is hovering over the stage there is no reason to seeep anyone on the way to the ULT. I've been on a few tight berms and escaped them all without sweeping someone.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

 

That issue was addressed recently in the CC (by two different commentators).

The ROC stands by their NO CALL on the shooter if someone wanders/steps into the SHOOTER's 170 during stage engagement.

 

If someone is stupid enough to enter the downrange KILL ZONE during a live fire exercise, it is not the SHOOTER's fault.

EXCELLENT!!!!

[Anvil Al #59168]

 

That issue was addressed recently in the CC (by two different commentators).

The ROC stands by their NO CALL on the shooter if someone wanders/steps into the SHOOTER's 170 during stage engagement.

 

If someone is stupid enough to enter the downrange KILL ZONE during a live fire exercise, it is not the SHOOTER's fault.

 

 

+1

And that was what was done then also.

It was a no call. And pointed out to the person trying to call it.

That they was in the wrong position.

[Most Wanted]

 

 

+1

And that was what was done then also.

It was a no call. And pointed out to the person trying to call it.

That they was in the wrong position.

Al , are you referring to the OP. Because he said that happened while the shooter was exiting the stage. Considering we have people all around us after the stage is shot as in brass pickers, target setters , spectators and both loading and unloading tables I find it best to adhere to "muzzles up".

[Anvil Al #59168]

Al , are you referring to the OP. Because he said that happened while the shooter was exiting the stage. Considering we have people all around us after the stage is shot as in brass pickers, target setters , spectators and both loading and unloading tables I find it best to adhere to "muzzles up".

 

 

No. If you see my post Palewolf copied.

And that I replied to.

Post #71

It should come clear.

[Most Wanted]

 

 

No. If you see my post Palewolf copied.

And that I replied to.

Post #71

It should come clear.

Gotcha. Thanks

[Griff]

Thank you PWB.

 

I was about to make comment of what you stated. (Plus, I'm oughta blue ink in my computer... )

Here is an unending supply of [ color=#0000ff] blue ink [ /color]for your 'puter! Just remove the spaces from inside the brackets "[]".

[Wyatt]

Hey Cypress Sun

 

I think we have the topic for next months pre match demonstration.................the 170 and the firing line

 

Seems to be a lot of misconceptions on how to apply the 170 rule

[Blastmaster]

I have often seen folks say that the 170 rule was broken or that they were swept because they could see the hole in the barrel.

 

I believe it was Santa Fe River Stan that had a good visual of what the 170 truly looks like. It is only 5 degrees off of the horizontal or vertical. That is about 10 inches forward of the shooting line at 10 feet from the shooter.

 

As such, you can normally see the entire bore with only slight distortion and still be within the 170 degree rule. And it is not easy toe "measure" with the eye. That is why many people believe they have been swept or saw the 170 broken, when it was not.

 

Normally, when folks do break the 170, it is pretty obvious because they have went beyond vertical or horizontal. Even though that is only a few degrees different, it is much easier to determine that was it 160 or 175 degrees.

 

So, my experience is that yes, sometimes it does need to be validated.

Let me point a firearm realllllllly -realllllllly close to your right ear as we face each other. i suppose you wouldn't be nervous or anything because this wouldn't be considered being 'swept..

 

Try explaining this example to anyone familiar with firearms and then tell them there is no penalty in the world of SASS.

 

Am I missing something?

[Captain Bill Burt]

Let me point a firearm realllllllly -realllllllly close to your right ear as we face each other. i suppose you wouldn't be nervous or anything because this wouldn't be considered being 'swept..

 

Try explaining this example to anyone familiar with firearms and then tell them there is no penalty in the world of SASS.

 

Am I missing something?

I think so.

 

Marauder correctly pointed out that just because you can see the muzzle doesn't mean you were swept.

 

You seem to be advocating a penalty for almost being swept.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

If someone points a gun real close to the right ear, they mostly likely swept part of you. Plus it would generally be considered not only impolite but unsafe gun handling. So end of discussion there.

 

Of course safety is a major concern as it should be. The rules clearly point out that unsafe gun handling is not allowed. Not every situation can be specifically spell out in the rules (Sorry to those who love our tax code..). So we must use some logic - I won't even say common sense as we know how rare that can be.

 

We need to continually watch and warn people when they are getting near such a critical error. But we also much properly apply the rules as stated. Giving warnings as needed and earned penalties as defined in the rules.

