Wyatt Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Shooter normally shoots a cross draw rig. Shooter is shooting traditional style with two strong side holsters on the opposite sides of his body(not in front) With his RIGHT hand reaches across his body, palm out, he draws his LEFT pistol from his LEFT strong side holster. When finished returns it in pretty much the reverse order. The TO was in good position but was blocked by the shooters body from seeing the draw. I, as one of the spotters, was on the shooters right side and could not clearly see the muzzle/barrel to see if it broke the 170. ................what's the call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Ya can't call what you can't see. That being said my wrist don't flex enough to do that without the muzzle pointing back away from the firing line. But maybe his did. My question is WHY would anybody do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 Why? First stage of the day, normally shoots a cross draw rig............add in shooter ready......beep Don't know nothin bout "intent" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 You cannot call any 170 violation on any draw or re-holster from any straight hang holster. Period. If such were so , NO one could ever draw or re-holster from any straight hang holster as EVERY such draw does indeed and perforce break the 170. It has always been the exception to the 170 rule. NO call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 You cannot call any 170 violation on any draw or re-holster from any straight hang holster. Period. If such were so , NO one could ever draw or re-holster from any straight hang holster as EVERY such draw does indeed and perforce break the 170. It has always been the exception to the 170 rule. NO call. Here is a slight nit. I thought the posted interpretation was that if your holster is truly a straight hang holster, you could never go further back more than 180 to holster or draw?? Some think the straight hang holster allowed unlimited breaking of the 170. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goliath, SASS #41359 Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 no call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Here is a slight nit. I thought the posted interpretation was that if your holster is truly a straight hang holster, you could never go further back more than 180 to holster or draw?? Some think the straight hang holster allowed unlimited breaking of the 170. OP makes no mention of going backwards of 180 of muzzle on either draw or re-holster. So long as the muzzle is perpendicular when it breaks the plane of the top of the holster it is still no call. No one has the vision or judgement to say it was not a legal draw or re-holster. Still no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 OP makes no mention of going backwards of 180 of muzzle on either draw or re-holster. So long as the muzzle is perpendicular when it breaks the plane of the top of the holster it is still no call. No one has the vision or judgement to say it was not a legal draw or re-holster. Still no call. I would agree, if no one saw an illegal draw it has to be a no call no matter the method. If a former cross draw shooter is used to putting his off hand gun back in the holster with his strong hand, I could see him drawing from a straight hang holster this way. My stomach would prevent me from doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Since you were the ONLY spotter in a position to observe muzzle direction, it's YOUR CALL. If you couldn't clearly SEE the muzzle, you can't call the "break". The "straight hang holster" allowance applies to ALL types of legally worn (@ 30º or less angle) holsters when drawing or reholstering. The MUZZLE is not allowed to go beyond 180º in an UPrange orientation with a revolver "in hand". REF: RO1 p.31 The allowance for "breaking the 170º" is only to a straight up & down (180º) direction as it clears or re-enters a holster. The barrel MUST then go from/to a DOWNrange orientation to/from the 180º. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 You cannot call any 170 violation on any draw or re-holster from any straight hang holster. Period. THAT'S "NOT QUITE CORRECT" If such were so , NO one could ever draw or re-holster from any straight hang holster as EVERY such draw does indeed and perforce break the 170. It has always been the exception to the 170 rule. NO call. IF the muzzle points beyond the 180º in an UPrange direction, the shooter is in violation. That is NOT what the "exception" allows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 SHB Pg 24 20. SASS matches are not fast draw competitions. Any unsafe gun handling in the course of a draw from the holster or any “fanning” will result in the shooter’s disqualification from that stage. “Slip-hammering” is not the same as fanning and is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 If YOU think it was "unsafe" based on YOUR observations, take it to the T/O to make the call. (FWIW - I just tried that & it CAN be done without breaking the 170...dependent on the shooter's physique and manual dexterity) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 (FWIW - I just tried that & it CAN be done without breaking the 170...dependent on the shooter's physique and manual dexterity) I can too........... but this was a......YIKES........moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 If this was in YOUR estimation, a serious safety issue YOU should have stopped the action until the safety issue was resolved and then run the shooter thru again. If, YOU couldn't see it, and didn't call it, it's no call. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 If YOU think it was "unsafe" based on YOUR observations, take it to the T/O to make the call. (FWIW - I just tried that & it CAN be done without breaking the 170...dependent on the shooter's physique and manual dexterity) To save Wyatt the trouble, I was the TO. I did not see a 170 (or 180) violation but I really wasn't in a position to see it. It's my own fault for not being in position to see the unholster and reholster mainly due to the fact that I wasn't expecting it. No one could say (with any certainty) if the shooter had violated any safety rule, therefore none was called. Lesson learned for me. CS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 To save Wyatt the trouble, I was the TO. I did not see a 170 (or 180) violation but I really wasn't in a position to see it. It's my own fault for not being in position to see the unholster and reholster mainly due to the fact that I wasn't expecting it. No one could say (with any certainty) if the shooter had violated any safety rule, therefore none was called. Lesson learned for me. CS There you go...........it's always the TO's fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Sun I wouldn't be to hard on yourself. It's hard to be at the perfect angle to see all that goes on. I usually stand behind and a little to the side. But no matter where you stand there will be a blind spot because we can't see through the shooter. Now with Wyatt as a TO it's like Google Earth. Not much can be missed I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 To save Wyatt the trouble, I was the TO. I did not see a 170 (or 180) violation but I really wasn't in a position to see it. It's my own fault for not being in position to see the unholster and reholster mainly due to the fact that I wasn't expecting it. No one could say (with any certainty) if the shooter had violated any safety rule, therefore none was called. Lesson learned for me. CS There's no fault for not being in some position, whatever that is?? To view a violation or problem. We can only be I one place at a time and see what we see. No call. Regards, Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I mist it!!! I thot SUN was tha shooter..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 All I can say is... You Florida boys sure seem to have a lot of "What's the call" questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904 Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I really hope no body here is in the habit of calling a violation they didn't see. If you didn't see it happen, the answer is pretty obvious as to what the call is. You're "spotters" no "guessers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 I really hope no body here is in the habit of calling a violation they didn't see. If you didn't see it happen, the answer is pretty obvious as to what the call is. You're "spotters" no "guessers". I really hope no body here is in the habit of jumping to conclusions. Its obvious you weren't there and are guessing what I did or did not see. If as you are implying I am prone to guessing I would have called a 170 violation and NO BODY would have questioned the call This type of situation must be a common occurrence in your area if something like this doesn't give you pause In retrospect the call should have been a SDQ for unsafe gun handling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 All I can say is... You Florida boys sure seem to have a lot of "What's the call" questions... I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. Methinks there's a lot of lawyers that have migrated to Florida! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 naw, wyatt just laks tu pul yur chanes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 All I can say is... You Florida boys sure seem to have a lot of "What's the call" questions... lol just Wyatt & Cypress Sun they are magnets for weird s#*t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I really hope no body here is in the habit of jumping to conclusions. Its obvious you weren't there and are guessing what I did or did not see. If as you are implying I am prone to guessing I would have called a 170 violation and NO BODY would have questioned the call This type of situation must be a common occurrence in your area if something like this doesn't give you pause In retrospect the call should have been a SDQ for unsafe gun handling I am surprised at a recommended unsafe gun handling call. I have seen numerous duelist shooters do something very similar on holstering. Did the shooter have his pistol and muzzle under control and not break the 180, if so it seems like a no call to me. You can not call a penalty you think was so. I draw my off hand pistol with thumb and forefinger only using