Silver Shadow Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Details/Conditions: .45 Colt Uberti '66, PGW Super Short Stroke kit, 200gr RNFP w/slightly over minimum published load of TrailBoss, Federal standard large pistol primers, 0 to once fired Starline brass(mixed box). 750 to 1000(near as I recall) of this same load fired with no problem, ammo stored in car overnight at approx 25 degrees F, more blow-back(as determined by casing grime) than usual(something I've noticed with these loads when it's particularly cold), been practicing(I know, don't judge) so cycle time is improving lately, temperature at shoot was high 40's low 50's, shooting multi-tap targets, Problem: On 2 separate stages, primers backed out of the pockets(first time I've ever had this happen), disengaging the brass from the extractor. One resulted in a jam leaving 7 in the tube, the other was on the last shot and earned me a MSV. Questions: Even if under pressure conditions existed, and they contributed to primer push, how can a primer make it's exit with the bolt closed, head space would have to be huge(doesn't seem to be any evidence of wear or other reason for the head space to have increased)? Is it possible that I'm firing slightly out of battery, thus providing the increased head space, but wouldn't it be odd that the primers exit pressure would overcome the pressure on the casing against the bolt face? What think ye? And if you've experienced something similar, what did you do about it? Help SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 To begin, many powders are temperature sensitive. In the past and apparently warmer conditions, your ammo generated enough pressure to push the case back and reseat the primer (normal) Presently, under cold conditions, not enough pressure to push back the case. Add more powder. To continue, Uberti rifle are normally delivered with one of two head space conditions. Too little or too much. Seldom with optimum head space .004. Plus, there is some inherent "slop" in a Toggle Link" action. You need a tapered set of feeler gauges to determine what your head space actually is. measure between the case head (dummy round) and the face of the Breach Block (bolt) with the action closed. You may also want to try a Magnum Primer for a little better ignition, or a different powder when the weather gets cold. Regardless, you should address the head space. Once you determine your head space, Joe Alves at Pioneer can provide you with a set of links that will correct the head space. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Stephen D Hill, SASS #56151 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Had this problem once before, and a friend in his '73 (mine is a '66). Had everything to do with crimp!! And yes, TB is more temp sensitive than some. I use Titewad and Titegroup, not very temp sensitive and cleaner! JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 And, Starline brass has had problems in the past of having primer pockets too big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 You state a little above minimums. Did you get the minimum from a manual or did you calculate it using this procedure form IMR/Hodgdon? I have found TB to be temp sensitive. Had it act very badly one shoot this winter. Almost went home because I didn't want to ruin a firearm with a squib. Picked up some magnum primers that I use for the cold weather shoots but I am not 100% sure they actually made a difference. TB very sensitive to case volume. Too much case volume and it begins to misbehave. Because I seat bullets out past the published OAL I had to determine the minimum using the procedure published by IMR/Hodgdon. Based on your description I would say a combination of cold weather and charges right at the minimum. I would calculate the minimum using the proceedure above and then load a couple of tenths above the calculated minumim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Get away from Trail Boss. Use Titegroup, or Red Dot, or Clays ect, Use Federal Mag primers. Use a heavy crimp. Keep velocities at or slightly above 700 FPS. This should cure the temp sensitiveness, and consequently your problem. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Shadow Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 I knew I could count on you guys. Good info, I do appreciate it very much. My first thought was a low pressure situation from the cold weather. I too, have had almost squibby sounding loads at some real cold shoots, but never had a primer back out on me. I do crimp as tight as I can with a factory crimp die in a separate station, so I hope that's not it. I will measure the head space while I'm at it just to see where I'm at. The minimum load I spoke of was from a manual not from the calculation. I will try that out and see what it tells me. I hope the Starline brass is not the problem, I'd hate to have to replace it all, but if all else fails... I've been contemplating filling the cases up a little more, just to cut down on the blow back mess, probably should have done 'er sooner, but I love my .45s and was hoping I wouldn't have to up the recoil, and possibly have to slow down the multi-taps. Thanks all for the input. SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Trail Boss makes good plant food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I've