 

But I wanted to point out that some people are not good at determining where the 170 rule is applied and how it is applied. It is only 5 degrees off of vertical or horizontal.

 

But sweeping someone is often a separate issue from the 170 rule.

[Grizzly Dave]

 

But sweeping someone is often a separate issue from the 170 rule.

 

Give that man a ceegar we have a winner.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

 

... we also much properly apply the rules as stated. Giving warnings as needed and earned penalties as defined in the rules.

 

Amen and amen. Failure to apply penalties to those who earn them... penalizes every other shooter in the match who participated within the confines of the rules.

[Blastmaster]

Lets see here,,, there is no penalty for just general unsafe gun handling, such as pointing a firearm very near someone;s ear.

ROI, pg 21

3. Minor safety infractions occurring during a course of fire that do not directly endanger

persons will result in a 10-second penalty being added to the shooter’s time for that stage.

“Minor” safety infractions are occurrences such as failure to return an empty revolver to its

holster at the conclusion of a shooting string.

4. Major safety infractions will result in the shooter’s Disqualification from the Stage or

Match. “Major” infractions include: a dropped gun, a discharge that is unsafe or a discharge

that impacts less than ten feet from the shooter, violation of the 170° safety rule, “sweeping”

any person with the muzzle of a firearm, and similar acts that have high potential for personal

injury. Committing two (or more) Stage DQ infractions will result in a

Match DQ (even on the same stage). This does NOT apply to a single

action that carries multiple penalties (e.g. breaking the 170º with an

unloaded firearm AND simultaneously sweeping someone). There are

circumstances where a single Major Safety violation will result in a Match Disqualification.

(See Addendum for listing of penalties.)

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

Lets see here,,, there is no penalty for just general unsafe gun handling,

Yes there is.

RTFM

such as pointing a firearm very near someone;s ear.

ROI, pg 21

...

(See Addendum for listing of penalties.)

 

[Blastmaster]

 

Lets see here,,, there is no penalty for just general unsafe gun handling,

Yes there is.

RTFM

 

such as pointing a firearm very near someone;s ear.

 

 

 

ROI, pg 21

 

...

(See Addendum for listing of penalties.)

 

You mean this one from RO1 page 24? That would apply for looking down the muzzle or cylinder face that didn't sweep ya?

 

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION

 

• Unsafe firearm handling, such as fanning

[Wyatt]

What is unsafe about NOT sweeping someone with a firearm?

 

Pointing a firearm near someone is NOT pointing a firearm at someone

 

Sheeesh!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

What is unsafe about NOT sweeping someone with a firearm?

 

Pointing a firearm near someone is NOT pointing a firearm at someone

 

Sheeesh!

EGGGGZACKLY!!!!

 

But...unfortunately you'll always have folks that want to do nothing but point fingers and accuse others of being idjuts that don't know the rear end from a hole in the ground.

 

Phantom

[mezcal mike]

Perhaps they'll be able to share their thoughts on other issues they didn't see as well.

+1

[Blastmaster]

What is unsafe about NOT sweeping someone with a firearm?

 

Pointing a firearm near someone is NOT pointing a firearm at someone

 

Sheeesh!

The whole point for you and Phantom is that SASS has a rule and a penalty for unsafe gun handling, of which sweeping (look it up) some one is just one example, as is pointing the muzzle at some one or someones body part is another, as is dropping a guns still another and having a bullet impact within xx ft is still another. There are others and the SASS rule on unsafe gun handling is rather open. Just says unsafe gun handllng. I used pointing a gun near the ear (because the muzzle did not sweep nor was in direct line) as only an example to make a point and I think it is unsafe gun handling. Wow, and you two do not think so?

 

Appears some folks really need to review what unsafe gun handling is.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

The whole point for you and Phantom is that SASS has a rule and a penalty for unsafe gun handling, of which sweeping (look it up) some one is just one example, as is pointing the muzzle at some one or someones body part is another, as is dropping a guns still another and having a bullet impact within xx ft is still another. There are others and the SASS rule on unsafe gun handling is rather open. Just says unsafe gun handllng. I used pointing a gun near the ear (because the muzzle did not sweep nor was in direct line) as only an example to make a point and I think it is unsafe gun handling. Wow, and you two do not think so?

 

Appears some folks really need to review what unsafe gun handling is.

No...it's apparent that you make up straw man arguments.

 

Show me where anyone said that pointing a gun near someone's ear is fine...

 

Why do you assume that everyone else is stoopid and unreasonable...yet you are the voice of reason????