trigger guard and rear sight. Is that unsafe gun handling? If so you better talk to some of the CAS shooting instructors as they teach it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 lol just Wyatt & Cypress Sun they are magnets for weird s#*t That's true...does seem to be them two all the time. I'm soooo sorry for you folks in Florida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I really hope no body here is in the habit of jumping to conclusions. Its obvious you weren't there and are guessing what I did or did not see. If as you are implying I am prone to guessing I would have called a 170 violation and NO BODY would have questioned the call This type of situation must be a common occurrence in your area if something like this doesn't give you pause In retrospect the call should have been a SDQ for unsafe gun handling OK, I'll make it simple. You asked "what's the call" If you saw a violation, make the call If you didn't, it's a no call GESSSSSS, musta hit a nerve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 15, 2014 Author Share Posted June 15, 2014 I am surprised at a recommended unsafe gun handling call. I have seen numerous duelist shooters do something very similar on holstering. Did the shooter have his pistol and muzzle under control and not break the 180, if so it seems like a no call to me. You can not call a penalty you think was so. I draw my off hand pistol with thumb and forefinger only using trigger guard and rear sight. Is that unsafe gun handling? If so you better talk to some of the CAS shooting instructors as they teach it that way. You draw and reholster your LEFT strong side holster pistol with you RIGHT hand only on a regular basis as I have described in the OP..........this I have to see Please.....Please post video or direct me to where I can see this for myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - Insult Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - Insult You draw and reholster your LEFT strong side holster pistol with you RIGHT hand only on a regular basis as I have described in the OP..........this I have to see Please.....Please post video or direct me to where I can see this for myself Now you are reading things that aren't there. I guess I am not surprised wanting to call a penalty you did not see. I said I draw my off hand pistol with thumb and forefinger. Never said which hand. I do it with my left hand on a pistol in a left hand straight hang holster. Is that unsafe gun handling. That would seem to be less control of the firearm than using the palm of the right hand in the OP. Link to comment
Wyatt Posted June 15, 2014 Author Share Posted June 15, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - Reply to insult Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - Reply to insult Now you are reading things that aren't there. I guess I am not surprised wanting to call a penalty you did not see. I said I draw my off hand pistol with thumb and forefinger. Never said which hand. I do it with my left hand on a pistol in a left hand straight hang holster. Is that unsafe gun handling. That would seem to be less control of the firearm than using the palm of the right hand in the OP. Then why didn't you say LEFT hand. That just being deceptive and misleading. Is how you draw your off hand pistol unsafe gun handling...........don't know, haven't seen you shoot and I don't give crap if I never do. The control issue is your opinion not mine based on what I saw Next you'll be trying to convince me there is no such thing as Unsafe Gun Handling Link to comment
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given Then why didn't you say LEFT hand. That just being deceptive and misleading. Is how you draw your off hand pistol unsafe gun handling...........don't know, haven't seen you shoot and I don't give crap if I never do. The control issue is your opinion not mine based on what I saw Next you'll be trying to convince me there is no such thing as Unsafe Gun Handling Is you are ever on our posse and are spotting, I will ask for a spotter that knows the rules. Link to comment
Wyatt Posted June 15, 2014 Author Share Posted June 15, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given How old are you..........12? My mom said I can't play with you anymore Link to comment
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I will posse with Wyatt any time, any where!!!!!! NEVER seen even a tiny reason not too!!!!!! Insult Wyatt, yu insult me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 lol just Wyatt & Cypress Sun they are magnets for weird s#*t Sure seems that way doesn't it. I think it has alot to do with the location. Some locations are filled with seasoned shooters and many state/regional/world champions..........others have a lot of new(er) shooters that sometimes tend to do off the wall stuff. No knock on the newer shooters, everyone has to learn some where and at some time. All I can say is that some people get a bit "testy" at 1:00 am in the morning. As far as Wyatt goes, hell I insult him all the time.....didn't know that I was insulting Purdy Boy also. Cool, 2 for 1. CS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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