never understood the desire to take a .45 Colt case and load it at or below its minimum load. Kinda like detuning a big block V8 in a 'Vette for maximum gas mileage. And speaking just for me, the difference in felt recoil between minimum loads and say, mid-range loads (or even max loads) in a long gun is not that noticeable. Minimum loads add a layer of consequences/effects that in my book aren't worth accommodating. I sold my .45 Rossi for a .38/357 '73 and I'm much happier with that setup. Before that purchase, I went from using a 200 gr bullet to 250 gr to clear up the blow-by issues I was having. The difference in recoil was not objectionable (to me) and cleaned up a formerly filthy receiver. If minimum recoil is the holy grail, then I recommend a smaller caliber or case than the .45 Colt. It's just tough to make it perform well at the bottom end. However, one's circumstances might not allow that option. In the meantime, a bit more powder or a heavier bullet will be more than worth it, IMHO. My 2 cents, nothing more, and probably not worth that much! Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 mine occurred in the revolver locking them up , stops you cold and leaves you with misses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diablo slim Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Switch to cowboy specials length brass...Trail boss loves those but I guess they wont run in your rifle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 BTW... Measure how far the farthest primer was out. Add that to what that cartridge rim measures. Ask yourself where that rifle came up with that much space. Better yet, ask a good gunsmith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Shadow Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 I've never understood the desire to take a .45 Colt case and load it at or below its minimum load. Kinda like detuning a big block V8 in a 'Vette for maximum gas mileage. And speaking just for me, the difference in felt recoil between minimum loads and say, mid-range loads (or even max loads) in a long gun is not that noticeable. Minimum loads add a layer of consequences/effects that in my book aren't worth accommodating. I sold my .45 Rossi for a .38/357 '73 and I'm much happier with that setup. Before that purchase, I went from using a 200 gr bullet to 250 gr to clear up the blow-by issues I was having. The difference in recoil was not objectionable (to me) and cleaned up a formerly filthy receiver. If minimum recoil is the holy grail, then I recommend a smaller caliber or case than the .45 Colt. It's just tough to make it perform well at the bottom end. However, one's circumstances might not allow that option. In the meantime, a bit more powder or a heavier bullet will be more than worth it, IMHO. My 2 cents, nothing more, and probably not worth that much! Good luck! Very good points, but, not liking to load different loads for pistol and rifle, it is more of concern for pistol recoil. I went to 200s from 250s for no more reason that economy of lead, My preference for .45's is primarily cartridge handling, for on the clock reloads, at the loading table, and at the reloading bench. They're just more comfortable in my fumble fingers. I'm probably over thinking the recoil situation. Since I prefer heavier guns, I've really had no adverse recoil effects with any of the loads I've used. I understand the benefits of the smaller calibers, but, t's just a matter of trying to maximize the "game efficiency" with the equipment I've chosen. May have pushed it to far this time.. BTW... Measure how far the farthest primer was out. Add that to what that cartridge rim measures. Ask yourself where that rifle came up with that much space. Better yet, ask a good gunsmith. The primers left the building. No Idea where they ended up. Weren't in the action anywhere, just gone. That's part of what has me baffled. How the heck did they get out of there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 If you are shooting fairly quick (say, 6 second strings or faster), there's a good chance you were tripping the trigger AFTER having backed the unfired case out of the action, by about 0.250". The hammer will still fall and the FP hit the primer that far open. If you have an extractor that doesn't hold the case real tight against the bolt face, the FP strike pushes the case head off the bolt face while firing the cartridge. Gas pressure exiting the flash hole can make that even more likely. Primer squirts straight up out of the action (being an open top like it is. Cases would get really smoked up because there isn't a good seal any more with the chamber. Pressures would be lower than normal. Possibility of powder gases back into your face, too. I had one that I fired with the (73) action open about 0.400". Case walls get thinner the farther up a .45 colt case you go, and the walls of the case blew out about 1/3 of the way around the case. Strong impact to the lever because the toggle links were no longer locked (straight). Primer was still in that fired case, though. That would be the scenario that I would say could most likely give you all the symptoms you report. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I had similar occurrence. With the Uberti 1873 lever action rifle and a carbine, both shooting 38 Specials. Headspace checked out fine. (C&I forth Gen) and C&I 5th Gen. On the 4th gen, we went to a longer set of links, to close the action sooner. Still had primers backin out. Finally Lefty Wheeler made a few phone calls, and received the theory, that the trigger was being pulled and the round fired before the action was competely closed. We kinda figured and guessed that the safety bar was too long and allowing the trigger to be pulled sooner than the action was completely close. So, we trimmed a weee little bit off the safety bar - where it comes in contact with the lever. Dog gone it..... it worked, No more primers backin out. Drawback is the 66 does not have the safety bar. Might ask TBone Dooley how he runs his 66 so dang fast. I assume he does not have those problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 And, Starline brass has had problems in the past of having primer pockets too big. I saw a similar problem just a few weeks ago. Primer backed out on new Starline brass.......looked at the flash hole, looked like it had been drilled out for wax/rubber bullets. This was brass that had never been fired before. Oversized flashhole = backed out primer........pretty much regardless of the load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 If you are shooting fairly quick (say, 6 second strings or faster), there's a good chance you were tripping the trigger AFTER having backed the unfired case out of the action, by about 0.250". The hammer will still fall and the FP hit the primer that far open. If you have an extractor that doesn't hold the case real tight against the bolt face, the FP strike pushes the case head off the bolt face while firing the cartridge. Gas pressure exiting the flash hole can make that even more likely. Primer squirts straight up out of the action (being an open top like it is. Cases would get really smoked up because there isn't a good seal any more with the chamber. Pressures would be lower than normal. Possibility of powder gases back into your face, too. I had one that I fired with the (73) action open about 0.400". Case walls get thinner the farther up a .45 colt case you go, and the walls of the case blew out about 1/3 of the way around the case. Strong impact to the lever because the toggle links were no longer locked (straight). Primer was still in that fired case, though. That would be the scenario that I would say could most likely give you all the symptoms you report. Good luck, GJ Holy buckets, that's scary, being able to drop the hammer with the action open. Never knew 73s could do that. And with the toggle unlocked as well ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Holy buckets, that's scary, being able to drop the hammer with the action open. Never knew 73s could do that. And with the toggle unlocked as well ! In that particular instance, the shape of the block part of the trigger safety which contacts the trigger makes it possible to hold, with light pressure on the trigger, the trigger safety bar so it does not re-block the trigger as the lever opens. I have that listed as an improvement to make on my 73's. Very rare occurrence. Slapped my fingers hard as the OOB occurred, partially blowing open the case. Bent the lever enough that I could not continue to shoot the 73 until I got the geometry back into shape. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I saw a similar problem just a few weeks ago. Primer backed out on new Starline brass.......looked at the flash hole, looked like it had been drilled out for wax/rubber bullets. This was brass that had never been fired before. Oversized flashhole = backed out primer........pretty much regardless of the load. You know, I've got a Starline case marked .45 Blank that is made for mounted shooters. It has a giant primer flash hole. That may be what you saw! Exactly dimensioned like a standard .45 Colt on the rest of the case. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 You know, I've got a Starline case marked .45 Blank that is made for mounted shooters. It has a giant primer flash hole. That may be what you saw! Exactly dimensioned like a standard .45 Colt on the rest of the case. Good luck, GJ And someone may have drilled a flash hole for wax bullets & fired it & it got left on the range & picked up by someone else. Very long shot but maybe ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 And someone may have drilled a flash hole for wax bullets & fired it & it got left on the range & picked up by someone else. Very long shot but maybe ???? OP may want to check some flash holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 You know, I've got a Starline case marked .45 Blank that is made for mounted shooters. It has a giant primer flash hole. That may be what you saw! Exactly dimensioned like a standard .45 Colt on the rest of the case. Good luck, GJ You know, the more I think about it, the more I remember. The primer actually came out of the brass and jammed the rifle up. I had never seen this before. Inspection of the now primerless, once fired brass revealed a larger than normal flash hole. Gotta wonder as this was brand new brass from Starline. For the record, this was .38 spl brass and marked as the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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