 

Phantom

[Wyatt]

The whole point for you and Phantom is that SASS has a rule and a penalty for unsafe gun handling, of which sweeping (look it up) some one is just one example, as is pointing the muzzle at some one or someones body part is another, as is dropping a guns still another and having a bullet impact within xx ft is still another. There are others and the SASS rule on unsafe gun handling is rather open. Just says unsafe gun handllng. I used pointing a gun near the ear (because the muzzle did not sweep nor was in direct line) as only an example to make a point and I think it is unsafe gun handling. Wow, and you two do not think so?

 

Appears some folks really need to review what unsafe gun handling is.

 

There is NO penalty in SASS for pointing a firearm near a persons ear. How close? 1 inch, 2 feet, do tell. At any and every match I have been to I have been close to being swept. Being 6' 6" many firearms have been near my ear. WE ALL HAVE FIREARMS. If you have had one pointed in your direction you have to provide specific information to determine a proper call. In my mind I have you close to or in the shooters 170 (kill zone) and bitching that you where almost swept. Provide specific information or suck it up Buttercup

 

General statements that you often provide offer nothing but confusion on the wire and are counter productive to the discussion.................such as this waste of my time and effort

 

Apparently reading the rule books for you is not understanding the rule books as many of your past statements over time have provided ample evidence

 

Please seek professional help.............an RO refresher course or try to befriend an RO instructor for long term help.

 

 

 

PS: Where do you live? Where do you shoot? Have you ever run a timer? Has ANYBODY ever shot with or seen you at a match?

[Blastmaster]

 

There is NO penalty in SASS for pointing a firearm near a persons ear. How close? 1 inch, 2 feet, do tell. At any and every match I have been to I have been close to being swept. Being 6' 6" many firearms have been near my ear. WE ALL HAVE FIREARMS. If you have had one pointed in your direction you have to provide specific information to determine a proper call. In my mind I have you close to or in the shooters 170 (kill zone) and bitching that you where almost swept. Provide specific information or suck it up Buttercup

 

General statements that you often provide offer nothing but confusion on the wire and are counter productive to the discussion.................such as this waste of my time and effort

 

Apparently reading the rule books for you is not understanding the rule books as many of your past statements over time have provided ample evidence

 

Please seek professional help.............an RO refresher course or try to befriend an RO instructor for long term help.

 

 

 

PS: Where do you live? Where do you shoot? Have you ever run a timer? Has ANYBODY ever shot with or seen you at a match?

i believe you and Phantom need to reread the post you two are replying too. Unsafe gun handling.

 

Phantom asked who says pointing a firearm at someones ear is fine? You are a prime example and answers Phantoms questions.

 

Sorry you are easy to confuse. You are welcome to hit next post at anytime during your reading if confusion sets in or you don't like what someone is saying.

[Wyatt]

The spokesman for the for the ROC gave you some advice in post #86.

 

Please feel free to reread that also!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

i believe you and Phantom need to reread the post you two are replying too. Unsafe gun handling.

 

Phantom asked who says pointing a firearm at someones ear is fine? You are a prime example and answers Phantoms questions.

 

Sorry you are easy to confuse. You are welcome to hit next post at anytime during your reading if confusion sets in or you don't like what someone is saying.

No...read again.

 

I said "at", not "Near".

 

Read...

 

And funny...you didn't answer any questions posed to you...which simply doesn't surprise me.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

[Bones Z]

My understanding of the 170 rule differs from yours, I thought it was from gun cart to gun cart.

 

It is from the loading table, on the line, and to the unloading table. One of the TO's safety responsibilities is to watch the shooter from loading table through their arrival at the unloading table. Talking to the scorekeeper or the spotters is secondary to this safety responsibility. Before they are loaded the rule is no sweeping, but also no 170. once a shooter arrives at the loading table, the 170 is in effect until they are confirmed to be unloaded by the unloading table officer. Once confirmed, they may point them where they want as long as they don't sweep anyone. Sweeping someone away from the line is still a SDQ (unloaded). You must be aware of your muzzles at all times.

 

PWB's website has a good dissertation on the responsibilities of the TO.

 

(looks like I got to this post late).

[Captain Bill Burt]

This has been discussed before. There is no 170 rule once the shooter is through shooting and heading to the ULT. At that point there will almost certainly be people downrange resetting shotgun targets and so forth. The shooters responsibility is to not sweep someone, not to maintain muzzles pointed downrange, as that may no longer be safe.